The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[severus68]

LOL Debora, you and Severus are always smack in the middle of these modesty threads.

Hi TL,
Have tried to keep out of them but when I read about women being the cause of men’s lust unless they act in a certain way to earn the ‘respect’ of men and posters being insulted, it gets my gall. I am for respecting both women and men. Men are also made to be helpless things lead by their gonads on threads like this which is very insulting to men.You and I may have differing views but from what I have read of your posts, I do not think we differ on fundamental morals and ethics.

 

[LilyM]

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Whaddya gonna do? We start teaching – not to view another – with the mind of darkness. So even when – encountering girls/women like those you saw – lust would be less likely to immerge from the heart and mind.

Wonderful. If we do that we ought to eliminate lust completely - in about 5000 years, if we’re lucky.

My country, Australia, has achieved pretty good results as far as decreasing rates of smoking among the population over the last 10 years or so. Did they do this by educating people about the dangers of smoking? Of course.

Did they do an even smarter thing by combining that education campaign with measures like banning tobacco advertising and sponsorship of sporting events, enacting laws limiting the number of public places people can smoke etc? Absolutely. Put those cigarettes out of sight as much as possible and the incidence of smoking lessens.

For the same reason there has been huge campaigning to put restrictions on advertisement of junk food during children’s programs. Monkey see, monkey do. Put that junk food out of sight as much as you can and the incidence of overeating and obesity lessens.

Put that flesh out of sight as much as possible and the temptations to lust as well as incidence of all the other sexual sins will dramatically decrease. I’ve found this from my own experience when I am more careful about the sexual content of what I watch and listen to - as well as what I wear.

 

[severus68]

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It is what is present in a person’s mind – that causes one to lust. Lust comes from the inside. It is not the exposed flesh-- but how people have been “taught” to view that exposed flesh. Every time someone says – “look at the “immodest” person” and/or makes any type of derogatory description of a person for the clothes worn—they teaching to internalize a negative image of a human being – that can be expressed via lust.

Agreed.

 

[severus68]

I don’t think it’s necessarily “wrong” to want attention from the opposite gender. Young people, when single, WANT to look attractive to the opposite sex - it’s in the human nature, and it’s not a bad thing.

Now, there is a huge difference between wanting a boy to look at you and think you are attractive, and wanting a boy to start lusting. Remember. The 2 are 2 very different things.

Did the girls wear the shorts with heals specifically because they wanted men to lust after them and see them as nothing more than an object?

Or did they wear the shorts with heals because they thought it looked good, fashionable, and made them look attractive to the men?

We will never know. It is best not to jump to conclusions and make any rash assumptions. Our part is to remember to treat them as the human beings they are, regardless of what they are wearing and why they are wearing it. Do you not agree?

Well said.

 

[Debora123]

Wonderful. If we do that we ought to eliminate lust completely - in about 5000 years, if we’re lucky.

My country, Australia, has achieved pretty good results as far as decreasing rates of smoking among the population over the last 10 years or so. Did they do this by educating people about the dangers of smoking? Of course.

Did they do an even smarter thing by combining that education campaign with measures like banning tobacco advertising and sponsorship of sporting events, enacting laws limiting the number of public places people can smoke etc? Absolutely. Put those cigarettes out of sight as much as possible and the incidence of smoking lessens.

For the same reason there has been huge campaigning to put restrictions on advertisement of junk food during children’s programs. Monkey see, monkey do. Put that junk food out of sight as much as you can and the incidence of overeating and obesity lessens.

Put that flesh out of sight as much as possible and the temptations to lust as well as incidence of all the other sexual sins will dramatically decrease. I’ve found this from my own experience when I am more careful about the sexual content of what I watch and listen to - as well as what I wear.

I see what you’re saying, but I honestly don’t think it works exactly the same way with lust.

Think about the Taliban, for example. “The flesh” is pretty much non existent in their culture, yet those men are probably amongst the most lustful and women objectifying group of people in our planet.

Lust is in the mind. Lust is what the mind MAKES of the flesh. Not of the flesh in and of itself.

 

[Walking_Home]

Wonderful. If we do that we ought to eliminate lust completely - in about 5000 years, if we’re lucky.

My country, Australia, has achieved pretty good results as far as decreasing rates of smoking among the population over the last 10 years or so. Did they do this by educating people about the dangers of smoking? Of course.

