The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[GaryTaylor]

The name of Jesus means “God saves” (from hell). The Holy Spirit is love. Ask the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus to save those today who won’t make it when called. We must ask now for tomorrow will be to late for them.

This is how we should teach hell, in a loving, positive way, doing the very work of Jesus Himself. Remembering His suffering, say, “Please Lord Jesus, have mercy on them whom you are calling today.” Have this intention in you morning offering, they need you desperately.

“…love everyone, but especially the brethern.” Paul, the convert and murderer.

No, I believe people need to hear the Truth, not a sugar coated message which they can easily rationalize and dismiss. And that is love:thumbsup: Jesus had no issue giving his message directly.

It also depends on where and to whom you are talking to. Catholic Church, not so much, but even there they need to hear the truth now and again also.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The number of uncatechized adult Catholics is very concerning. Hell is not a pleasant subject, but a reality nevertheless. It is important, I think, that people understand that those who end up in hell have chosen this for themselves by rejecting the mercy and grace of God. It is His desire that all be saved.

Agree’d. last few generations have been a disaster. But in Catholic School. hell was plainly laid out for everyone. And I’m sure, when sisters are teaching it still is.

Its a different world today. Kids come to school with cell-phones and dial 911 and claim psychological abuse if you get to detailed. And the parents will be right there. Is it helping society today? Well look around, have you ever seen this world in more chaos? Schools call the parents constantly. how well does it seve society? The proof is in the pudding.

With the RCIA its definately different today. And Church its a bit different. The overall idea is peace and love through the Lord. They are not trying to scare followers away. Attendance is just increeasing again last few years. And the Catholic way of life isn’t promising comfortability. Ceratianly no dancing, music, like Church TV down south with no Cross in sight.

But no I believe it need be clearly laided out for them. Thats what will save their soul. Not some flowery message that that no-one is listening to and goes right over the head.

Look at fatima, those children were what 9. 7, and 14?

I talk to the kids like there adults, and IMHO it serves us both best.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Julian0404,

How does the vision of Fatima fit with the teaching of Pope John Paul II?

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.

1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. **It is not a punishment imposed externally by God **but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation

1. To describe this reality **Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language **which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).

1. *The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. **This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).

**“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. **In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan

1. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no”, which marks the human creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com​

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[Esdra]

Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the
Vision of Hell

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them.

Just a quick thought from a non-Catholic:
Does this mean then that non-Catholic Christians will go to hell? As they don’t have anyone who prays for them when they are dead. As praying for the dead is not a custom among Protestants.

And in General: I don’t believe in such visions. IMO, noone knows who is really talking here…

In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”

www.fatima.org

 

[GaryTaylor]

What are we talking about here? The magnitude of Hell? How bad its gonna be?

Eternal damnation is mentioned 4X by Pope JPII, I’m not sure what you “think” that may mean? The fact that JPII didn’t mention the Fire, doesn’t remove the fact that Benedict XVI does mention the Inferno, and the Seers of Fatima certainly saw what they explained to be the Internal Inferno.

If we are debating semantics I fail to grasp the purpose. Eternal Damnation is Eternal Damnation, “DAMNATION” being the key word here, which BTW no-one fails to mention [look up that word] and all placed it in conjunction with Eternal.

The fact that both JPII and Benedict are very quick to point out “They are not Mystics” should also give a clue they are speaking from what they “heard and read”.

Two of the Seers are Blessed, the Third was the “main Seer” of Fatima and the most significant to come along in centurys. She was a Mystic. Honestly do you think they made that up?

 

[rinnie]

Indeed. I cannot speak for other Christians,but many adult Catholics truly believe everyone is going to Heaven. Really? My rebuttal to many who believe such a fallacy:

Then I guess we are all wasting our time here teaching and proclaiming the Gospel,if we are all going to Heaven?

And it would make the Apostles work quite useless also, would you not agree. I mean why would Jesus leave us the Church, the Eucharist, the Sacraments if we were all saved.

I am shocked that many Catholic’s also believe this. Oh well, it shows one thing for sure, the Catholic’s who know their faith and those who do not. And the ones who attend Church and do not

 

[rinnie]

Just a quick thought from a non-Catholic:
Does this mean then that non-Catholic Christians will go to hell? As they don’t have anyone who prays for them when they are dead. As praying for the dead is not a custom among Protestants.

