The deaths of the Egyptian fristborns

[alongexpected]

Indeed. Moreover, the more we do discover, the more questions we generate; but also the more unlikely this classical idea of a god is. I’m not necessarily saying the broader concept of a god or a creator, or even a soul of some sort, is an unreasonable idea or even for that matter unlikely. But can we really imagine a god who can create things perfectly and ex nihilo (from nothing) but instead chose a drawn out, inefficient process like evolution or the big bang?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m past arguing over this issue, because there’s not much of a point really. I certainly don’t view western Christianity as threatening (most of my family at least nominally identifies as Christian). But, when I hear stories of miracle cures, isn’t it proper to wonder why god never seems to cure amputees, and only seems to cure illnesses that could have gotten better on their own (even if the chances were small)? Does god hate amputees?

Isn’t it proper to wonder how we could call a god “all loving” who allegedly murdered all the male infants in ancient Egypt? When mainstream archeology says the Exodus narrative is outside the range of reasonable historical possibility, should I ignore it? Or should I assume all the worlds scientists are colluding in a mass anti-god conspiracy?

Sure I could say there’s no god, but I think there’s some very interesting phenomena out there that science cannot explain, which does leave the door open to that sort of thing. So I say if there is a god, then it seems virtually impossible to think he’s omnipotent. It’s much more logical to think he doesn’t cure amputees because he can’t cure amputees. If there is anything to these stories of miracles and prayer then maybe god is able to bolster our spiritual energy, or whatever, and somehow enhance our ability to recover from illness, but within the parameters of nature. In other words there’s no evidence god can cure what cannot be cured, like for instance spontaneously regrowing a limb, or create using a process other than what we see in nature. I think, therefore, if there’s a god these facts imply limits on how the spiritual realm (or whatever you want to call it, if it exists) can interact with the physical world.

Anyway, I blabbering! In other words, I have no clue what might exist. I can only take what science knows through observation and match it up the best I can against the human idea of a god, what we see in medical science and the world more generally; and try to come up with something that might make a little bit of sense (or at least has scent of logical constistency)

Wow. Insightful. No offense to everyone on this site, but there’s now exactly two other people I’ve read that are using their own rational thought process and common sense to think about things instead "man shall not lie with a man as with a woman so-I-must-condemn-gays line of thinking.

Good for you.

 

[kimmielittle]

Wow. Insightful. No offense to everyone on this site, but there’s now exactly two other people I’ve read that are using their own rational thought process and common sense to think about things instead "man shall not lie with a man as with a woman so-I-must-condemn-gays line of thinking.

Good for you.

Hiyas

IMHO, that is a pretty broad brush you paint with.

As always, just my thoughts

 

[Spirithound]

Ron Wyatt’s claims are universally dismissed by biblical scholars, historians, archeologists, and even leaders of his own church (Seventh Day Adventist). This guy has claimed to discover everything from the site of Noah’s Ark, a sample of Christ’s blood, the Tower of Babel, the Ark of the Covenant, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the “second set” of the original ten commandments.

If you believe Ron Wyatt you might also be interested in placing a bid for a bridge I have for sale?

I was wondering when you’d offer! Do you have a Nigerian bank account I can wire the money to?

 

[JDaniel]

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

What should I tell him?

Cristian B: tell him that God created them. They are here at His pleasure (as crude as that sounds) NOT any human being’s. They are not here antecedent to God’s will, but precedent to it. They are His souls. Their deaths, at worst, land the unborn into His lap. They are children without the stain of sin . . . which they will have at their births, and may well never rid themselves of. The children would be stained. So, no “evil” has been visited upon the “innocent” firstborn. Furthermore, the proof for the idolatry of the gods of the Egyptians, it seems, was beyond the wills of of the Egyptians to accept and disown. Now, there could be no vagueness, no excuse.

jd

 

[bridgeforsale]