Did they do an even smarter thing by combining that education campaign with measures like banning tobacco advertising and sponsorship of sporting events, enacting laws limiting the number of public places people can smoke etc? Absolutely. Put those cigarettes out of sight as much as possible and the incidence of smoking lessens.

For the same reason there has been huge campaigning to put restrictions on advertisement of junk food during children’s programs. Monkey see, monkey do. Put that junk food out of sight as much as you can and the incidence of overeating and obesity lessens.

Put that flesh out of sight as much as possible and the temptations to lust as well as incidence of all the other sexual sins will dramatically decrease. I’ve found this from my own experience when I am more careful about the sexual content of what I watch and listen to - as well as what I wear.

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In my country – we had a different experience when some states banned alcohol. Those that wanted to drink found ways around the ban. We had what was called bootlegging – that still made it possible to acquire the drink. Here in Texas – smoking is banned within certain establishments – but those that smoke – just go outside. You see – those who want to continue to drink or smoke – will find a way to do just that — until they make the personal decision to stop. So even the decreasing rates of smoking in your country – came from people’s personal decision to stop and/or not to take it up in the first place.

 

[severus68]

Wonderful. If we do that we ought to eliminate lust completely - in about 5000 years, if we’re lucky.

My country, Australia, has achieved pretty good results as far as decreasing rates of smoking among the population over the last 10 years or so. Did they do this by educating people about the dangers of smoking? Of course.

Did they do an even smarter thing by combining that education campaign with measures like banning tobacco advertising and sponsorship of sporting events, enacting laws limiting the number of public places people can smoke etc? Absolutely. Put those cigarettes out of sight as much as possible and the incidence of smoking lessens.

For the same reason there has been huge campaigning to put restrictions on advertisement of junk food during children’s programs. Monkey see, monkey do. Put that junk food out of sight as much as you can and the incidence of overeating and obesity lessens.

Put that flesh out of sight as much as possible and the temptations to lust as well as incidence of all the other sexual sins will dramatically decrease. I’ve found this from my own experience when I am more careful about the sexual content of what I watch and listen to - as well as what I wear.

There is a big difference. Cigarettes are bad. Junk food is kept away from schools because children have difficulty making good judgement and saying no.

The body is not bad or evil. Unless someone is going around naked (unless in a restricted nudist colony) or topless and botttomless, who decides what is wrong/immodest? In Saudi they have decided women must wear the burqa. I may fine someone’s dress (male or female) lacking taste but I would not presume to judge that person.

What we need to do is not to sexualise everything, teach boys to respect all women, not classify women as those they may date but never marry and those they marrry, not use this Madonna/whore dichotomy.

 

[Walking_Home]

I see what you’re saying, but I honestly don’t think it works exactly the same way with lust.

Think about the Taliban, for example. “The flesh” is pretty much non existent in their culture, yet those men are probably amongst the most lustful and women objectifying group of people in our planet.

Lust is in the mind. Lust is what the mind MAKES of the flesh. Not of the flesh in and of itself.

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Exactly.

 

[LilyM]

I see what you’re saying, but I honestly don’t think it works exactly the same way with lust.

Think about the Taliban, for example. “The flesh” is pretty much non existent in their culture, yet those men are probably amongst the most lustful and women objectifying group of people in our planet.

Lust is in the mind. Lust is what the mind MAKES of the flesh. Not of the flesh in and of itself.

This point made me think. As a quick and very rough reference point, I took a look at some rape statistics - nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita.

Among the worst 10 countries, 6 are Western ‘progressive’ countries, none are Muslim. Neither Afghanistan nor the United States make the top 50, but Canada does, as do most of the Western European countries.

I don’t know how much of this might have to do with underreporting - especially given the propensity in Muslim countries to blame the victim quite frequently.

Put it this way - women in Afghanistan and other countries like Saudi Arabia are more restricted than Western women in lots of ways - denied education, votes, jobs and the like, married against their will etc.

I have yet to see any statistics indicating that they are more ‘lusted after’ in any way though. Can you point to any evidence indicating this - higher rates of sexual assault, for example? Or marital infidelity? Or use or production of pornography?

 

[severus68]

I think you have misunderstood the teaching on modesty.

