The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[Dokimas]

And this my Friend, is a very wise frame of mind to have. This is the proper fear of God that gives wisdom. May The Holy Spirit guide you into All Truth. Peace to you and yours.

I appreciate your kind words. Oh that God would keep me from straying which in this world is too easy to do, stray that is.

Yes, as the Proverb says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

 

[Anna_Scott]

In reference to Gregory of Nazianzen talking of the universality of all being saved, see
www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm, which says:

But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, “Theologische Zeitfragen”, 2nd series, 190 sqq.).

Someone asked about the meaning of Christ being lifted up to draw all men to Himself.
According to Catherine of Sienna, it meant that He chose that way to suffer and die so that even the hardest of the hardest of men would see his suffering and be moved to accept Him. So that not even one would be lost. I’m not sure of the exact words she used, but this is close.

Again someone asked about others going to hell other than Catholics. As far as I am aware, the Church as always said that other Christians in good faith (will) seeking the truth and following it as they know it, will be saved. This holds true even for others not Christian as long as they are doing what they perceive as the will of God and pursue it.
However having said that, noone knows they will go to heaven for certain. And if a person has committed a serious crime(sin) without adequate repentance before death, this will
also exclude them from eternal happiness.

I don’t want to get to windy here, but there was one more item: praying for the dead.
The Catholic teaching is that the soul (spirit) does not die at human death, but that it continues to exist, and never dies. We believe that judgement takes place at the moment of death and the soul of the person either goes to heaven, purgatory, or hell. Those in heaven or hell, we do not pray for, because in heaven they do not need our prayers, and in hell they would not benefit from our prayers. Those in purgatory we pray for because they are in suffering before going to heaven. We pray for everyone in purgatory, all faiths, all peoples, all nationalities, without any exception of any kind. There is a lot more that could be said but I’m getting too long.

"…love everyone, especially the brethern.’ Paul, convert and murderer.

fred conty,

You said you don’t pray for those in Heaven or Hell. How do you know whether or not someone is in Purgatory and would benefit from your prayers?

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

fred conty,

You said you don’t pray for those in Heaven or Hell. How do you know whether or not someone is in Purgatory and would benefit from your prayers?

Anna

Hi Anna.

That’s a great point. This occurs, without thinking, many times when a family member dies. When my mother died, she truly was such a holy person that I thought it impossible that she would be anywhere but in heaven and to pray for her amounted to me doubting that she went straight to heaven. When time past, and after several conversations with my priest, I began praying daily for her and having Masses offered for her. We should never assume that the deceased don’t need our prayers.

If we know someone is in heaven, i.e they have been canonized, that is when we ask them to pray for us. As far as hell is concerned, that is something we can never know. We must always trust in the mercy of God and purgatory is His mercy.

God bless you. Hope you are doing well.

 

[Esdra]

Because someone does not “believe” in something…does not make it not so!
Even the bible speaks of a “third heaven”…do we know all the answers? Heavens, no! But we do believe that there were many things that were not written in Scripture, it is stated in Scripture, that if everything that was spoken was written, it could not be all contained…that is why we do not believe in Sola Scriptura…we have a Magesterium that teaches…is Apostolic, and we believe!

Well, we don’t know all the answers. Thus you Catholics also don’t know IF there is a purgatory or not. As far as I know only Catholics actually do believe in purgatory (and the limbus - which would then even make “4 heavens”, if you count hell is the anti-hell or so (x). ). The Orthodox don’t. - But of course I can err as well here…

(x) - or what would the third heaven in the Bible otherwise be? Heaven - purgatory - ? - Hell?!

Yeah, the thing with " if everything that was spoken was written, it could not be all contained" lead people to do strange things. (I’m thinking of Joseph Smith Jr. here)…
You see, I don’t believe in the Magisterium…

Why should we have any concerns regarding “hell” as believers, if we are** working out our salvation with fear and trembling**…Jesus is there to help us…the whole way!

You’re right on this one.
And actually, this is what I often miss among Evangelicals: The “fear of God”. - They usually say He is the Heavenly Father who loves as, as we are His adopted children through Christ Jesus.
But I often have the feeling that they then sometimes seem to forget that God is a god.
Something unbelivable mighty and powerful. - When you read the OT, the Jews indeed had great fear of the Lord. Even in David’s psalms you can read this fear out of them.
But I suppose you meant with the term “with fear and trembling” something different than I do. Don’t Catholic use this verse (which’d be Phil 2:12) to prove that there is Purgatory, so that they have a New Testament quote?? Together with the “third heaven” you mentioned (which’d be 2 Cor 12:2).

