The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Walking_Home]

Both changes are required. One without the other is failure. This is what the Church teaches.

If you want to disagree, you must provide good solid reason. So far your arguments have mostly been illogical.

Examples:-

“Women in countries with strict clothing still get abused so its not whats required”

Why is this fallacious?

Because it assumes that abuse is only caused by lustful men. It could be caused by multiple reasons. The church teaches that it can be caused by lustful men as well as immodest women.

---

The fact – that in communities and societies where strict clothing is the norm --yet sexual sin still occurs --says the clothes do Not deter lust. The Church teaches – that no one can hold another accountable for one’s sin. Sin is our own personal choice.

 

[Debora123]

No problem. I hope you appreciate my honesty on this matter. As you say here, people usually secretly say bad things. Not outwardly.

I didn’t say “people usually secretly say bad things.” Let’s not start this “putting words into my mouth” trend again, please.

But you don’t think you look a bit angry in that one?

To be quite honestly, I think I look pretty. I actually really like that bridal picture of myself.

Btw, you are the first person I met that shares their wedding photos on a public forum. You do know that these threads stay on forever right?

I have nothing to hide.

 

[LilyM]

Really? Well that’s strange. I can’t remember the last time I went to a Catholic wedding in a Catholic Church where the Bride’s dress wasn’t strapless.

My wedding dress sure was, so were those of all my 5 bridesmaids.

…Now I get to sit here and wait for all the criticism thrown at my church and all the other church’s around the nation that have apparently “gone down hill.”

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1146&pictureid=9801

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1146&pictureid=9459

All I can say on the matter is that

a) you wouldn’t get into an audience with the Pope in the Vatican, nor into St Peters’ Basilica, with uncovered shoulders.

Which is why my first thought on the topless native women earlier was that JPII would have had no idea and may well not have approved, since the Pope surely sets the rules on what is appropriate at his audiences.

b) when I graduated my all-girls Catholic high school, an occasion at which our Bishop presided, we were not allowed to wear anything backless, strapless or black (why not black? No idea.)

Draw your own conclusions as to the significance of any of this.

 

[Debora123]

I have to say. Even though I grew up in the Baptist and Pentecostal Church, for the past 6 or so years, I was attending a Reformed church. Really nice people and great ministries, helping the poor etc. However, it is definitely an “I’m okay, you’re okay” type of church.

I am very surprised and a bit disappointed to find the same liberal, almost new-agey viewpoints in some of these threads.

If by " liberal and new agey" you mean different views as yourself about what’s modest, and giving people the benefit of the doubt when seeing them dressed a certain way, then I suppose you would be correct.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi TL,
You and I may have differing views but from what I have read of your posts, I do not think we differ on fundamental morals and ethics.

Well, this is true. I don’t buy the “let’s protect men from sin” viewpoint and I don’t believe in denigrating women in any way, obviously. However, I do believe both men and women know when they’re wearing things that are immodest. It just so happens that we women have a lot more to look out for because, we have more interesting bodies.

For me, the primary reason for modesty is that we are to be the lights of the world and we need to be beyond reproach in all. Wearing skimpy clothing that puts our sexuality front and center is wrong.

In the words of Chris Brown, “That ain’t right”.

 

[TrueLight]

If by " liberal and new agey" you mean different views as yourself about what’s modest, and giving people the benefit of the doubt when seeing them dressed a certain way, then I suppose you would be correct.

Not the different points about modesty, more the “live and let live” viewpoint or as WalkingHome would say, viewing things with a “mind of darkness”.

 

[LilyM]

---

The fact – that in communities and societies where strict clothing is the norm --yet sexual sin still occurs --says the clothes do Not deter lust. The Church teaches – that no one can hold another accountable for one’s sin. Sin is our own personal choice.

Yet the Church DOES teach that dressing immodestly is a sin. It doesn’t, to my knowledge, define ‘immodest’ as ‘purposely worn in order to incite lust in the opposite sex’ or ‘which DOES in fact incite lust in the opposite sex’.