Culture can be good or bad. Western culture right now is immoral i.e. decadent in the sense that it promotes immoral activity. Many of the cultures in the East will be ready to provide you academic understanding of the state of Western culture if you are so interested.

So to say that ‘what I wear is ok because my culture approves of it’ is not always ok. It might actually be an immoral culture in which case you dressing a certain way is actually immoral.

That is a blatant exaggeration about the West. Eastern culture is not perfecteither , it is just that rot is hidden and there is intimidation and suppression of free will in some countries.

 

[severus68]

This point made me think. As a quick and very rough reference point, I took a look at some rape statistics - nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita.

Among the worst 10 countries, 6 are Western ‘progressive’ countries, none are Muslim. Neither Afghanistan nor the United States make the top 50, but Canada does, as do most of the Western European countries.

I don’t know how much of this might have to do with underreporting - especially given the propensity in Muslim countries to blame the victim quite frequently.

Put it this way - women in Afghanistan and other countries like Saudi Arabia are more restricted than Western women in lots of ways - denied education, votes, jobs and the like, married against their will etc.

I have yet to see any statistics indicating that they are more ‘lusted after’ in any way though. Can you point to any evidence indicating this - higher rates of sexual assault, for example?

Of course there is under reporting and what right thinking people would consider rape is considered the fault of the women. I will not set out what happens in Saudi and what some Saudi men do for outside sex, you would be able to read about it.

 

[Walking_Home]

This point made me think. As a quick and very rough reference point, I took a look at some rape statistics - nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita.

Among the worst 10 countries, 6 are Western ‘progressive’ countries, none are Muslim. Neither Afghanistan nor the United States make the top 50, but Canada does, as do most of the Western European countries.

**I don’t know how much of this might have to do with underreporting - especially given the propensity in Muslim countries to blame the victim quite frequently.
**
Put it this way - women in Afghanistan and other countries like Saudi Arabia are more restricted than Western women in lots of ways - denied education, votes, jobs and the like, married against their will etc.

I have yet to see any statistics indicating that they are more ‘lusted after’ in any way though. Can you point to any evidence indicating this - higher rates of sexual assault, for example?

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Well – blaming the victim – in itself would be a major deterrent in reporting the rape – wouldn’t you say. I think I’ve read – that in some places the victim —even needs to produce several witnesses to the rape.

 

[Debora123]

This point made me think. As a quick and very rough reference point, I took a look at some rape statistics - nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita.

Among the worst 10 countries, 6 are Western ‘progressive’ countries, none are Muslim. Neither Afghanistan nor the United States make the top 50, but Canada does, as do most of the Western European countries.

I don’t know how much of this might have to do with underreporting - especially given the propensity in Muslim countries to blame the victim quite frequently.

Put it this way - women in Afghanistan and other countries like Saudi Arabia are more restricted than Western women in lots of ways - denied education, votes, jobs and the like, married against their will etc.

I have yet to see any statistics indicating that they are more ‘lusted after’ in any way though. Can you point to any evidence indicating this - higher rates of sexual assault, for example? Or marital infidelity? Or use or production of pornography?

You do understand that if a women gets raped in those muslim countries, she is considered “damaged goods,” cannot get married, right? Furthermore, her family has the right to kill her even though the rape wasn’t her fault.

Many of those rape victims come to the US to get a vaginoplasty… where the surgeon will surgically repair the hymen so that she is able to bleed on her wedding night as a virgin would… Thus keeping her secret safe. Her life depends on it.

I believe rape actually happens a lot MORE in those countries, but they just don’t come forward to talk about it or to press charges… because they can’t.

Also, the western world consists mainly of 1st world countries as opposed to 3rd world countries. Meaning rape cases are much more likely to be reported and documented, even if they probably happen a lot less often than in the less privileged societies.

 

[LilyM]

Of course there is under reporting and what right thinking people would consider rape is considered the fault of the women. I will not set out what happens in Saudi and what some Saudi men do for outside sex, you would be able to read about it.

So are you presuming based on this that rape is MORE frequent in Muslim countries? Surely no-one has any justification to assume so simply because we can assume that they are underreported.

I am extremely dubious that anything happens in Saudi Arabia that is different than practices that can be found in the West. There is nothing new under the sun as far as sexual practices go.

The only question that remains then is one of frequency and public acceptance and even promotion. Individual incidents are not what I’m talking about - every country has its abnormal and horrific sex crimes.