 

[Nicea325]

Well, we don’t know all the answers. Thus you Catholics also don’t know IF there is a purgatory or not.

For those who doubt,of course they have no certitude,if exists.

As far as I know only Catholics actually do believe in purgatory (and the limbus - which would then even make “4 heavens”, if you count hell is the anti-hell or so (x). ). The Orthodox don’t. - But of course I can err as well here…

Wrong! The Jews did and orthodox Jews still do. Problem is that you adhere to a ‘newer’ Christianity which simply rejected,but does not negate its existence.

(x) - or what would the third heaven in the Bible otherwise be? Heaven - purgatory - ? - Hell?!

Come again?

Yeah, the thing with " if everything that was spoken was written, it could not be all contained" lead people to do strange things. (I’m thinking of Joseph Smith Jr. here)…
You see, I don’t believe in the Magisterium…

Precisely why there exist chaos and massive divisions in Protestanism,rejection of authority.

 

[Esdra]

For those who doubt,of course they have no certitude,if exists.

Then you could also say: If only Muslims go to heaven, we all should believe in Islam and become Muslims.
The “what-if-sentences” are not really expediant when discussing religion. IMO.
Because EVERY religion has something which might be true…
What if we are reborn after our death? Should we not become Buddhists and search for a way out of the circle of rebirth?

Basically the same thing with infant baptism: What if a child is NOT safed when it dies without baptism?

Wrong! The Jews did and orthodox Jews still do. Problem is that you adhere to a ‘newer’ Christianity which simply rejected,but does not negate its existence.

Jews believe in purgatory? Do you have any resources for that? Does it say in the OT?

Come again?

Sorry for the confusion the “(x)” should actually be a kind of footnote.
Here it is again:
As far as I know only Catholics actually do believe in purgatory (and the limbus - which would then even make “4 heavens”, if you count hell is the anti-hell or so. (?)
What are the “3 heavens” in 2 Cor 12:2? Heaven - ? - Purgatory → Where is the second?! Is it the Limbus? I’ve always thought that’s Catholic doctrine because baptism is necessary for salvation and the Church wanted to comfort the parents whose babies die before baptism.

Precisely why there exist chaos and massive divisions in Protestanism,rejection of authority.

I’ll put in relatvism a bit now: Why should the CC have authority?
And don’t come with the Bible. (To keep being advocatus diabolus). Because how do we know that the Bible is really the inerrant word of God?
Why shouldn’t the Qu’ran be the inerrant word of God? And we got it all wrong as Muslims keep saying?
Or why not the Book of Mormon? (“The most correct book on earth”, as Joseph Smith Jr. wrote?)

 

[GaryTaylor]

No Limbo

I have to say, I don’t remember this teaching either. I have heard the concept, but don’t remember it being taught.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
For those who doubt,of course they have no certitude,if exists.

Then you could also say: If only Muslims go to heaven, we all should believe in Islam and become Muslims.
The “what-if-sentences” are not really expediant when discussing religion. IMO.
Because EVERY religion has something which might be true…
What if we are reborn after our death? Should we not become Buddhists and search for a way out of the circle of rebirth?

Basically the same thing with infant baptism: What if a child is NOT safed when it dies without baptism?

I see no correlation with the above with purgatory. And yes every religion has some truth.

Quote:
Wrong! The Jews did and orthodox Jews still do. Problem is that you adhere to a ‘newer’ Christianity which simply rejected,but does not negate its existence.

Jews believe in purgatory? Do you have any resources for that? Does it say in the OT?

Yes they do. Absolutely-the book of Maccabees,which is why a Protestant as yourself rejects, due to their novelties.

Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine.

Quote:
Come again?

Sorry for the confusion the “(x)” should actually be a kind of footnote.
Here it is again:
As far as I know only Catholics actually do believe in purgatory (and the limbus - which would then even make “4 heavens”, if you count hell is the anti-hell or so. (?)
What are the “3 heavens” in 2 Cor 12:2? Heaven - ? - Purgatory → Where is the second?! Is it the Limbus? I’ve always thought that’s Catholic doctrine because baptism is necessary for salvation and the Church wanted to comfort the parents whose babies die before baptism.

