The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[bigquests]

Indeed. I cannot speak for other Christians,but many adult Catholics truly believe everyone is going to Heaven. Really? My rebuttal to many who believe such a fallacy:

Then I guess we are all wasting our time here teaching and proclaiming the Gospel,if we are all going to Heaven?

Darn. Here I was being good for goodness’ sake. I thought that virtue was its own reward.

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;7632210]Yes Jacky it could. Because paradise was not heaven at that time. Paradise was where the souls were held to be given their judgement from Christ.

Only the righteous can go to Purgatory. But being righteous does not mean that we do not have to have the final purification.

Paradise is proof that there was a middle place, it was not heaven, we know this because Jesus did not open heaven yet, and it was not hell. because the rich man was not with them.

The word of God has never said that all souls will go directly to heaven or hell at the time of Judgement. It just says at our death we will have our final judgement. And some souls will need to be cleansed to be made worthy of heaven. Where would the final cleansing be done. Because if you go directly to heaven, you would be unclean, and nothing unclean shall enter heaven. And if you are deemed unworthy you will not be given a final cleansing.

Purgatory is Not for those who choose for themselves; HELL.

Purgatory is a necessary element of God’s Love tempered with Divine Justice.

In order to attain heaven; all MUST BE formed into the FULLER immage of God. Because God is Perfect; not a single soul; that hs not beeen perfected, can be in God’s Presence.

So it’s purpose is to PERMIT those who have died w/o unconfessed; unfogiven Mortal sins; but may have lesser sins; or the always present; payback for sins that have not been given restitutation before there death.

Such souls must be perfected and purified in order to attain heaven.

** Rev. 21: 27** “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**1 Cor. 3: 13-14 **“each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, **he will suffer loss, [Purgatory[/COLOR]] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"

**Reference to Purgatory **[becuse there is NO RELEASE FROM HELL!] **Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

That is why God permites the CC to have Indulgences. It’s fuction is to “pay-back” for the efects of sin on humanity and the Church.

God Bless;

Pat**

 

[rinnie]

Purgatory is Not for those who choose for themselves; HELL.

Purgatory is a necessary element of God’s Love tempered with Divine Justice.

In order to attain heaven; all MUST BE formed into the FULLER immage of God. Because God is Perfect; not a single soul; that hs not beeen perfected, can be in God’s Presence.

So it’s purpose is to PERMIT those who have died w/o unconfessed; unfogiven Mortal sins; but may have lesser sins; or the always present; payback for sins that have not been given restitutation before there death.

Such souls must be perfected and purified in order to attain heaven.

** Rev. 21: 27** “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**1 Cor. 3: 13-14 **“each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory[/COLOR]] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"

**Reference to Purgatory **[becuse there is NO RELEASE FROM HELL!] **Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

That is why God permites the CC to have Indulgences. It’s fuction is to “pay-back” for the efects of sin on humanity and the Church.

God Bless;

Pat

Hi PM I agree. But I do not believe I said that Purgatory was for those who reject Christ I just said that I believe the good thief could have indeed gone to Purgatory.

 

[DENNYINMI]

Luther didn’t remove anything, neither did he reject any book of the Bible. He just put the deuterocanonical Books in the “Appendix” and didn’t put it into the “appropriate places” (from the Catholic perspective). - Similar to St. Jerome in his Vulgate!
He didn’t remove anything but, in fact, even added the “Prayer of Manasseh”.
As far as I know the Lutherans use up to the present day the Holy Bible WITH THE APOCRYPHA (Luther’s Translation).
The removing only started later. There are quite interesting threads here on CAF, concerning the removing of the “Apocrypha” from the KJV i.e… Have a look at them!

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

Luther studied the Church teaching’s and he reformed the Church as it has gone most certainly into apostasy, especially when you have a look at Luther’s time the 16th century.
No Bible for private study. The people were told that they wouldn’t understand the Holy Bible anyway. - Only a priest does. The selling of indulgences etc…

This topic is too hot for me. I can’t answer these questions. - And also won’t.
I simply believe that there is no purgatory, as the Baptist’s teach and dot.

Lets just say Luther “tailored” the Bible:

Others had translated the Bible into German, but Luther tailored his translation to his own doctrine.[120] When he was criticised for inserting the word “alone” after “faith” in Romans 3:28,[121] he replied in part: “[T]he text itself and the meaning of St. Paul urgently require and demand it. For in that very passage he is dealing with the main point of Christian doctrine, namely, that we are justified by faith in Christ without any works of the Law . . . But when works are so completely cut away – and that must mean that faith alone justifies – whoever would speak plainly and clearly about this cutting away of works will have to say, ‘Faith alone justifies us, and not works’.” [122]

Luther’s translation used the variant of German spoken at the Saxon chancellery, intelligible to both northern and southern Germans.[123] He intended his vigorous, direct language to make the Bible accessible to everyday Germans, “for we are removing impediments and difficulties so that other people may read it without hindrance.”[124]

Info. from Wiki

Luther threw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;7635612]Hi PM I agree. But I do not believe I said that Purgatory was for those who reject Christ I just said that I believe the good thief could have indeed gone to Purgatory.

