The Death of 'Me-Church'

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Mt 23:27-32

Jesus said,
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites.
You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside,
but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.
Even so, on the outside you appear righteous,
but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

Notice that Jesus pointed out that “looking right” can hide a lot of hypocritical behavior. Just because you look formal and great at mass doesn’t mean you are really fully participating. I would guess that those who are privately judging others on how they are dressed at mass are not doing a whole lot of praying and listening to what is really going on. Maybe those constricting ties and shoes are too much of a distraction to the mass…😉
 
Wishing people would dress formally for Mass does not mean one is a Pharisee. I think it’s one of those ideas (Pharisee-ism) which plucked out of context from the Bible, like “Judge not, lest ye be judged”, which is incorrectly used to excuse self-indulgent behaviour.

I think people take their cue from what’s around them. If most people are smartly dressed, anyone who’s not sticks out and feels self-conscious, so they change.

I read a funny remark on this forum. A poster said that if the chief usher(?) saw that some girls had dressed scantily for Mass, he’d nominate them carry the gifts to the altar, to the priest. They dressed more modestly the next Sunday 🙂
 
Where in scripture does it tell you to do anything else but dress modestly? I’m still seeing in the pews some very immodest and “expensive” clothing being dawned, they are accepted because they have the budget, the modest element apparently is now out the window.
In the New Testament, there was a parable that Our Lord mention where the King invited everone to a banquet and when a a shabbly dressed man came in and the King told the guards to throw him out.

Yes. I understand when the homless come to Mass in their “Only” clothes. Dressing conservatly for Mass is cheeper than buying everyday clothes. If someone can not have at least one decent dress outfit for Mass. There is no excuse for it. Goodwill or any second hand stores you can find contempory clothes that are decent for Mass. Department stores have sales all the time. A simple pair of Dockers pant and a button down dress shirt and casual shoes. You do not have to shell out $1000.00. For about $60.00 you can get a Sunday Mass outfit. Is the Lord worth it?

Even when I am on Vacation at the beach. I dress respectable for Mass. Button down shirt, and dress/ Dockers pants. After Mass I change.
This comes from somone who use to go to Mass in tennis shoes, shorts and a tshirt.
We are going to Visit the Lord. We should treat him with respect.

By the way, how many outfits did they have back in Biblical times?

Does the saying “Sunday Best” come to mind.
 
While we can make general comments about dress for church, it is perhaps not usually wise to make more specific ones unless we know the people involved. Do we know what they have been taught, or the usual practice where they come from? Are they new Christians? Did she have a really bad night with the baby and barely got to church at all? (A situation I particularly identify with at times.) What constitutes casual dress where the person lives (it is different in different places), and even in the person’s social circle? Are they just clueless about clothing conventions, the kind of men who wear shorts and socks and sandals? Are they having some spiritual battle where they are simultaneously thumbing their noses at God and looking for him? Are they on vacation and operating from a limited wardrobe?

I don’t normally feel like I can criticize others dress unless I am in the loop with these kinds of consideration. Generally, I think we should offer clean clothing in a similar style to what would be appropriate at a work site, perhaps one where you were the new employee. So I would have no problem with a farmer coming to church in his newest shirt and pants (even jeans perhaps), all washed and pressed, which in a year will become his regular work clothes. If people want to spend money on nicer things that is ok too, so long as they are not being vain.
 
God sees you and He sees what’s in your heart too.

If you don’t know any better and dress casually, no fault there, I’d say.
If you know the Mass is important but think, “nah, I won’t dress up”, well, one could ask, why?
If you know the Mass is important but deliberately dress in a distracting manner, well …

Personally, I find it fun, in a way, to watch my different emotions battle it out on a hot Sunday: “Tie, no tie, comfortable shoes, formal shoes …”.

Alway glad when I make the extra effort, in the end.
I’m one who knows the Mass is important (I wouldn’t go to as many daily Masses as I do if that weren’t the case) but sometimes thinks ‘nah, I won’t dress up’.

Since you asked why … well, mostly it’s because I’m there to meet God. It’s true He is my King. That means that I, being His child, am a total princess 😛 Now do you really think Prince Charles or Prince Andrew regularly dress formally to meet with their parents, albeit their mother is the Queen of England? Highly doubtful.

Now God is my Father as well. As Jesus taught us to call Him, He is my ‘Abba’, meaning ‘Daddy’. A very endearing and, more importantly, informal term for our almighty God to want us to call Him, no? And one taught us directly from the lips of God incarnate Himself!

