The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[RyanBlack]

Huh! When Jesus said that he will draw all Men to himself was him dying on the Cross to save us from our sins.

Of course Our Lord was referring to his death on the Cross. The “lifted up” part ought to make that obvious. But what does the “draw all men to myself” part mean? To me and those who think as I do, we believe that ultimately, in ways that we do no fully understand, the love of Christ made perfectly manifest on the Cross will persuade all to turn to God.

 

[Nicea325]

Couldn’t have said it better myself:thumbsup:

Amen!

 

[Nicea325]

Of course Our Lord was referring to his death on the Cross. The “lifted up” part ought to make that obvious. But what does the “draw all men to myself” part mean? To me and those who think as I do, we believe that ultimately, in ways that we do no fully understand, the love of Christ made perfectly manifest on the Cross will persuade all to turn to God.

Meaning what? No one will ever go to Hell?

 

[Esdra]

This makes no sense. If a person goes to purgatory that means they are saved but have some, lets say issues to resolve. The main issue is that the person has not quite gotten rid of some of the mental issues of sin. Its kind of like the urge to sin is gone, but you can still see the fun you had in the sin itself. In purgatory all must be gone. Your mind must be completely Christ like.

Now back to your question, when we pray for our loved ones we can make their path to complete eternal life in Christ easier is all. Just like we can in this world.

To make it even simplier, do you see what prayer in this world can do for a loved one here with us? Then my next question, do you not feel our prayers can be heard for them in the next world also?

Bottom line Prayer works, rather the person is in purgatory, or here on earth. If you pray for a loved one God listens!!

So do you see why I cannot see the reasoning in your question. To me its like why pray for anyone at all? Or to put it another way, if we do not pray for our brothers and sisters in this world are they going to hell! Thats what I got out of your question.

Well, in the other post the poster stated that those dead for whom noone is praying, won’t make it from purgatory to heaven, but from there to hell (or they even go directly to hell after dying!)

So my question was: Do then ALL Protestants, in your opinion, go to hell? Because Protestants don’t belive in Purgatory! - Thus noone is prying for them when they are dead!°

Praying for the Living is something different (also in Light of Mt 22,32; Mk 12,27; Lk 20,38 or Mt 8,22; Lk 9,60). Protestants do that very often - with the firm believe that God will hear them!
But you’ll never ever see a Protestant* ('Though I am not sure about the so called “High Protestants” here! Please tell me if I thus generalize!)* praying for their dead.
Either, in their believe (and mine), you make it to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour and are baptised in His (Trinitarian) name, or you don’t when you reject Him purposfully. There is no middle-way.

 

[rinnie]

He also told us that he would draw ALL people to himself (John 12:32). And as I said before, Holy Scripture tells us that it is not God’s will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). As I asked before, shall God’s will, into all eternity, be thwarted? Look, I don’t expect to change your mind. Your position is based in a certain strand within the Scriptures, and I certainly agree that the possibility of eternal damnation should be taken seriously. On the other hand, you shouldn’t expect that I’m going to change my mind, because I also see a strand within the Scriptures that supports my position.

But see you are fogetting the most important part. God gave us FREE WILL. While our WILL should be HIS will, it is still our choice to make. Yes God wants us all to want him and Love him.

But he gave us the right to choose for ourself. But let me ask you this, what makes you think that your position has any support if it goes against the word of God. Please I mean not insult.

But the word of God tells us that we do not have the mind of God, we think like this world, and if we think like this world, this is not the world of God. Gods world is the next world.

We are told to obey the Church for the Church is led by the Holy Spirit. The Pope and the Bishops teach with the VOICE of God.

Now could you show me the strand of scripture that does indeed support you position. Thanks

 

[rinnie]

Well, in the other post the poster stated that those dead for whom noone is praying, won’t make it from purgatory to heaven, but from there to hell (or they even go directly to hell after dying!)

So my question was: Do then ALL Protestants, in your opinion, go to hell? Because Protestants don’t belive in Purgatory! - Thus noone is prying for them when they are dead!°

Praying for the Living is something different (also in Light of Mt 22,32; Mk 12,27; Lk 20,38 or Mt 8,22; Lk 9,60). Protestants do that very often - with the firm believe that God will hear them!
But you’ll never ever see a Protestant* ('Though I am not sure about the so called “High Protestants” here! Please tell me if I thus generalize!)* praying for their dead.
Either, in their believe (and mine), you make it to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour and are baptised in His (Trinitarian) name, or you don’t when you reject Him purposfully. There is no middle-way.