**THANKS,

IMO “no”, here’s why:**

As I beleive you eariler stated heaven was not open until the Ressuration; the culmanation and beggining of THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST BLOOD. Agreed? This is FACT is the meaing of "redeemed."

Thus “the Theif who stole heaven”[Bishop Sheen… Life of Christ], would have still been judged on the conditions of the Old Covenant.

I am personaly unaware of any OT reference to Purgatory; this being because those covered in this Covennt "were under the Law;: where as we are “Covered under Grace.”

**Rom.6: 14-15 **“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

Thus all of those in “limbo” waiting to be Redeemed, would have by virtue of there lifes, and there understanding of the Covenant conditions; having fulfilled them; would have accessed heaven immediately, upon the Opening of the Gates once again.

This theif who stoled heaven would have been included.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[rinnie]

**THANKS,

IMO “no”, here’s why:**

As I beleive you eariler stated heaven was not open until the Ressuration; the culmanation and beggining of THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST BLOOD. Agreed? This is FACT is the meaing of "redeemed."

Thus “the Theif who stole heaven”[Bishop Sheen… Life of Christ], would have still been judged on the conditions of the Old Covenant.

I am personaly unaware of any OT reference to Purgatory; this being because those covered in this Covennt "were under the Law;: where as we are “Covered under Grace.”

**Rom.6: 14-15 **“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

Thus all of those in “limbo” waiting to be Redeemed, would have by virtue of there lifes, and there understanding of the Covenant conditions; having fulfilled them; would have accessed heaven immediately, upon the Opening of the Gates once again.

This theif who stoled heaven would have been included.

God Bless,
Pat

You really gave me something to think about. So for this week, I am going to think about this

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Esdra

Luther didn’t remove anything, neither did he reject any book of the Bible. He just put the deuterocanonical Books in the “Appendix” and didn’t put it into the “appropriate places” (from the Catholic perspective). - Similar to St. Jerome in his Vulgate!
He didn’t remove anything but, in fact, even added the “Prayer of Manasseh”.
As far as I know the Lutherans use up to the present day the Holy Bible WITH THE APOCRYPHA (Luther’s Translation).

Ahhh…I do not believe that is accurate. Did he not call the Epistle of James and epistle of straws for a reason? It contradicted HIS doctrines.

The removing only started later. There are quite interesting threads here on CAF, concerning the removing of the “Apocrypha” from the KJV i.e… Have a look at them!

That is right,especially in the 19th century.

Luther studied the Church teaching’s and he reformed the Church as it has gone most certainly into apostasy, especially when you have a look at Luther’s time the 16th century.

Apostasy? Did not Luther ADD to scripture to suit his faith alone doctrine? Hhhm? What do you call that? Orthodoxy? Who gave him the authority to do it? Reform was needed,but Luther went a bit to far at times. The Reformation produced more of a major transformation of the church, which has splintered endlessly.

This topic is too hot for me. I can’t answer these questions. - And also won’t.

Why? Afraid it will rebuke your Protestant beliefs?

I simply believe that there is no purgatory, as the Baptist’s teach and dot.

No offense,but the Baptist church was founded centuries later by mere humans. And simply because you deny purgatory does not negate it.

 

[rinnie]

**THANKS,

IMO “no”, here’s why:**

As I beleive you eariler stated heaven was not open until the Ressuration; the culmanation and beggining of THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST BLOOD. Agreed? This is FACT is the meaing of "redeemed."

Thus “the Theif who stole heaven”[Bishop Sheen… Life of Christ], would have still been judged on the conditions of the Old Covenant.

I am personaly unaware of any OT reference to Purgatory; this being because those covered in this Covennt "were under the Law;: where as we are “Covered under Grace.”

**Rom.6: 14-15 **“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

Thus all of those in “limbo” waiting to be Redeemed, would have by virtue of there lifes, and there understanding of the Covenant conditions; having fulfilled them; would have accessed heaven immediately, upon the Opening of the Gates once again.

This theif who stoled heaven would have been included.

God Bless,
Pat

Yep, you are right, I talked to Father tonight and he said that the Good thief did indeed go to heaven, not purgatory.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hey Anna, hope you are doing well.

I think what we have to take from Fatima is that hell is an absolutely frightening state of being. The vision is given so that human minds might grasp the horrendous state of those who would live in the absence of God. Just as none of us can grasp the wonder and beauty of living in the presence of God in heaven, we cannot grasp a state of being in which God’s presence is completley absent. The spiritual reality is equal to, if not worse than, being eternally consumed by flames of fire.