That is because there are many reasons to dress modestly - one being that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. And as the Tabernacle is always kept closed and locked (and often covered) and the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem was always screened off by curtains, we cover and protect that which is sacred.

Which is the BODY, or the most part of it, and not just the GENITALS!

 

[Nate13]

It just so happens that we women have a lot more to look out for because, we have more interesting bodies.

Are you saying women have more gifts in that regard?!?

 

[TrueLight]

Are you saying women have more gifts in that regard?!?

 

[Debora123]

Have they ALWAYS respected you? You 100% sure of that? Certainly they might not be disrespectful to your face if they know you won’t stand for it, but all that shows is that they are cunning, not necessarily pure hearted …

I love my friends and trust them. I will tell you something I told another poster:

“Well, it’s a good thing I know my friends better than you know my friends. Therefore I think I may have a better shot of actually knowing of what type of things they would or would not do when I am missing.”

Also, you seem to be thinking I dress so immodestly and somehow stand out or something. I dress in the exact same, casual, climate appropriate, activity appropriate way as every other girl here. Nothing I do makes me stand out or look different or immodest or scandalous. If they talk badly about me (which they don’t) then they talk badly about every other girl in the state.

Men respect me because of the way I carry myself and respect myself… and my morals. Men can sense that and they pick up on all those signals. They are not dumb animals who don’t have brains.

My own experience is this - about 15 years ago when I was rather more full of myself, I flashed more flesh than I do now. I certainly attracted MORE men … but not nicer or more pure-hearted ones.

Not that all were terrible. really, just that I had to sort through a lot of toads to get to the princes. And some of the princes … well, sometimes turned out not to be so completely princely after all.

So flashing flesh is only something I’d do if I were after quantity of attention rather than quality. Just sayin’

Well apparently I’ve attracted a pretty good QUALITY husband, so I guess I’m doing things right.

 

[Debora123]

All I can say on the matter is that

a) you wouldn’t get into an audience with the Pope in the Vatican, nor into St Peters’ Basilica, with uncovered shoulders.

Which is why my first thought on the topless native women earlier was that JPII would have had no idea and may well not have approved, since the Pope surely sets the rules on what is appropriate at his audiences.

b) when I graduated my all-girls Catholic high school, an occasion at which our Bishop presided, we were not allowed to wear anything backless, strapless or black (why not black? No idea.)

Draw your own conclusions as to the significance of any of this.

a. The dress code for the Vatican is not deemed to be the dress code for every place or even every Church, neither is it deemed as the only appropriate way to dress at any given place.

b. Your high school had a dress code too. Your point?. My Church has a dress code of its own. I wasn’t breaking it.

I see no significance.

 

[LilyM]

Men respect me because of the way I carry myself and respect myself… and my morals. Men can sense that and they pick up on all those signals. They are not dumb animals who don’t have brains.

Did I say they were dumb?

On the contrary, they are (or some) no better than very CUNNING animals, just as some women are. And in the same way can create a false impression of being nice, decent, genuine people if it serves a purpose. Such as getting near a good-looking person of the opposite gender?

Hey, if all those massively dysfunctional Hollywood actors can appear ‘normal’ in their movies and interviews, why not?

Well apparently I’ve attracted a pretty good QUALITY husband, so I guess I’m doing things right.

Well, you might’ve attracted him sooner if you DID stand out by reason of more modest dress, rather than looking exactly like every other dime-a-dozen girl out there? Something to ponder.

 

[Debora123]

Not the different points about modesty, more the “live and let live” viewpoint or as WalkingHome would say, viewing things with a “mind of darkness”.

Live and let live view point?

WH has been stressing this whole time that we need to teach our young to respect each other as human beings regardless of what they are wearing. I don’t see this as being a live and let live view point at all. I find this quite legitimate.

 

[LilyM]

a. The dress code for the Vatican is not deemed to be the dress code for every place or even every Church, neither is it deemed as the only appropriate way to dress at any given place.

b. Your high school had a dress code too. Your point?. My Church has a dress code of its own. I wasn’t breaking it.

I see no significance.