Let me make this simple for you. If you PRAY for the souls in purgatory one prayer could be a thousand years in purgatory. Now you will just reduce their time, but they will still get out!

 

[Esdra]

Sorry but that the word of God. If one chooses to live his life by rejecting God and doing the devils works is not getting in. Thats what the word of the Lord teaches.

By the way the Prodigal Son did not deny God, he just turned away from God, Came back, repented, and turned back to God before it was too late. I do not see the connection from choosing to live your life rejecting God and the story of the Pro. Son:shrug:

How do you know that the Prodigal Son didn’t reject God (his father)?
He did sin a lot! Isn’t that rejecting God? Because when you don’t reject God, don’t you then try your best NOT to sin and do your best to do ALL our Heavenly Father has commanded us to do? - To sum up to lead a Christian life?

Here the Story from the KJV:

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

© Copyright by International Bible Society

 

[RyanBlack]

But see you are fogetting the most important part. God gave us FREE WILL. While our WILL should be HIS will, it is still our choice to make. Yes God wants us all to want him and Love him.

But he gave us the right to choose for ourself. But let me ask you this, what makes you think that your position has any support if it goes against the word of God. Please I mean not insult.

But the word of God tells us that we do not have the mind of God, we think like this world, and if we think like this world, this is not the world of God. Gods world is the next world.

We are told to obey the Church for the Church is led by the Holy Spirit. The Pope and the Bishops teach with the VOICE of God.

Now could you show me the strand of scripture that does indeed support you position. Thanks

I’m forgetting nothing. I’m very familiar with and have heard articulated numerous times every point you’ve made. I simply don’t see things in the same way, and I don’t believe my position goes against the Word of God. I’ve already pointed out the Scriptural bases for my position.

 

[Esdra]

I disagree the word of God tells us that not everyone is going to go to heaven. Jesus tells us himself he will be back and separate the sheep from the wolves. ANd cast the evil into hell. This I do know.

While I agree I cannot Judge, there will be Judgement day. Christ told us that. And while I cannot say WHO will be called to go to heaven and who will not. Its a fact. Jesus will come and get his People. He told us that.

No, according to His Word, he won’t seperate the sheep from the wolves, but the sheep from the goats!

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[rinnie]

Of course Our Lord was referring to his death on the Cross. The “lifted up” part ought to make that obvious. But what does the “draw all men to myself” part mean? To me and those who think as I do, we believe that ultimately, in ways that we do no fully understand, the love of Christ made perfectly manifest on the Cross will persuade all to turn to God.

He was talking to us all. He was showing us that he will prove to us he is God when he dies on the Cross and is Risen. He drove out the devil. He took away death by Sin. Sin was what the devil had over us. We could not quit sin. So he paid for our sin, original sin is forever paid for in our Baptism. Not we can have eternal LIFE in Christ for our sins.

Then after Baptism if we sin again, which we do unfortunately, there is confession (the gift given to the Apostles to forgive sin in his name). We can gain a clean slate again. There was no such thing before his death on the Cross. Now we have the Sacraments in the Church that is Christ saving us by leaving us himself in the Church. When the Priest says you are forgiven it is the Power of Christ talking through him. We did not have that before.

 

[Nicea325]

Well, in the other post the poster stated that those dead for whom noone is praying, won’t make it from purgatory to heaven, but from there to hell (or they even go directly to hell after dying!)

So my question was: Do then ALL Protestants, in your opinion, go to hell? Because Protestants don’t belive in Purgatory! - Thus noone is prying for them when they are dead!°

Praying for the Living is something different (also in Light of Mt 22,32; Mk 12,27; Lk 20,38 or Mt 8,22; Lk 9,60). Protestants do that very often - with the firm believe that God will hear them!
But you’ll never ever see a Protestant* ('Though I am not sure about the so called “High Protestants” here! Please tell me if I thus generalize!)* praying for their dead.
Either, in their believe (and mine), you make it to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour and are baptised in His (Trinitarian) name, or you don’t when you reject Him purposfully. There is no middle-way.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can one show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Most Protestants reject purgatory for big reason,their tradition rejected the deuter-canon books. Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that “true believers” in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

 

[rinnie]

No, according to His Word, he won’t seperate the sheep from the wolves, but the sheep from the goats!