Pope John Paul, II recognized this, but as Christians, we are to be people of hope, not despair. We have no reason to despair if we give our lives to our Lord and accept His incredible gift of life. While the pains of hell are reason enough to change our lives, the love of our Lord and the reward of heaven is even a better reason. His mercy is greater than His justice. He also emphasizes that it is not God who imposes this punishment on us. It is a consequence of our choosing to turn our backs on Him and a complete refusal of His saving love. Anyway, that’s what I get from both messages.

Steve,

I do understand that an eternity separated from God is unthinkable, just as it is unthinkable to literally burn for all eternity. I do live in the Hope of the Resurrection and the Hope of Salvation through Christ our Lord. However, the idea of loved ones or anyone spending an eternity in absolute torment does cause me despair. When I think of my son, who has fallen into agnosticism, it is unbearable.

There have been times when I wished I had never been born, because the idea of such a place as Hell is so overwhelming. One can spend only a few years in this life and spend an eternity in torment. I cannot understand such a thing. If we get it wrong in this lifetime, a mere moment-a blink of an eye; we are doomed to unimaginable horrors for all eternity. There are still times when I am scared to death–for my loved ones, and at times, even for myself.

The Early Church Fathers and Pope John Paul II do not seem to be in agreement with the definition of “hell.”

Justin Martyr (151AD)
We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire (“First Apology” 21).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (“First Apology” 52).

From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)

From “Second Clement” (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire (“Against Heresies” 1:10:1)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Tertullian (197AD)
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13).*

By the time we reach Pope John Paul II, “Hell” seems to have an entirely different definition.

Continued–Next Post

 

[Anna_Scott]

Continued to SteveVH

Steve,

This is a quote from Heaven and Hell, What does the Bible Really Teach?
Link: ucg.org/booklets/HL/punish-people-forever-hell.asp. I’m not a member of this Church, and I don’t agree with all their beliefs. However this article on Hell does emphasis the way Hell has been used in Christian history. There is plenty of despair in this history.

"An angry God

One of the most graphic descriptions of the torments of hell as conceived by men was given by the Puritan minister Jonathan Edwards in a 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

He said: "The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrows made ready…[by] an angry God…It is nothing but His mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction! The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire; He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire…

"You are ten thousand times more abominable in His eyes than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended Him…and yet it is nothing but His hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment…

“O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of God…You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder.”

This human concept of hell was so terrible that the prospect of such a fate caused great anguish, fear and anxiety for many Puritans. “The heavy emphasis on hell and damnation combined with an excessive self-scrutiny led many into clinical depression: suicide seems to have been prevalent” (Karen Armstrong, A History of God, 1993, p. 284).

The Puritans were not the only ones tormented by fear of hell. Many people have been terrorized by the thought of hell ever since this non-biblical concept crept into religious teaching. Other ministers and teachers have, like Jonathan Edwards, used a similar approach to frighten people into belief and obedience.

One of the reasons this concept of hell survived is because theologians believed the teaching deterred people from evil. “It was thought that, if the fear of eternal punishment were removed, most people would behave without any moral restraint whatever and that society would collapse into an anarchical orgy” (Walker, p. 4)."

The beliefs regarding the fate of the lost in the afterlife seems to change with time and is different among Christians. Some say Hell is eternal separation from God, some say Hell is an eternal-literal burning, some say Hell is eternal death/destruction/annihilation. I hope it is the latter.

Your thoughts?

Anna

 

[meltzerboy]

Peace and blessings,
I will digress a little from your question but not to derail your thread.
Catholic practice as i understand from what i witness is hell is very real but is not the emphasis of the church today. I see this as largely due to its teachings on invincible ignorance. Also because the oldies i listen to did not like being preached to about the negative aspects of life but today emphasis God love.
I see it as swinging too far to the opposite extream.

For me the fear of Gods wrath is very real and a valued motivator to desire His love by being of His love.

I often remark to the oldies that while they did not like the way it used to be they are solid in their devotion where as people my age who were given the love only emphasis dont bother as much with devotion.
I ask them to consider some of the old ways are good as they show our actions have serious consequences and half the teaching is inadequate to enlighten the full understanding of truth.

Todays reading(24th) from eclisasticies (sorry cant spell) explains the balance of wrath and mercy very well and is very relevant to your thread.

To move back to your question i fellowship with an AOG community, hell is often a focus of there teaching but not a big sunday topic as they focus sundays on worship and thanks with positive guidance.

Of your thread a little Islamic religion communities i know have great emphasis on heaven and hell and noticeably these people have strength in devotions. (not to start are muslims right or wrong but it illustrates what teaching understanding of consequences good and bad does to inspire devotion in humans)

I dont think humans like to think of hell as none of us are perfect and are working on submission to real love (verb) to maintain living in hope.