Cristian B: tell him that God created them. They are here at His pleasure (as crude as that sounds) NOT any human being’s. They are not here antecedent to God’s will, but precedent to it. They are His souls. Their deaths, at worst, land the unborn into His lap. They are children without the stain of sin . . . which they will have at their births, and may well never rid themselves of. The children would be stained. So, no “evil” has been visited upon the “innocent” firstborn. Furthermore, the proof for the idolatry of the gods of the Egyptians, it seems, was beyond the wills of of the Egyptians to accept and disown. Now, there could be no vagueness, no excuse.

jd

Yes, and this very “Calvinistic” approach, which imagines a god who treats his creation as chattel (to be slaughtered at will) is logically necessary to uphold the orthodox view of god. There is no other logically consistent way to view god if you assume most of the bible represents revealed truth, and you assume god is completely omnipotent (in the classical sense). It is indeed a god who should be feared more than loved. It makes god out to be an unstable tyrant with absolute power. To add to the horror the ancient mind (who believed literally in these things) must have felt, this unpredictable tyrant who slaughters at will, could read their every thought.

For me god is not a slave owner who is reading my mind every moment of every day.

 

[Spirithound]

Yes, and this very “Calvinistic” approach, which imagines a god who treats his creation as chattel (to be slaughtered at will) is logically necessary to uphold the orthodox view of god. There is no other logically consistent way to view god if you assume most of the bible represents revealed truth, and you assume god is completely omnipotent (in the classical sense). It is indeed a god who should be feared more than loved. It makes god out to be an unstable tyrant with absolute power. To add to the horror the ancient mind (who believed literally in these things) must have felt, this unpredictable tyrant who slaughters at will, could read their every thought.

For me god is not a slave owner who is reading my mind every moment of every day.

There is a major difference. When a farmer slaughters cattle, he sells it or eats it. When we die, we meet God. This life is temporary, and there is an eternal one waiting for us.

 

[bridgeforsale]

There is a major difference. When a farmer slaughters cattle, he sells it or eats it. When we die, we meet God. This life is temporary, and there is an eternal one waiting for us.

I have to respectfully disagree with this analysis. God ordered the murder of Egyptian infants to horrify the Egyptian political leadership (and the bible infers he was justified because at the outset of the Exodus story the Pharoah ordered the murder of Jewish infants). Therefore, the story makes our god, the infinite god of the universe who is depicted as perfect and good, out to be a god who uses fear and horror, including the psychological torture of parents by slaughtering their newborns, and furthermore justifies his actions by appealing to the principal of retribution.

If you ask me, I think this story is a defamation of god’s character.

 

[SunnaB16]

bridgeforsale:
Re: your Post #110
What was the point of your statement about God and the Big Bang?
Could you please explain why God would not initiate the Big Bang? “But can we really imagine a god who can create things perfectly and ex nihilo (from nothing), but instead chose a drawn out, inefficient process like evolution or the Big Bang?” There are only two explanations I can think of for that statement. The first is to brand us all Fundamentalists (thats their business!) and dopes. The second explanation is that you dont have the faintest idea of Who or What God is. God is Perfect, Infinite, Eternal. Eternal means that He exists outside of time; He encompasses it (Hes the Creator of spacetime). Theres no before and after in Eternity. He exists in the Eternal NOW. He IS in one Eternal act of ISSING. He EVERYTHINGS in one Eternal act of EVERYTHINGING. No past or future; its all the same to Him, whether its 14 billion years or 10,000 years or the life of a proton. Are you suggesting that the Big Bang rules out the existence of God because He would be driven up the wall by the long time span? The difference between God and ourselves is infinitely greater than the difference between ourselves and a gold fish in a fishbowl. Our intellects can go only so far, and we shouldnt allow ourselves to resent it. As time has gone on, theologians have dug deeper and deeper into the "Mystery" of The Blessed Trinity, the Inner Life of God. It takes a powerful intellect to do that. Its exciting! A Tinitarian Christian has to have a much broader perspective than any atheist needs.

