The deaths of the Egyptian fristborns

[kimmielittle]

No, I think I’ve correctly identified you as a person who doesn’t want to argue with someone who can see through childish comparisons.

I’m sorry, I am a kid and was trying to keep it simple.

You are aware that most people throw logic, definitions, and all sensibility out the window when it comes to religion and politics, aren’t you?

Agreed, many people do…but to assume that I have, goes against the logic you so love.

An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in any gods*, and an agnostic (as it is usually defined) is a person who believes that knowledge of gods is impossible to obtain. It is possible for agnostics to be part of a cult, though most religious people believe that their god of choice can be known insofar as it is convenient for them. However, there’s no such thing as a “cult of agnosticism.” You can’t form a religion, an establishment whose goal is to worship a deity, with either atheism or agnosticism. Theism and the appropriate politics are the only requirements.

*There are two variants of atheism: weak or implicit atheism, and strong or explicit atheism. The former only lacks belief in gods, while the latter definitively declares that they don’t exist. I am the former, so no burden of proof is required of me, since I don’t have to prove anything to lack belief.

Then I must ask the question…why are you here on a Christian forum? For the life of me, i don’t see the logic.

???

I don’t see how the fallacy I mention in my signature is applicable here. The point of the fallacy is that the merit of an argument is founded only on the rules of inference and the evidence supporting its premises, not the validity of unrelated arguments. This has nothing to do with our situation.

Sorry, That part was meant to go with the OP topic…logic. I can see I confused issues when I placed it.

That’s true. I first posted saying that you shouldn’t follow someone you don’t understand, but then you persisted by contradicting yourself and claiming you do understand God and have evidence that he exists. Either he’s understood or he isn’t, you can’t have it both ways.

I don’t think I’ve said anything contrary to my original post. We do not know God’s mind. I don’t think I’ve said I have proof that He exists…But if you are asking me if I personally believe if He exists for me…I would state He does. Because I don’t need to personally put my hands in his wounds…doesn’t make me any less logical then you - in denying Him.

IMHO the superstition argument used by atheists can work both ways…I maybe called superstitious because I believe…I see atheists as superstitious people - afraid to believe.

As always, just my thoughts
Have a great day

 

[chosen_people]

Incidentally, the story begins with the Egyptians under Pharaoh’s orders to kill every single Hebrew male child not just the first born.In other words a desire to totally eliminate the seed of the nation of Israel.

There are two interesting aspects of the plague. The first is the importance and centrality of the first born in Egyptian pagan society. I was somewhat surprised that no one brought up why God also killed the first born of all the animals. The second aspect is the active role that every Israelite had to play in order to be spared this plague - to be passed over. This is not just a story of retribution and punishment, of the God of Israel against mighty pagan Egypt it is a story of affirmation of the nation of Israel and God.

Here are two links which discuss this plague:
aish.com/tp/i/moha/48937697.html
biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/bo/kra.html

 

[miguel]

Incidentally, the story begins with the Egyptians under Pharaoh’s orders to kill every single Hebrew male child not just the first born.In other words a desire to totally eliminate the seed of the nation of Israel.

There are two interesting aspects of the plague. The first is the importance and centrality of the first born in Egyptian pagan society. I was somewhat surprised that no one brought up why God also killed the first born of all the animals. The second aspect is the active role that every Israelite had to play in order to be spared this plague - to be passed over. This is not just a story of retribution and punishment, of the God of Israel against mighty pagan Egypt it is a story of affirmation of the nation of Israel and God.

I think it’s also important to note that this was the 10th plague…which was necessitated by the 9th plague’s failure to convince Pharaoh and so on. God increased the pressure, plague by plague, to get Pharaoh’s cooperation. The 10th plague demonstrated the utter futility of messing with God. But he did give Pharoah plenty of chances.

 

[Salonika]

Cristian B:

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

Quote:
"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. -Exodus 12:12

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

Quote:
But the firstborns did not do anything. Killing every firstborn logically means He ordered the death of innocent infants. If He were just, He’d have killed the guilty, not their kids who didn’t do anything. All of that just to get the Jews to trust Him…yet, He could have just told them. He could have appeared as a colossal golem and introduced himself as God, then told them of his power. This circumstance does not warrant killing babies.

What should I tell him?

This is a story which has always concerned and horrified me - the 1950’s movie “The Ten Commendments” with Pharaoh mourning his son’s death made a great impact on me and I could never understand why people thought it showed God in a good light and was something to celebrate. To me it showed God as a tyrant.

I took part in a previous thread on this topic and look forward to reading this one in depth (I have just skimmed through it) and seeing what light is thrown on this topic. For even if the story is taken as myth it portrays a very, very chilling God.