And in General: I don’t believe in such visions. IMO, noone knows who is really talking here…

This makes no sense. If a person goes to purgatory that means they are saved but have some, lets say issues to resolve. The main issue is that the person has not quite gotten rid of some of the mental issues of sin. Its kind of like the urge to sin is gone, but you can still see the fun you had in the sin itself. In purgatory all must be gone. Your mind must be completely Christ like.

Now back to your question, when we pray for our loved ones we can make their path to complete eternal life in Christ easier is all. Just like we can in this world.

To make it even simplier, do you see what prayer in this world can do for a loved one here with us? Then my next question, do you not feel our prayers can be heard for them in the next world also?

Bottom line Prayer works, rather the person is in purgatory, or here on earth. If you pray for a loved one God listens!!

So do you see why I cannot see the reasoning in your question. To me its like why pray for anyone at all? Or to put it another way, if we do not pray for our brothers and sisters in this world are they going to hell! Thats what I got out of your question.

 

[RyanBlack]

And it would make the Apostles work quite useless also, would you not agree. I mean why would Jesus leave us the Church, the Eucharist, the Sacraments if we were all saved.

I am shocked that many Catholic’s also believe this. Oh well, it shows one thing for sure, the Catholic’s who know their faith and those who do not. And the ones who attend Church and do not

Insulting, generalizing comments like this do not advance your position. Are you aware that there are canonized saints who believed in universal salvation? I rather suspect that they both knew their faith and attended Church quite regularly, as do some of those who currently believe in universal salvation.

 

[benidict]

Insulting, generalizing comments like this do not advance your position. Are you aware that there are canonized saints who believed in universal salvation? I rather suspect that they both knew their faith and attended Church quite regularly, as do some of those who currently believe in universal salvation.

Hi Ryan. May I ask you, what universal salvation is? I dont believe I have ever heard this term. does it mean that every body eventually makes it to Heaven? Thanks

 

[RyanBlack]

Hi. Universal salvation refers to the belief that ultimately, everyone will be saved.

 

[frnate]

As a Director of Catechetical Ministry at a local Roman Catholic parish located at So.Cal., a particular topic has caught my attention: Hell. I find it amazing at the amount of parents who get offended when Hell is taught or mentioned. I have had numerous complaints by parents telling me why I allow my catechist to teach about Hell? My rebuttal: Since when has the RCC denied the existence of Hell?

My question to my non-Catholic brethen is simple:

Does your particular Christian tradition (Baptist,Methodist,etc) teach about Hell?

God Bless

Having been raised an I.F.B.* in the 60’s and 70’s, not only was it mentioned in nearly every sermon we even made movies about it. See Estus Pirkle It is a very common tactic to try and scare people out of hell (or vice versa) in that branch of the Baptist church. Bonfires at night are also particularly effective.

Pax,
++N

• I.F.B. = Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

[Anna_Scott]

What are we talking about here? The magnitude of Hell? How bad its gonna be?

Eternal damnation is mentioned 4X by Pope JPII, I’m not sure what you “think” that may mean? The fact that JPII didn’t mention the Fire, doesn’t remove the fact that Benedict XVI does mention the Inferno, and the Seers of Fatima certainly saw what they explained to be the Internal Inferno.

If we are debating semantics I fail to grasp the purpose. Eternal Damnation is Eternal Damnation, “DAMNATION” being the key word here, which BTW no-one fails to mention [look up that word] and all placed it in conjunction with Eternal.

The fact that both JPII and Benedict are very quick to point out “They are not Mystics” should also give a clue they are speaking from what they “heard and read”.

Two of the Seers are Blessed, the Third was the “main Seer” of Fatima and the most significant to come along in centurys. She was a Mystic. Honestly do you think they made that up?

GaryTaylor,

I didn’t ask my question about how the vision of Fatima fits with the teaching of Pope John Paul II to be difficult or argumentative. I really want to understand this.

In “HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY” Pope John Paul II said:

**“Hell is the State of Those who Reject God.”

“Hell is is a state of eternal damnation; and not a punishment imposed externally by God.”

“Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language.”

“The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.).”

“Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9)."

“The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair. . . .”**

So, if the Scriptures use symbolic/figurative language about Hell “fire,” how does this fit with the vision of Fatima?

See my post #23

. . . . .

**HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God. . . . .**

 

[rinnie]

Insulting, generalizing comments like this do not advance your position. Are you aware that there are canonized saints who believed in universal salvation? I rather suspect that they both knew their faith and attended Church quite regularly, as do some of those who currently believe in universal salvation.