Are there red light districts in Riyadh that are tourist havens for men from other parts of the country or even interntional tourists?

Multiple cable tv stations broadcasting an endless stream of home-grown and produced porn?

Home-produced pornographic magazines fairly easily available in the majority of newsagencies?

Advertisements for all manner of ‘adult services’ openly printed in the majority of Saudi papers? XXX shops freely advertising themselves as such in every suburb of every town of any size?

 

[Debora123]

I have yet to see any statistics indicating that they are more ‘lusted after’ in any way though. Can you point to any evidence indicating this - higher rates of sexual assault, for example? Or marital infidelity? Or use or production of pornography?

As for this, no, I do not have any “documented proof” that there is more sexual sin happening in those countries than in here. But the women there are objectified and dehumanized to a much MUCH greater degree. Seen as property and not human beings with rights. I do not need documentation for that.

I also know from personal experiences in an American University, that a lot of the foreign students from the middle east who come to the US for their degree go crazy after American women just for sex, since they can’t get sex from the girls back home. They do not have the intention of marrying these American girls, because their intention is to go back to their country and marry a virgin girl. They just use them for sex.

Their hearts don’t change, and are still dark and filled with lust… regardless of the burqas.

 

[LilyM]

As for this, no, I do not have any “documented proof” that there is more sexual sin happening in those countries than in here. But the women there are objectified and dehumanized to a much MUCH greater degree. Seen as property and not human beings with rights. I do not need documentation for that.

I also know from personal experiences in an American University, that a lot of the foreign students from the middle east who come to the US for their degree go crazy after American women just for sex, since they can’t get sex from the girls back home. They do not have the intention of marrying these American girls, because their intention is to go back to their country and marry a virgin girl. They just use them for sex.

Their hearts don’t change, and are still dark and filled with lust… regardless of the burqas.

Funny. My experience in Australian university, where I got to know lots of foreign as well as domestic students, was that most all of them were ‘only after one thing’ and most all of them had no intentions of settling down whilst studying. I certainly saw nothing worse in this regard from the foreign students, including those from the Middle East.

 

[Walking_Home]

So are you presuming based on this that rape is MORE frequent in Muslim countries? Surely no-one has any justification to assume so simply because we can assume that they are underreported.

I am extremely dubious that anything happens in Saudi Arabia that is different than practices that can be found in the West. There is nothing new under the sun as far as sexual practices go.

The only question that remains then is one of frequency and public acceptance and even promotion. Individual incidents are not what I’m talking about - every country has its abnormal and horrific sex crimes.

Are there red light districts in Riyadh that are tourist havens for men from other parts of the country or even interntional tourists?

Multiple cable tv stations broadcasting an endless stream of home-grown and produced porn?

Home-produced pornographic magazines fairly easily available in the majority of newsagencies?

Advertisements for all manner of ‘adult services’ openly printed in the majority of Saudi papers? XXX shops freely advertising themselves as such in every suburb of every town of any size?

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Here is one report – of how Muslim girls/women are abused and forced into the sex trade. It does seem to be talking about “isolated” instances either.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2006_101-suppl/rc_pc_migrants_pom101-suppl_migraz-ebegbulem.html

 

[LilyM]

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Here is one report – of how Muslim girls/women are abused and forced into the sex trade. It does seem to be talking about “isolated” instances either.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2006_101-suppl/rc_pc_migrants_pom101-suppl_migraz-ebegbulem.html

So are many many women from Eastern Europe and Asia - neither of which have stringent clothing policies or Islam as the state religion!

Not to mention more than a few home-grown American gals, of course.

So you still have no proof that this is MORE prevalent in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Debora123]

Funny. My experience in Australian university, where I got to know lots of foreign as well as domestic students, was that most all of them were ‘only after one thing’ and most all of them had no intentions of settling down whilst studying. I certainly saw nothing worse in this regard from the foreign students, including those from the Middle East.

Well then there you go. This is precisely the point we were trying to make. Just because a man resides in a place where the women will always be covered up, does not mean he’ll have any less lust in his heart than the men here.

 

[Castello]

Have the guts to name the person who are referring to, why dont you?

I did not know the name of the person until they identified themselves - one can use any picture as an avatar. I found it quite ironic, that is all.