Nope! Early church fathers are defend it. ONLY Protestants reject purgatory. BTW: Limbo is not and was NEVER taught as a doctrine. It is nothing but theological speculation,much like universal salvation.

Quote:
Precisely why there exist chaos and massive divisions in Protestanism,rejection of authority.

I’ll put in relatvism a bit now: Why should the CC have authority?

Relativism-of course,another reason why a lot of churches are founded. The attitude: WE will do it OUR WAY! And why should our government have authority? Imagine a country with NO AUTHORITY? Chaos and ,divisions-hhhhhmmmmm similar to Protestanism?

And don’t come with the Bible. (To keep being advocatus diabolus). Because how do we know that the Bible is really the inerrant word of God?
Why shouldn’t the Qu’ran be the inerrant word of God? And we got it all wrong as Muslims keep saying?
Or why not the Book of Mormon? (“The most correct book on earth”, as Joseph Smith Jr. wrote?)

How do we know the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? If it is NOT,then why bother?

 

[rinnie]

Then you could also say: If only Muslims go to heaven, we all should believe in Islam and become Muslims.
The “what-if-sentences” are not really expediant when discussing religion. IMO.
Because EVERY religion has something which might be true…
What if we are reborn after our death? Should we not become Buddhists and search for a way out of the circle of rebirth?

Basically the same thing with infant baptism: What if a child is NOT safed when it dies without baptism?

Jews believe in purgatory? Do you have any resources for that? Does it say in the OT?

Sorry for the confusion the “(x)” should actually be a kind of footnote.
Here it is again:
As far as I know only Catholics actually do believe in purgatory (and the limbus - which would then even make “4 heavens”, if you count hell is the anti-hell or so. (?)
What are the “3 heavens” in 2 Cor 12:2? Heaven - ? - Purgatory → Where is the second?! Is it the Limbus? I’ve always thought that’s Catholic doctrine because baptism is necessary for salvation and the Church wanted to comfort the parents whose babies die before baptism.

I’ll put in relatvism a bit now: Why should the CC have authority?
And don’t come with the Bible. (To keep being advocatus diabolus). Because how do we know that the Bible is really the inerrant word of God?
Why shouldn’t the Qu’ran be the inerrant word of God? And we got it all wrong as Muslims keep saying?
Or why not the Book of Mormon? (“The most correct book on earth”, as Joseph Smith Jr. wrote?)

The answer to that is quite simple. The bible of course does not have authority. Why do you ask is it the CC. Simply because the word of God states that.

It says the CHURCH is the pilar of all truth, not the bible, not the Qur’ran and the Book of Mormon. The Church is the answer.

What is the Church that was established on the day of Pentecost. SImple the CC.

 

[rinnie]

Esdra, if you reject purgatory tell me this. WHERE would you feel that the final cleansing takes place as described in the bible?

It cannot be on this earth, simply because you have had your final judgement from God.

And it cannot be hell, because if you are going to hell what would be the reason for the final cleansing. Cleansed for what? If you are in hell its over, no final cleansing is needed.

So if there is not a MIDDLE place as they say, which the Church calls purgatory, simply because the soul is purged and has it final cleansing, where would you say this takes place?

Because you are saying you reject the middle place the Church calls purgatory, Correct?

So where does this cleansing take place? And if you do not know, what do you do with this scripture? What is your Church’s understanding of it?

 

[rinnie]

fred conty,

You said you don’t pray for those in Heaven or Hell. How do you know whether or not someone is in Purgatory and would benefit from your prayers?

Anna

Hi Anna, we don’t know for sure if someone we love is in Purgatory, but we pray for the souls that are. We know that they benefit from our prayers because praying is what is taught to us by Jesus.

When Jesus said in the bible to Peter, Peter I have prayed for you, we know that praying helps. Jesus put no limit on prayers. He never said that you can only pray for those in this world and not the next.

To deny prayers in purgatory to help someone would have to put a limit on the bounds of prayer. And the word of God teaches there is no limit to the extend of what prayers can do for someone.

We know that prayer works for the living, We as Catholic’s do not believe in death, Jesus took that away when he died on the Cross. The body may have limits in this world but the soul moves on and lives forever.

Even in this world we never pray for the body of one, we pray for that persons soul. Same in the next world, purgatory, if they are there its the same soul that had in the body here.