What are you talking about? The teaching that is taught by Jesus is not that everyone will go to heaven. Are you saying that Saints denied the teaching of Christ and denied hell? I do not understand what I said that was insulting. I said that the CC teaches about heaven and hell. That is Catholic teaching. Matt. 7: 21-23 Are you saying the Saints rejected these words

 

[Bran_Stark]

Indeed. I cannot speak for other Christians,but many adult Catholics truly believe everyone is going to Heaven. Really? My rebuttal to many who believe such a fallacy:

Then I guess we are all wasting our time here teaching and proclaiming the Gospel,if we are all going to Heaven?

I don’t believe in universalism. But were it otherwise, proclaiming the Gospel would not be a waste of time even so. Our Lord commanded us to evangelize, in His own good pleasure and for His own good reasons. The Truth is the Truth, and if for no other reason it should be made known.

 

[Nicea325]

And it would make the Apostles work quite useless also, would you not agree. I mean why would Jesus leave us the Church, the Eucharist, the Sacraments if we were all saved.

I am shocked that many Catholic’s also believe this. Oh well, it shows one thing for sure, the Catholic’s who know their faith and those who do not. And the ones who attend Church and do not

Indeed. Exactly! Why would Jesus leave the sacraments and Church, if we are all saved? You are shocked? Imagine how I feel being the Director of Catechesis?

 

[RyanBlack]

What are you talking about? The teaching that is taught by Jesus is not that everyone will go to heaven. Are you saying that Saints denied the teaching of Christ and denied hell? I do not understand what I said that was insulting. I said that the CC teaches about heaven and hell. That is Catholic teaching. Matt. 7: 21-23 Are you saying the Saints rejected these words

What I am saying is that it is generalizing and insulting for you to claim or imply that those who believe in universal salvation do not know the Catholic faith and that they don’t go to Church. Included among those who believed in universal salvation are some saints. As far as contemporary Catholics who believe in universal salvation, it would be a mistake to generalize and assume that they do not know the faith or that they do not regularly attend Church.

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t believe in universalism. But were it otherwise, proclaiming the Gospel would not be a waste of time even so. Our Lord commanded us to evangelize, in His own good pleasure and for His own good reasons. The Truth is the Truth, and if for no other reason it should be made known.

I agree,proclaiming the Gospel is not a waste,but those who believe everyone is going to Heaven,apparently believe in a different Gospel.

 

[Nicea325]

What I am saying is that it is generalizing and insulting for you to claim or imply that those who believe in universal salvation do not know the Catholic faith and that they don’t go to Church. Included among those who believed in universal salvation are some saints. As far as contemporary Catholics who believe in universal salvation, it would be a mistake to generalize and assume that they do not know the faith or that they do not regularly attend Church.

I agree we should not generalize,but let me tell you something. I deal with a lot of parents and I can honestly say most do not know their faith,despite attending Mass.

 

[rinnie]

What I am saying is that it is generalizing and insulting for you to claim or imply that those who believe in universal salvation do not know the Catholic faith and that they don’t go to Church. Included among those who believed in universal salvation are some saints. As far as contemporary Catholics who believe in universal salvation, it would be a mistake to generalize and assume that they do not know the faith or that they do not regularly attend Church.

Okay, now its my turn. I am saying that it is not taught in the RCC. Now would you say that someone that knows their Catholic faith would say that the Catholic Church teaches this? Yes or No?

Second when I said that if someone feels the Church teaches this I must assume they do not attend mass regularly! Why? Simple the Priest teaches this in his sermon quite regularly.

Why would the Priest have Communion, confession on a regular basis is all are saved?

 

[RyanBlack]

I agree we should not generalize,but let me tell you something. I deal with a lot of parents and I can honestly say most do not know their faith,despite attending Mass.

I don’t doubt that. On the other hand, I doubt that St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Origen, or Hans Urs von Balthasar (all of whom believed in-or at least were sympathetic to-universal salvation) didn’t know the faith-and these are just four whose names quickly come to mind. I can also assure that I am very familiar with Catholic teachings and I tend towards a universalist position. I can also assure you that plenty of others who think as I do on this matter know the Catholic faith very well. I have no doubt that there are those who embrace universalism and don’t know the faith very well. On the other hand, there are those whose hope in the possibility is based not in lack of awareness, but in Holy Scripture and in teachings like those of St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. Gregory of Nyssa.