For those who make it to Heaven, there`s the awesome Reality of the Beatific Vision; raw Spirit to spirit contact with God, and spirit to spirit contact with all of the other blesseds, and the angels (pure spirits), in one Infinite Ocean of Knowledge and Love, never knowwing Him fully, because only God can know Himself fully, but knowing more and more and more…forever. The only Being Who can give us total fulfillment

Mentioned a book titled “Theology and Sanity” on Post #103. It devotes more than 30 pages just to the Blessed Trinity, and theres a lot that it leaves out. Do yourself, and us, a favour by reading it. We Christians are fed up with people who have the nerve to attack our beliefs when you dont even know what our beliefs are.

Something which has already been stated, but totally ignored by you: WOULD YOU PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS NOT ALL MALE INFANTS WHO WERE “MURDERED”, BUT ALL FIRSTBORNS, REGARDLESS OF AGE. This also included all firstborn animals. It was mentioned on Post #76, that those who died would not have suffered. The ones who suffered were the survivors.

Is it any wonder we Christians feel strongly that some of you “Nonbelievers” are not genuine? No matter how often we try to explain something, next time you get involved in an argument, you hurl the same old slanderous tripe in our faces. If you really are sincere about seeking the truth, and if you want us to respect you, you should stop treating us with contempt.

Someone was good enough to point out to me that oreoracle claims hes 16yo. That explains his antics, because hes going through a phase. I was just as arrogant at his age, so I have to take back most of what I said to him. Children at that age think they know everything. But for an adult to insist on treating us with contempt is inexcusable. (Apologies if youre not one; you dont give much away, do you!). Please toss out the idea that all Christians fear and hate science. (Hello, Albert)

If you want to find out what the Church really teaches, find a source which is more reliable than R Dawkins and Co. Just in this instance, it`d be better if you reject Dawkins and all his empty promises, and get material authored by orthodox Catholics. These folks are a lot brighter than you think they are.

Some Catholic Scientists:
Niclaus Copernicus: a priest, buried in Frombork Cathedral
Lacaille: a deacon
Gregor Mendel: a monk, father of Genetics
Louis Pasteur
Georges Lemaitre: a priest, father of the Big Bang theory

Sure, Galileo was persecuted, but, apart from house arrest, he didnt suffer physically. If Luthers or Calvin`s spiritual descendents had got hold of him, his end might have been a lot hotter.

Hope there aren`t too many typos…

 

[Oreoracle]

Someone was good enough to point out to me that oreoracle claims hes 16yo. That explains his antics, because hes going through a phase.

Sure, considering a Christian who defends slaughtering infants a brainwashed fundamentalist is wrong, but chalking up a 16-year old’s thoughts as “adolescent antics” or the products of a “phase” is perfectly fine. Good judgment there, Chief.

Agism isn’t a defense, dude. It’s a cop out.

If you want to find out what the Church really teaches…

And here we go again. Why is it that each time I hear someone say that, the following explanation is always different than the others? Could it be that people make stuff up when it comes to religion? Could it be that people intepret vague passages as they want to? Could it be that (gasp) different Catholic churches teach different things and that they don’t have a consistent central doctrine?

 

[SunnaB16]

oreoracle:
As I said, youre going through a phase. I used to bait people at your age. Children have so much to learn. Apparently, our minds arent fully developed until about the age of 25, so you have a bit to go yet. But stick with it.

There are so many hormones released at puberty, and after, that it can be a very difficult time. If you feel that you can`t cope, you might consider a teen counsellor.

Regarding the “murder” of the innocents, did you notice the bit in uppercase?
You may have been too angry to notice it.

Anyway, best of luck on your continuing journey towards adulthood.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Something which has already been stated, but totally ignored by you: WOULD YOU PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS NOT ALL MALE INFANTS WHO WERE “MURDERED”, BUT ALL FIRSTBORNS, REGARDLESS OF AGE. This also included all firstborn animals. It was mentioned on Post #76, that those who died would not have suffered. The ones who suffered were the survivors.

OK, that makes it much better then

Is it any wonder we Christians feel strongly that some of you “Nonbelievers” are not genuine? No matter how often we try to explain something, next time you get involved in an argument, you hurl the same old slanderous tripe in our faces. If you really are sincere about seeking the truth, and if you want us to respect you, you should stop treating us with contempt.

Wow … I have no idea where the heck that came from?