IF the prayers are not needed and they are already in heaven, whats the down side of that praying? You just spent some extra time with God is all, and that extra time praying may be the time that you could not get yourself into sin, and may have saved you

 

[Esdra]

Esdra, if you reject purgatory tell me this. WHERE would you feel that the final cleansing takes place as described in the bible?

It cannot be on this earth, simply because you have had your final judgement from God.

And it cannot be hell, because if you are going to hell what would be the reason for the final cleansing. Cleansed for what? If you are in hell its over, no final cleansing is needed.

So if there is not a MIDDLE place as they say, which the Church calls purgatory, simply because the soul is purged and has it final cleansing, where would you say this takes place?

Because you are saying you reject the middle place the Church calls purgatory, Correct?

So where does this cleansing take place? And if you do not know, what do you do with this scripture? What is your Church’s understanding of it?

Very good questions! Because, frankly I don’t know the understanding of the Baptist Church of it.
Please tell me where is the verse which describes purgatory, according to Catholics.
I’ll research it.

I only know that Baptists teach that if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour, you are, so to speak, granted a ticket for heaven, because then one has accepted God’s gift to us which is Jesus death on the Cross for our sins. Because then we are children of God. Our sins are then erased in the eyes of God, as if we would never have sinned (and this also implies the sin of the first human, Adam. - The Original Sinm as Catholics call it.) And although we’ll always sin, even though we are Children of God, God will forgive us in His mercy if we ask for forgiveness. The aim is to lead a holy life after becoming a reborn. So, you could sum up, once saved - always saved. Nothing can seperate us from God’s great love towards His children.

Those who hear about Jesus and willingly reject this gift will go to hell.

Those who don’t hear about Jesus will be judged according to their deeds on earth.

 

[rinnie]

Very good questions! Because, frankly I don’t know the understanding of the Baptist Church of it.
Please tell me where is the verse which describes purgatory, according to Catholics.
I’ll research it.

I only know that Baptists teach that if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour, you are, so to speak, granted a ticket for heaven, because then one has accepted God’s gift to us which is Jesus death on the Cross for our sins. Because then we are children of God. Our sins are then erased in the eyes of God, as if we would never have sinned (and this also implies the sin of the first human, Adam. - The Original Sinm as Catholics call it.) And although we’ll always sin, even though we are Children of God, God will forgive us in His mercy if we ask for forgiveness. The aim is to lead a holy life after becoming a reborn. So, you could sum up, once saved - always saved. Nothing can seperate us from God’s great love towards His children.

Those who hear about Jesus and willingly reject this gift will go to hell.

Those who don’t hear about Jesus will be judged according to their deeds on earth.

Read post 128 It explains the final purification. Also where is the scripture that offers this guaranteed ticket, I would love to purchase one. As far as accepting Christ as you personal Savior, that just won’t cut it. The Lord left us many of things we must do besides believe in him. Could you show me the scripture that gives us that guaranteed ticket? Again Can’t wait to see that scriputure

 

[rinnie]

Also my friend there is something that can separate us from God and his love, and thats the horrible thing we call sin. Sin is death to the soul. So I would also like to see the scripture that states sin does not separate us from Christ. thanks

 

[Nicea325]

Esdra, if you reject purgatory tell me this. WHERE would you feel that the final cleansing takes place as described in the bible?

It cannot be on this earth, simply because you have had your final judgement from God.

And it cannot be hell, because if you are going to hell what would be the reason for the final cleansing. Cleansed for what? If you are in hell its over, no final cleansing is needed.

So if there is not a MIDDLE place as they say, which the Church calls purgatory, simply because the soul is purged and has it final cleansing, where would you say this takes place?

Because you are saying you reject the middle place the Church calls purgatory, Correct?

So where does this cleansing take place? And if you do not know, what do you do with this scripture? What is your Church’s understanding of it?

Likewise, purification is essential, Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Furthermore,purgatory is NOT limbo as many Protestants claim.

 

[Nicea325]

Very good questions! Because, frankly I don’t know the understanding of the Baptist Church of it.
Please tell me where is the verse which describes purgatory, according to Catholics.
I’ll research it.