I have an earthly ‘Abba’ too, you know. I know that I love him genuinely enough to never give a rats what he wears. I honestly wouldn’t bat an eyelash if he turned up to my wedding in sweats and flipflops, I’d just be glad to have him there. And I believe he feels the same about me.

I don’t believe my heavenly ‘Abba’ could possibly be any less loving in that sense towards His children than I am towards my earthly dad, or he towards me. On the contrary. So it doesn’t make sense to me to think that He cares what’s on our backs in the sense of dressing formally v informally.

Why SHOULD meeting God be an ‘occasion’? Doesn’t that kind of imply that we aren’t always in God’s presence as we ought to be? And always taking that fact to heart as we ought to do?
 
I think you may be presuming too much that you know God’s mind. I’m not comfortable with the ‘God is my easygoing friend’ attitude. I think it’s dangerous. It’s like what Protestants think (or so I’ve heard): “I’m saved already, praise Jesus!”.

I fear His judgement and I hope for His mercy. Even St. Padre Pio was worried about going to Hell, and I’m no saint.

I favour formal dress because of:
  1. The effect on my heart/subconscious/attitude;
  2. The effect on those around me;
  3. As a sign of respect to The Lord; an offering.
I think spiritual progress can be the result of a combination of:

Small (e.g. dress and behaviour in Church),
Medium (e.g. fasting, getting Indulgences) and
Big (e.g. martydom) offerings to God; you want something? What are you offering in exchange?

That’s what sacrifice is: an offering.
You want something? You can whinge about it constantly, by praying*, but **you can also pile on the pressure by:

Fasting,
Giving alms,
Seeking indulgences,
Abstinence,
Confession,
Mass,
Visiting the sick etc.

… A spiritual snowball effect.**

I’m afraid having gone to Missa Cantatas and met those involved in setting them up, I can’t go back to the casual dress I wore before, unless it’s unavoidable. God, being complete within Himself, doesn’t need us humans, but we certainly need Him.

As the cliche goes, ‘every little helps’.

*Which works.
 
What concerns me about the post I’m quoting is that it echoes the attitude that I come across often… we should feel so"lucky" & “blessed” that someone came to Mass…that we shouldn’t expect anything else. That’s just not true. If they do not show a reverent attitude, if they chew gum all during the Liturgy, take it out of their mouth to receive the host, pop it back in after (I actually followed, in the Communion line, a young man who did that.) & wave & wink & high five their friends on the way to their seat, I don’t feel “Lucky” to have them there. My own 4 children would have been “dead meat” if they did that.

If a grown woman appears at Mass in a push-up bra under a sun dress, I’m not “lucky”. If a grown man comes in khaki golf shorts & sandals…all he has to do is leave Mass immediately following Communion…change the sandals for golf shoes & he’s off to the links, that doesn’t make me feel “Blessed”. God deserves the BEST from us & He knows what each individual’s best is, the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, Himself…deserves our best.

BTW., to the poster who said, "when I went to my first TLM I didn’t know what to expect, and I’m glad no one stared at me cause I made mistakes lol…/
Not knowing where the priest is when new to the TLM., not knowing exactly when to genuflect, not sure about when to stand & when to kneel **is not **in the same category as showing disrespect by dressing sloppily. I attended the Tridentine Mass for the first 25 yrs. of my life, I attended Catholic schools 1-12 & STILL I fumbled & stumbled through the Latin Mass when I first started attending again about a year & a half ago. After all, it had been 40 years…these things would not matter to anyone attending because most of us have had the same problem. It takes a few weeks.
You make it sound like I don’t care about reverence in the Mass, but that’s not true… I do care…I was trying to say something else. I’m saying that if someone does show irreverence, whether intentionally or unintentionally, we should still be charitable to them… we SHOULD strive for holiness in the Mass, but that doesn’t give us an excuse to say that these people shouldn’t be at Mass at all. If they’re there, that’s a start. I’m not talking about being ‘tolerant’ with irreverence…but just charitable towards others, regardless of what type of Catholics they are.
 
I think you may be presuming too much that you know God’s mind. I’m not comfortable with the ‘God is my easygoing friend’ attitude. I think it’s dangerous. It’s like what Protestants think (or so I’ve heard): “I’m saved already, praise Jesus!”.
And you are also presuming to know God’s mind when you presume that formal wear in Mass is what He wants.

God is not an easygoing friend, and I’ve certainly never thought of Him as such. God is a loved and loving daddy - His own chosen name for Himself. Which is an entirely different proposition.

Like any father, He certainly won’t let significant matters slide, nor does anyone expect that a father would do so, no matter how loving.