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Goats!!! How could I forget the Goats. My Bad!!

 

[rinnie]

I’m forgetting nothing. I’m very familiar with and have heard articulated numerous times every point you’ve made. I simply don’t see things in the same way, and I don’t believe my position goes against the Word of God. I’ve already pointed out the Scriptural bases for my position.

I missed it, could you point it out one more time, the scripture that says we all get in! Thanks.

 

[Nicea325]

But see you are fogetting the most important part. God gave us FREE WILL. While our WILL should be HIS will, it is still our choice to make. Yes God wants us all to want him and Love him.

But he gave us the right to choose for ourself. But let me ask you this, what makes you think that your position has any support if it goes against the word of God. Please I mean not insult.

But the word of God tells us that we do not have the mind of God, we think like this world, and if we think like this world, this is not the world of God. Gods world is the next world.

We are told to obey the Church for the Church is led by the Holy Spirit. The Pope and the Bishops teach with the VOICE of God.

Now could you show me the strand of scripture that does indeed support you position. Thanks

Exactly! Angels also were given the gift of free-will and yet some CHOSE to rebel against God. God did not produce robots,but free-willing creatures.

 

[RyanBlack]

I missed it, could you point it out one more time, the scripture that says we all get in! Thanks.

Would you, in Christian charity, please drop the sarcastic, insulting tone? I have already t noted the passages from the Gospel of John and and 2 Peter I believe support my position. No, they don’t explicitly state, “we all get in.” Then again, I rather strongly suspect there are no verses that specifically state some of the things you believe are upheld by Holy Scripture and are taught by the Church. Something need not be stated specifically in order for it to be upheld by Holy Scripture.

 

[Nicea325]

d

Would you, in Christian charity, please drop the sarcastic, insulting tone? I have already t noted the passages from the Gospel of John and and 2 Peter I believe support my position. No, they don’t explicitly state, “we all get in.” Then again, I rather strongly suspect there are no verses that specifically state some of the things you believe are upheld by Holy Scripture and are taught by the Church. Just because the Holy Scriptures don’t specifically state it, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.

No offense,but is your position taught by the Catholic Church? If so,care to provide sources confirming it?

 

[RyanBlack]

No offense,but is your position taught by the Catholic Church? If so,care to provide sources confirming it?

I never said it was.

 

[Nicea325]

I never said it was.

So in other words,that is your own opinion-correct?

 

[rinnie]

How do you know that the Prodigal Son didn’t reject God (his father)?
He did sin a lot! Isn’t that rejecting God? Because when you don’t reject God, don’t you then try your best NOT to sin and do your best to do ALL our Heavenly Father has commanded us to do? - To sum up to lead a Christian life?

Here the Story from the KJV:

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

© Copyright by International Bible Society

Well it was pretty simple when HIS Father rejoiced and said My Son was lost but now he is found, He REPENTED, remember? He said he was sorry and would be happy to live as a hired hand the rest of his life. He as my Aunt used to say, was willing to sit on his blister.

He turned back to God when he confessed his sin, and expected nothing! Is that not what repenting is, admitting you were wrong, and being prepared to pay for the sin.

 

[Esdra]

Let me make this simple for you. If you PRAY for the souls in purgatory one prayer could be a thousand years in purgatory. Now you will just reduce their time, but they will still get out!

You seem to avoid my question!

Protestants simply don’t believe in purgatory. Period.

So my question is: Do you think they won’t make it into heaven if their beloved once don’t pray for them when they are dead, as they don’t believe in Purgatory and in Praying for the Dead?!

I’m asking because of a person I know. It’s the granddad of a friend of mine. He was Lutheran and died in a Electricity-accident. (Very brutal death, IMO).
And I don’t think, as all his family is Lutheran, they will pray for him. As it is simply not the custom in the Lutheran tradition to do so.

Will he go to hell as noone is praying for him?

Again the original quote we are referring upon:

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers** that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pra**y or make sacrifices for them.