 

[Oreoracle]

I’m sorry, I am a kid and was trying to keep it simple.

You too, huh? It’s nice to see another younger member here. I’m 16.

Agreed, many people do…but to assume that I have, goes against the logic you so love.

I haven’t assumed anything, I was just telling you that invoking the crowd is futile when the crowd doesn’t know what they’re talking about. And if you weren’t trying to set the stage for an argument from popularity, then your statement was a red herring (an irrelevant piece of information). Either way, “many people feel this way” is a fallacious argument.

Then I must ask the question…why are you here on a Christian forum? For the life of me, i don’t see the logic.

To use language you may be familiar with: I am here to “give sight to the blind.” Or, if you want the politically correct version: I am here to broaden the perspectives of others.

I don’t think I’ve said anything contrary to my original post. We do not know God’s mind. I don’t think I’ve said I have proof that He exists…But if you are asking me if I personally believe if He exists for me…I would state He does. Because I don’t need to personally put my hands in his wounds…doesn’t make me any less logical then you - in denying Him.

But you’re taking it a few steps further than mere belief; you’re jumping all the way to worshipping the guy! If a man were running for President, would you vote for him if you didn’t know his position on social matters, didn’t understand why he acted as he did in the past, and you had to refer to him using some vain epithet, like “Master?” The man’s past actions were suspicious, and his identity is unknown, so if his party said, “Just have faith in him,” would you buy it? Furthermore, would you be able to muster up any respect for his supporters, who know next to nothing about the candidate they are backing so enthusiastically–the same person who will have an entire country at his disposal? Answer honestly.

IMHO the superstition argument used by atheists can work both ways…I maybe called superstitious because I believe…I see atheists as superstitious people - afraid to believe.

This makes no sense. How could I fear God without also believing he exists? If dragons existed in my neighborhood, I would be afraid of them. But since it’s infinitely unlikely that they exist, I don’t fear them even though they are defined as powerful beings. I guess you could say that I fear the small possibility of their existence, but that’s not the same thing, is it? Would you say that fearing the possibility of dragons existing makes me superstitious? If so, I guess we’re all superstitious.

 

[miguel]

This is a story which has always concerned and horrified me - the 1950’s movie “The Ten Commendments” with Pharaoh mourning his son’s death made a great impact on me and I could never understand why people thought it showed God in a good light and was something to celebrate. To me it showed God as a tyrant.

I took part in a previous thread on this topic and look forward to reading this one in depth (I have just skimmed through it) and seeing what light is thrown on this topic. For even if the story is taken as myth it portrays a very, very chilling God.

Poor Pharaoh. Of course if God let the tyrant, Pharaoh, win this battle of wills, he’d be accused of indifference to human suffering.

 

[Oreoracle]

Poor Pharaoh. Of course if God let the tyrant, Pharaoh, win this battle of wills, he’d be accused of indifference.

Err…why didn’t God just prevent Pharaoh from being born, or at least from coming to power??? Is your god that helpless?

Poor God, always having to use force in order to protect our free will, which is apparently more valuable than our lives.

 

[Cristian_B]

Err…why didn’t God just prevent Pharaoh from being born, or at least from coming to power??? Is your god that helpless?

Poor God, always having to use force in order to protect our free will, which is apparently more valuable than our lives.

But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. -Exodus 9:16

Free will isn’t more valuable than your life, it is your life. Without it, you’d be an animal. Now God released them from physical slavery; the “mental” one is something that not even Pharaoh can take.

 

[miguel]

Err…why didn’t God just prevent Pharaoh from being born, or at least from coming to power???

You’ll have to ask him.

Is your god that helpless?

I think the 10 plagues demonstrate his power. They also show his reluctance to use the big guns right off the bat. Pharaoh had no idea who he was dealing with initially. God no doubt understood that and was willing to step things up bit by bit until he got it. Another might have clued in sooner than this particular dude.

Poor God, always having to use force in order to protect our free will, which is apparently more valuable than our lives.

Force is one of the tools at his disposal. He is God afterall. But how does protecting our free will have anything to do with the cost of tea in China?

 

[Oreoracle]

Free will isn’t more valuable than your life, it is your life. Without it, you’d be an animal. Now God released them from physical slavery; the “mental” one is something that not even Pharaoh can take.

Could you define “free will?”

 

[kimmielittle]

To use language you may be familiar with: I am here to “give sight to the blind.” Or, if you want the politically correct version: I am here to broaden the perspectives of others.