My father, for example, would jump down my throat if I were to do poorly at school, wear skirts that were too short or tops that were too tight, speak rudely to an adult, use vulgar language, even chew food with my mouth open.

So he’s the opposite of easygoing, as I imagine God is too. It’s just that he knows me too well to be impressed or affected by my wearing of casual (but neat and modest) clothing. And again, being that human fathers are made in the image and likeness of God, I can draw my own conclusions. As you do from the analogies of God to earthly kings and rulers, no doubt.
I fear His judgement and I hope for His mercy. Even St. Padre Pio was worried about going to Hell, and I’m no saint.
Who says I don’t worry about going to Hell? I do, so much so that I usually go to confession weekly. I just don’t think that slightly casual (but still neat, clean and modest) clothing in church is in any way going to send me there.
I favour formal dress because of:
  1. The effect on my heart/subconscious/attitude;
  2. The effect on those around me;
  3. As a sign of respect to The Lord; an offering.
Uh huh. And if the effect of clothing were uniform - if everyone had exactly the same reaction, or even a similar one, to themselves or yourself being formally dressed - then you’d have a point that it should be universal.

They don’t, though. For many dressing formally produces vain pride and ego within themselves. Hence St Francis (and me being a Franciscan, of course I see his point) dressing in rags and insisting on his brothers dressing humbly. Hence St Francis deliberately chucking himself into a pigsty before meeting the Pope a second time, after the Holy Father had commented on his unkempt appearance at their initial meeting.

And I know in myself that I have some tendency toward vanity even at the best of times, and that dressing formally tends to fuel that fire. I think it’s an incredibly common failing.

And seeing others formally dressed? It can produce many bad effects - envy and resentment (on the part of those who, rightly or wrongly, assume that formal clothes mean you must be financially well-off), an impression that you might (as you in fact do) look down upon those who are not dressed as you are, an impression of ‘holier-than-thou’-ness.

I’m not saying that the people who have these reactions aren’t themselves at fault, but remember what St Paul says about being a stumbling block to others cuts both ways. And that the formally dressed can be, and are, every bit as much a stumbling block to their brethren as the casually dressed.
I think spiritual progress can be the result of a combination of:
Small (e.g. dress and behaviour in Church),
Medium (e.g. fasting, getting Indulgences) and
Big (e.g. martydom) offerings to God; you want something? What are you offering in exchange?
That’s what sacrifice is: an offering. You want something? You can whinge about it constantly, by praying*, but **you can also pile on the pressure by:
Fasting,
Giving alms,
Seeking indulgences,
Abstinence,
Confession,
Mass,
Visiting the sick etc.
… A spiritual snowball effect.**
I’m afraid having gone to Missa Cantatas and met those involved in setting them up, I can’t go back to the casual dress I wore before, unless it’s unavoidable. God, being complete within Himself, doesn’t need us humans, but we certainly need Him.
As the cliche goes, ‘every little helps’.
Yes, but your ‘every little help’ is every bit as likely be a great big hindrance to the person next to you as a help to them, no matter whether your (or their) dress is formal or casual.

And not everyone, quite obviously, is called on to do the same ‘little things’ in their progress towards God as you, just as you will not be called on to do the same ‘big things’ (martyrdom, say, or bearing debilitating lifelong illness, or what have you) as they are.

Again, to make my position clear, I am not in any way advocating dress that is immodest, stained or torn, advertising a heavy metal rock group or the like.
 
🤷 You lost me.

I just don’t think God wants me to spend my time at Mass worrying about what everyone else is wearing.
If this consumes you and is the only thing you are worrying about I would agree. But to demand others not worry about it at all is the other extreme.
 
You have got to be kidding? Is this for real?
If I’m spending time talking with others about what other people are wearing at Mass, presuming things about their attitude or situation -are we not gossiping about them?

Just something that crossed my mind…
 
Wow, it seems to me that if anyone is guilty of a “Me-Church” mindset here, it’s the author of this rather self-centered, self-righteous, and overwritten blog article who appears to have spent the bulk of time at Mass in judgmental search of material to write about, and not so much in the act of divine worship. Or maybe I didn’t get the memo that attendees at the TLM get to judge others by their hairstyles.
I agree. It was a silly post. Mass-form-preference aside, why is the author so preoccupied with the people he/she just so happened to notice (because they blocked the view of the altar)? Why did the author notice these “self-conscious” people so much that it was necessary to post about it in the forums? Sounds to me that neither party, the self-conscious elderly ladies (if they were indeed self-conscious and not just recent cancer-beaters who were giving thanksgiving to their God for their newly restored, albeit short, hair), nor the others-conscious author of this post, was particularly Christ-conscious. Hmm?
 