Some Catholic Scientists:
Niclaus Copernicus: a priest, buried in Frombork Cathedral
Lacaille: a deacon
Gregor Mendel: a monk, father of Genetics
Louis Pasteur
Georges Lemaitre: a priest, father of the Big Bang theory

What have you done for us lately?

 

[Oreoracle]

oreoracle:
As I said, youre going through a phase. I used to bait people at your age. Children have so much to learn. Apparently, our minds arent fully developed until about the age of 25, so you have a bit to go yet. But stick with it.

Another dismissal. It would be fantastic if you would address arguments instead of the ages of people who use them. Agism is just a variation of ad hominem.

Anyway, don’t you realize that most people are know-it-alls throughout their whole lives? On one hand, you have teenagers and children, who, through a combination of incomplete development and hormones are sometimes too emotional to reason and thus act like know-it-alls. On the other hand, you have adults who unsuspectedly make errors because they believe themselves to be exempt from the weaknesses of adolescence. We’re left with one group that is unable to reason and another that is too confident to use their abilities properly. To be honest, I don’t know which group you belong to.

But your “hush little baby, you’ll understand when you’re older” tactic won’t work on me. If you believe my reasoning is inadequate then that’s fine, you can point out the flaws in my arguments. Claiming that your opponent is incompetent but not substantiating that claim is ad hominem.

There are so many hormones released at puberty, and after, that it can be a very difficult time. If you feel that you can`t cope, you might consider a teen counsellor.

Hehe. That’s just what I need: another adult who is too proud to realize he is wrong. If I had to talk with a counselor, he would need counseling after the session was over.

Regarding the “murder” of the innocents, did you notice the bit in uppercase?
You may have been too angry to notice it.

I didn’t say that only male infants were murdered, I just said that they were murdered. Either way, I don’t see how this makes God look better. If people need to be killed, I would rather they be infants who are relatively unaware of their situation than young men who would fear death and have identities in society.

Anyway, best of luck on your continuing journey towards adulthood.

You too. LOL

 

[SunnaB16]

Defending the Truth against folks who have grabbed the bull by the tail is one thing. Mother Teresa said: “Not everyone can do big things, but they can do lots of little things.”. Not the exact words, but something like that.
Taking the time to try to learn more about the Faith is another one.

Re the bit about God and the Big Bang: any comments, or are you at least happy enough with the reasonableness (is there such a word?) of it?

I wasnt joking about the Catholic literature bit: if each side understood where the other side is coming from, at least all of the arguing would be a bit more civilised. Wed even be able to respect you a bit more. I`m the first to admit that a short fuse is deadly.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Defending the Truth against folks who have grabbed the bull by the tail is one thing. Mother Teresa said: “Not everyone can do big things, but they can do lots of little things.”. Not the exact words, but something like that.
Taking the time to try to learn more about the Faith is another one.

Re the bit about God and the Big Bang: any comments, or are you at least happy enough with the reasonableness (is there such a word?) of it?

I wasnt joking about the Catholic literature bit: if each side understood where the other side is coming from, at least all of the arguing would be a bit more civilised. Wed even be able to respect you a bit more. I`m the first to admit that a short fuse is deadly.

My response to your big bang comment is … I don’t think you’ve been reading my posts very carefully (I haven’t assumed that the “big bang” can rule out the existence of god). As far as all the theological claims you’ve made, I think they’re all bare assertions with absolutely no evidentiary foundation. Nonetheless, I don’t want to derail us from the topic at hand, the deaths of the Egyptian firstborns, so end of comment!

 

[SunnaB16]

Hello, oreoracle youre back! Shite and Briny, I hope! Full of beans? (Have to admit: I miss the vigour of youth.) Glad youre back though, because a few more ideas came to mind.

Just like you, I used to think I was the centre of the Universe. Speaking of which, Zaphod Beeblebrox thought he was, too. He got away with it, but that was only fiction. Dont you think he mustve been pretty desperate to eat that piece of fairy cake?