I only know that Baptists teach that if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour, you are, so to speak, granted a ticket for heaven, because then one has accepted God’s gift to us which is Jesus death on the Cross for our sins. Because then we are children of God. Our sins are then erased in the eyes of God, as if we would never have sinned (and this also implies the sin of the first human, Adam. - The Original Sinm as Catholics call it.) And although we’ll always sin, even though we are Children of God, God will forgive us in His mercy if we ask for forgiveness. The aim is to lead a holy life after becoming a reborn. So, you could sum up, once saved - always saved. Nothing can seperate us from God’s great love towards His children.

Those who hear about Jesus and willingly reject this gift will go to hell.

Those who don’t hear about Jesus will be judged according to their deeds on earth.

Sorry,but the once saved always saved is bogus and unscriptural. Salvation is a process,not a one time event. Let me ask you something? If a Baptist merely confesses:

I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior

He or she is instantly saved and cannot lose salvation-correct? What if a Baptist decides to become a follower of the Catholic/Orthodox Church? Will he or she lose their salvation for leaving the Baptist Church?

 

[Esdra]

Sorry,but the once saved always saved is bogus and unscriptural. Salvation is a process,not a one time event. Let me ask you something? If a Baptist merely confesses:

I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior

He or she is instantly saved and cannot lose salvation-correct? What if a Baptist decides to become a follower of the Catholic/Orthodox Church? Will he or she lose their salvation for leaving the Baptist Church?

No, of course not. Unless, of course, he/she willingly rejects Jesus i.e. by a “non-Christian” lifestyle without repenting.

Salvation does not depend upon a specific denomination. When you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour and are living a Christian life, then you are saved.
Theoretically, you would not even need to go to a specific denomination after your “conversion”. But it’s of course highly recommended because the brothers and sisters in Christ will help to grow spiritually, to get to know Jesus always better and to become more and more like Him. Also the conversed person can help the others on that journey.

A brethern in Christ once told me: He was evangelizing in Switzerland and a girl then enthrusted Jesus her life and became a Pentecostal (Every Nation).
Later on then she went back to the CC and went to a monastery. (Became a nun.)
My brethern then asked her why she did so and she answered, "That’s the best thing I could ever have done! The whole people in the monastery now have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and are “faithful” [That’s the term they use, if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour!]. This monastery now is part of the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Esdra]

Read post 128 It explains the final purification. Also where is the scripture that offers this guaranteed ticket, I would love to purchase one. As far as accepting Christ as you personal Savior, that just won’t cut it. The Lord left us many of things we must do besides believe in him. Could you show me the scripture that gives us that guaranteed ticket? Again Can’t wait to see that scriputure

Esdra:

Very good questions! Because, frankly I don’t know the understanding of the Baptist Church of it.
Please tell me where is the verse which describes purgatory, according to Catholics.
I’ll research it.

Mhm, 2 Maccabees doesn’t help me. If I ask my pastor about 2 Maccabees he’ll respond, “Forget that, these are apocrypha and not the Word of God.”

rinnie:

So where does this cleansing take place? And if you do not know, what do you do with this scripture? What is your Church’s understanding of it?

So, rinnie I’d like to have a verse where it says about the “final cleansing”. So that I can ask my pastor what Baptists believe concerning that, in order to answer your question above.

 

[Esdra]

Likewise, purification is essential, Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Furthermore,purgatory is NOT limbo as many Protestants claim.

I never claimed that.
Gary has told me that Limbo doesn’t exist anymore. See above. He gave me a newspaper article.

You haven’t answered my question concerning the “third heaven”.
2 Cor 12:2, " 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. "
Please tell me the names of the “three heavens”. Because I only count two: Heaven and Purgatory.
So, actually, the second heaven is missing!
[This strongly reminds of the Glories in the LDS Church: Celestial Glory, Terrestial Glory and Telestial Glory. - There are three. Compare Doctrine and Covenants 76”]D&C 76)

 

[Nicea325]

I never claimed that.
Gary has told me that Limbo doesn’t exist anymore. See above. He gave me a newspaper article.

You haven’t answered my question concerning the “third heaven”.
2 Cor 12:2, " 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. "
Please tell me the names of the “three heavens”. Because I only count two: Heaven and Purgatory.
So, actually, the second heaven is missing!
[This strongly reminds of the Glories in the LDS Church: Celestial Glory, Terrestial Glory and Telestial Glory. - There are three. Compare Doctrine and Covenants 76”]D&C 76

)

I’ll asnwer yours,but answer my first. If purgatory is an ‘invention’ where are the historical records confirming protests by the early church and Christians?