If I’m spending time talking with others about what other people are wearing at Mass, presuming things about their attitude or situation -are we not gossiping about them?

Just something that crossed my mind…
I think that all that needs to be said, re the “Death of Me Church” has been said. If not, I don’t think it will be since the thread has been completely derailed.
It’s probably time to put this conversation down. 😉
 
I really don’t even know where to begin. I mean there is so much wrong with everything that was said in that article. For starters though I would have to say that the title gets me the most. I don’t know what it’s trying to say. Is it trying to say that the me-church is dieing and if so then I guess he has no idea what his religion is all about and if he is trying to say that has to die then he really doesn’t know what it’s about. I mean what in any text would say that church in any way is about just you. It has never been about just the one. I mean Jesus even said anywhere there is two people speaking about the lord is holy ground and therefor a church so in just that aspect it can’t be a me church because you need at least 2 people to make it a church so how could it be a me church unless your not a believer and if so then it’s not church it’s just you talking. Do you think that Jesus would have ever talked to himself about what God wanted people to do, think, or be like. I don’t think so. I can’t say for sure because I wasn’t there but I’m guessing that would be a no. As for the part about what they wear and what they do at church I mean come on do you really think that just because they had short hair and didn’t dress the way that you do that they aren’t true to what they believe. If what you look like and what you wear is what makes you what you are then i guess that you wear the same types of cloths all the time and your kids do to. I’m guessing that you don’t so that ether means that you believe and worship what you do at church and only at church. If that is true then you are not what you say you are. I mean do you really think that God is sitting up in Heaven and watching us go to church and saying to Himself that woman isn’t wearing what I told them to. I doubt that’s what He is doing. If that is what he is doing then I guess noone is doing right. If you read what He wants for us to do in church from the old testament then you will see that noone should be in church in this day. I mean it says that if you defaecate then you are unclean and if you are unclean then you are not a loud in church and you can’t say that you or one of your kids hasn’t done that on the day of church or even during church so you are just as wrong as those two lady’s would be if thats what he wanted. Church isn’t some place you go to prove you are worthy He knows if you are or not thats not what church is for. Church is to learn what you need to learn and to teach what you can not to judge or put people down. Jesus would never have done that. Do you really think that He would have said what you did about those two lady’s no He would have at most told them what they were doing that was wrong and tried to teach them the right way of doing it. Jesus never judged and He even said that it was not for us to judge but to teach. Nowhere in the Bible does it say how to look in church other then in the old testament and most of that was thrown out when Jesus came. Noone dresses the way that the bible says that we should for church but when Jesus came He said that He was the new way and that the laws of old where no more. To say what you did is to say that God only judges you by what you do in church and if that’s true then why follow His laws all the time we would only have to do so in church. To me you sould like the one that has the problem not the two lady’s. How do you know what they have or do. You don’t and that’s why it’s not our place to judge it’s His.
 
You made some really good points, StephenEpo, but do you think you could break up future posts into paragraphs a bit more? My eyes started going funny.
 
The blogger’s tone was so self-righteous and the comments about the hairstyle of the two older ladies was so gratuitously snarky that it kind of negates any positive observations he may have.

He should have been more recollected and focused on the Mass rather than looking around for stuff to nit-pik about on his blog. As other posters have mentioned, Jesus wouldn’t have judged them. This type of attitude would defintely keep me from visiting a TLM.
 
The blogger’s tone was so self-righteous and the comments… so gratuitously snarky that it kind of negates any positive observations he may have.

As other posters have mentioned, Jesus wouldn’t have judged them.
Pot…meet kettle. This type of moral superiority keeps me away from the Novus Ordo.
 
Pot…meet kettle. This type of moral superiority keeps me away from the Novus Ordo.
amen…isn’t that the truth. We’ve put up with moral indignation for decades now and just as soon as you start punching back, the aggressor cries foul.
 
amen…isn’t that the truth. We’ve put up with moral indignation for decades now and just as soon as you start punching back, the aggressor cries foul.
One wonders what draws them to this Traditional forum?
 
The blogger’s tone was so self-righteous and the comments about the hairstyle of the two older ladies was so gratuitously snarky that it kind of negates any positive observations he may have.

He should have been more recollected and focused on the Mass rather than looking around for stuff to nit-pik about on his blog. ** As other posters have mentioned, Jesus wouldn’t have judged them. **This type of attitude would defintely keep me from visiting a TLM.
The above statement is ridiculous. Jesus DID judge:

Matthew 33…"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

Jesus** IS** God…the third person of the Trinity. If God won’t judge our lives immediately after death…who will?
 
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