So St Peter’s and my school have a more stringent code - my point is that we need to be asking why.

Are they more important places than your church and therefore one should dress up better for them? No.

Are they just places where joyless soulless party-poopers who enjoy hassling others about their clothing tend to congregate? That’s the last thing I’d call JPII, or the people around him.

Or do the people there perhaps just care a tad more about modesty? Can’t answer that one, not knowing the folks at your church. Some parishes are definitely a lot more lax on all kinds of matters, including doctrine and dogma as well as discipline, than others.

 

[Debora123]

Did I say they were dumb?

On the contrary, they are (or some) no better than very CUNNING animals, just as some women are. And in the same way can create a false impression of being nice, decent, genuine people if it serves a purpose. Such as getting near a good-looking person of the opposite gender?

Until my husband comes out as a horrible monster who has been cheating on me and playing me this entire time… or even just turns out to be less the man I thought he was, I will say that I have pretty good judgement.

(but that will never happen )

Well, you might’ve attracted him sooner if you DID stand out by reason of more modest dress, rather than looking exactly like every other dime-a-dozen girl out there? Something to ponder.

Haha, he’s sitting right across the room from me. I read him this and he just laughed and shook his head.

 

[Irish_Eyes_826]

Debora- I think you looked beautiful on your wedding day & I also love your bouquet. I always admire the way you are so down-to-earth when discussing modesty.

As a swimmer, lifeguard, and general lover of tank-tops I have yet to understand what it is about some people and their issues with shoulders. I have a few brothers and plenty of guy friends and they’ve never said anything about shoulders being too sexy.

 

[Debora123]

So St Peter’s and my school have a more stringent code - my point is that we need to be asking why.

Are they more important places than your church and therefore one should dress up better for them? No.

Are they just places where joyless soulless party-poopers who enjoy hassling others about their clothing tend to congregate? That’s the last thing I’d call JPII, or the people around him.

Or do the people there perhaps just care a tad more about modesty? Can’t answer that one, not knowing the folks at your church. Some parishes are definitely a lot more lax on all kinds of matters, including doctrine and dogma as well as discipline, than others.

Well good, then I suppose it is best for us not to make any sort of rash assumptions.

 

[Debora123]

Debora- I think you looked beautiful on your wedding day & I also love your bouquet. I always admire the way you are so down-to-earth when discussing modesty.

As a swimmer, lifeguard, and general lover of tank-tops I have yet to understand what it is about some people and their issues with shoulders. I have a few brothers and plenty of guy friends and they’ve never said anything about shoulders being too sexy.

Thank you for the compliments!

The only time I’ve ever heard a man complain about shoulders is on this forum anyway. And I know plenty of men.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yet the Church DOES teach that dressing immodestly is a sin. It doesn’t, to my knowledge, define ‘immodest’ as ‘purposely worn in order to incite lust in the opposite sex’ or ‘which DOES in fact incite lust in the opposite sex’.

That is because there are many reasons to dress modestly - one being that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. And as the Tabernacle is always kept closed and locked (and often covered) and the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem was always screened off by curtains, we cover and protect that which is sacred.

Which is the BODY, or the most part of it, and not just the GENITALS!

---

Since the Church teaches that modesty varies from culture to culture --it would create a dilemma – that a mode of dress would not be sinful in one culture – yet sinful in another. So sin in one place – and not in another. Doesn’t look like this would give the Church credibility. And as far as whose body is the temple of the Holy Spirit-- it is not something I can tell by looking – only God can see their soul, heart and mind.

 

[passer_by]

I didn’t say “people usually secretly say bad things.” Let’s not start this “putting words into my mouth” trend again, please.

You did say that people would usually say you look good but say or think negative stuff in secret, no? I mean these are your words

“Usually people are polite and say nice things, even if they secretly may think I look bad”

To be quite honestly, I think I look pretty. I actually really like that bridal picture of myself.

Well you can look pretty and look angry at the same time

I
I have nothing to hide.

I know you don’t. I am just saying other people might not enjoy seeing them all the time … kidding