A couple of ideas about therapy:
Ever considered going back into your sand box and playing around in it for a while? Just make sure there are no cats around, though. Nigh on 50 years ago, I used to play in a sand pit and build roads and mountains and stuff. Only problem was, I ended up copping ring worm! Back in those days, you had to put some gel stuff over it. With technology the way it is, theres probably something better, now. While the sand pit playing lasted, though, the activity was very soothing (I suffer from anxiety). Another thing about ring worm: you dont want the other children to laugh at you, do you?

In an extreme situation, if the pain persists, epsom salts might be the go.

There was something else, but I can`t think of it.
Might have to wait til next time.

Anyway: bye for now. Just keep your chin up, and you`ll make it.

PS How do you pronounce your name? It would be interesting to know how you came by it.

 

[SunnaB16]

That quote that I took from your Post #110 seemed to be a problem. Sorry, I don`t know how to use the quote facility.

 

[Oreoracle]

Just like you, I used to think I was the centre of the Universe.

Well we’re each the center of our own universes. If it were possible for us to jump outside our own consciousnesses and peer through someone else’s for a while, only to step back into our own while retaining the memories of our experience, that wouldn’t be so. However, the only mind I will ever inhabit is my own, and you yours.

Speaking of which, Zaphod Beeblebrox thought he was, too. He got away with it, but that was only fiction. Dont you think he mustve been pretty desperate to eat that piece of fairy cake?

A couple of ideas about therapy:
Ever considered going back into your sand box and playing around in it for a while? Just make sure there are no cats around, though. Nigh on 50 years ago, I used to play in a sand pit and build roads and mountains and stuff. Only problem was, I ended up copping ring worm! Back in those days, you had to put some gel stuff over it. With technology the way it is, theres probably something better, now. While the sand pit playing lasted, though, the activity was very soothing (I suffer from anxiety). Another thing about ring worm: you dont want the other children to laugh at you, do you?

In an extreme situation, if the pain persists, epsom salts might be the go.

Please don’t take offense when I ask this, but are you high? If not, you should think about reading Poe’s Law. It’s hard to tell whether someone’s being serious over the internet.

Just keep your chin up, and you`ll make it.

Err…I wasn’t under the impression that I wouldn’t “make it.”

PS How do you pronounce your name? It would be interesting to know how you came by it.

Sure. The name is a joke in the form of a portmanteau. It is a combination of “Oreo” (the cookie) and “oracle.” To pronounce it you simply pronounce those two words consecutively. This tends to trip people up because relatively few words in the English language use the same letter twice during pronunciation (the letter being used twice is the second “o”).

I figured that the name would portray me as a smart aleck who has a sense of humor.

 

[SunnaB16]

oreoracle: back withus!

The bit about your inhabiting only your own mind would be a relief to a lot of people. Did you read “Dune”, where Alia gatecrashed the old Reverened Mother`s mind?

Re the being high question:
Youre dead right. Its the anti-depressants that do that. The alternative is hell on earth, and Ive been there. Months of it, complete with death wish. Its a matter of just having to put up with the mood swings. Theres nothing I can do about it. Its potluck that you caughtus on a high. Tomorrow, it could be the other way…

Thanks for explaining it.

 

[SunnaB16]

oreoracle
PS
The only thing that prevented my contemplating, and probably committing, suicide was the Faith. There sure as hell was no other source of hope. The absolute pits! “Let the reader take note.” (Is that the way it goes? No good with Scripture quotes.)

We`ll both end up being kicked off this thread…

 

[Oreoracle]

Did you read “Dune”, where Alia gatecrashed the old Reverened Mother`s mind?

No, I haven’t.

Youre dead right. Its the anti-depressants that do that. The alternative is hell on earth, and I`ve been there.

I’m sorry to hear about that. If I would have guessed I’d be right with my prediction, I might not have said anything.

Anyway, do you mind if I ask you a quick question? You see, I want to be a social worker when I get through college, so psychology is interesting and useful to me. So if I may ask: When you are depressed, are you aware of the cause of the depression? I mean, is there any recurring thought that upsets you or incites some sort of unfavorable emotional atmosphere? Or is the cause unknown to you? I’m curious about depression, so any answer is appreciated.