So…you are a troll?? You state you don’t believe in God, which I guess would leave off religion. So what’s your agenda …at trying to get anyone to believe in your words? Does it feed your ego? Your hatred - anger? I’m simply trying to see your motive.
I would think, if I didn’t believe in God…I wouldn’t care, unless it’s one of the above reasons.

But you’re taking it a few steps further than mere belief; you’re jumping all the way to worshipping the guy!

** ABSOLUTELY**

If a man were running for President, would you vote for him if you didn’t know his position on social matters, didn’t understand why he acted as he did in the past, and you had to refer to him using some vain epithet, like “Master?” The man’s past actions were suspicious, and his identity is unknown, so if his party said, “Just have faith in him,” would you buy it? Furthermore, would you be able to muster up any respect for his supporters, who know next to nothing about the candidate they are backing so enthusiastically–the same person who will have an entire country at his disposal? Answer honestly.

Honestly, ** only if He was God**

As always, just my thoughts

 

[miguel]

Honestly, only if He was God

:egyptian:

 

[Oreoracle]

So…you are a troll?? You state you don’t believe in God, which I guess would leave off religion. So what’s your agenda …at trying to get anyone to believe in your words? Does it feed your ego? Your hatred - anger? I’m simply trying to see your motive.
I would think, if I didn’t believe in God…I wouldn’t care, unless it’s one of the above reasons.

The fact that you can’t possibly imagine that I’m honest when I say I’m here to broaden perspectives says a lot about your character. Though I guess the religious do tend to believe that making people think counts as bullying or trolling.

Honestly, ** only if He was God**

You mean only if he was Master, whom we cannot question.

If you are truly happy as a sheep, we’ll just leave the discussion at that. You can be a sheep and follow someone you don’t understand (whose words are interpreted by an organization with an agenda) and call yourself “logical” for doing so all you want.

 

[Oreoracle]

You’ll have to ask him.

I called him, but the recorded message on his answering machine said, “Why does everyone keep calling this number?! There’s no one here!” Do you think I should take that message at face value? gasp Maybe I need some officials to interpret it for my mere mortal mind!

I think the 10 plagues demonstrate his power.

…and his foolishness. Why not use the simple solution I offered instead of killing innocents? If God exists, and he truly did kill people as warnings, then he was severely over-reacting. It would be like a parent disciplining their child by raping them instead of just grounding them and then claiming that you just don’t see things from their perspective, so you can’t judge. The punishments are obviously gratuitous, so why defend them?

Force is one of the tools at his disposal. He is God afterall. But how does protecting our free will have anything to do with the cost of tea in China?

If I would have said, “Just make them obedient instead of killing them,” you would have shouted, “FREE WILL!”

 

[miguel]

…and his foolishness. Why not use the simple solution I offered instead of killing innocents?

Pharaoh thought he was smarter than God too. Where did it get him? The bottom of the Red Sea.

If I would have said, “Just make them obedient instead of killing them,” you would have shouted, “FREE WILL!”

I would have said “love and free will”. And I hope I wouldn’t have shouted.

 

[Oreoracle]

Pharaoh thought he was smarter than God too. Where did it get him? The bottom of the Red Sea.

Use of force does not determine who is smarter than others. As Bertrand Russell said, “War does not determine who is right, only who is left.” Those are TRUE words of wisdom, not like the junk you find in a holy book.

 

[Spirithound]

Why not just admit that ordering the mass murder of innocent new born infants is grossly inconsistant with love? Sorry, I just don’t get it

God has killed billions of people over the millennia. You must be working with an inaccurate definition of love.

 

[Oreoracle]

God has killed billions of people over the millennia. You must be working with an inaccurate definition of love.

And I could say the same of Christians! Oh man, you gotta love the irony.

 

[tonyrey]

…and his foolishness. Why not use the simple solution I offered instead of killing innocents? If God exists, and he truly did kill people as warnings, then he was severely over-reacting. It would be like a parent disciplining their child by raping them instead of just grounding them and then claiming that you just don’t see things from their perspective, so you can’t judge. The punishments are obviously gratuitous, so why defend them?

To put the record straight: not all Christians believe God deliberately willed the plagues as punishments for sin! They were permitted, like all other natural evils, because that there has to be a limit to divine intervention. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly world in which we are able to predict and control (within limits) what is going to happen. We would never know what to expect next if every natural disaster were prevented!

Having said that, the occurrence of both disasters and miracles were used to remind people of the immense power and wisdom required to create the universe and its wonders. It is impossible for us to know when catastrophes have been averted by divine intervention and it could happen far more often than we realise - given the violent nature of this planet. It is a miracle that life on earth has survived so long…

 

[Cristian_B]

Could you define “free will?”

I believe it is the ability with which you decide how to live, or at least try to live your life; the ability to freely make decisions.