Its a good thread you have started.

May God bless you and yours to be living light of His love

On the other hand, Judaism has no notion of Hell although there is a Purgatory where souls are cleansed but some are eventually separated from G-d instead of entering Heaven. However, there is no eternal damnation in the form of punishment. Still, many Jews are devoted to their faith.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .Judaism has no notion of Hell although there is a Purgatory where souls are cleansed but some are eventually separated from G-d instead of entering Heaven. . .

meltzerboy,

I found this Jewish viewpoint about Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”):

Link: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm
**What Happens After We Die?, By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber

"What is Heaven and Hell?**
**Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. **Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the “Thirteen Principles” of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different “heaven” and “hell” than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.

After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.

This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense–in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality–a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8–depending on how we played the music of our lives.

**When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a “judgment and accounting” of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the “accounting” part; the “judgment” part–that only the soul itself can do.**10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself–only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul’s experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”–i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”).

The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom–the soul’s pain in facing the truth of its life–cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and “bask in the Divine radiance” emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.

For a G-dly soul spawns far more good in its lifetime than evil. The core of the soul is unadulterated goodness; the good we accomplish is infinite, the evil but shallow and superficial. So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven. Furthermore, a soul’s experience of gehinom can be mitigated by the action of his or her children and loved ones, here on earth. Reciting Kaddish and engaging in other good deeds “in merit of” and “for the elevation of” the departed soul means that the soul, in effect, is continuing to act positively upon the physical world, thereby adding to the goodness of its physical lifetime.11

The soul, on its part, remains involved in the lives of those it leaves behind when it departs physical life. The soul of a parent continues to watch over the lives of his/her children and grandchildren, to derive pride (or pain) from their deeds and accomplishments, and to intercede on their behalf before the Heavenly Throne; the same applies to those to whom a soul was connected with bonds of love, friendship and community. In fact, because the soul is no longer constricted by the limitations of the physical state, its relationship with its loved ones is, in many ways, even deeper and more meaningful than before.

However, while the departed soul is aware and cognizant of all that transpires in the lives of its loved ones, the souls remaining in the physical word are limited to what they can perceive via the five senses as facilitated by their physical bodies. We can impact the soul of a departed loved one through our positive actions, but we cannot communicate with it through conventional means (speech, sight, physical contact, etc.) that, prior to its passing, defined the way that we related to each other. (Indeed, the Torah expressly forbids the idolatrous practices of necromancy, mediumism and similar attempts to “make contact” with the world of the dead.) Hence the occurrence of death, while signifying an elevation for the soul of the departed, is experienced as a tragic loss for those it leaves behind."

Is this view widely held by those of the Jewish faith? I would really appreciate your comments.

As a Christian, I’m still trying to understand the Catholic concept of Purgatory. I haven’t found O.T. writings to support eternal torment.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

When I first read the Old Testament all the way through, I realized I had not read anything that threatened eternal torment of the lost? Genesis reveals the punishment of Adam and Eve’s disobedience as “death.”

Genesis Chapter 2:17: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis Chapter 3:19: By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Consider Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis Chapter 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.

Jude Chapter 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burned, until all was consumed. If they are to serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire; then “Eternal fire” must not be synonymous with “eternal torment.” The fires are not still burning today, nor will they be burning for all eternity.

Malachi Chapter 4:
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi paints a very clear picture of destruction by fire, the annihilation of the wicked, who will be “stubble,” and who will be “ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is death/eternal destruction/annihilation.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We all die a physical death. If the “soul who sins shall die”; this must be death of the soul.

Psalm Chapter 37: 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.

Psalms tell us, “the wicked will perish” and “vanish like smoke.”

Ecclesiastes Chapter 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Footnotes: (c) Ecclesiastes 9:10 Hebrew Sheol

Ecclesiastes 12:7: and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 88:
A song. A psalm of the Sons of Korah. For the director of music. According to mahalath leannoth. A maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.

1 O LORD, the God who saves me,
day and night I cry out before you.

2 May my prayer come before you;
turn your ear to my cry.

3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.

4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.

5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.

6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
in the darkest depths.

7 Your wrath lies heavily upon me;
you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.
Selah

Comments on these passages?

The O.T. reads like the fate of the lost is annihilation. Did this change when Christ came? I really don’t understand.

 

[PJM]

Anna Scott;7654042]Steve,

I do understand that an eternity separated from God is unthinkable, just as it is unthinkable to literally burn for all eternity. I do live in the Hope of the Resurrection and the Hope of Salvation through Christ our Lord. However, the idea of loved ones or anyone spending an eternity in absolute torment does cause me despair. When I think of my son, who has fallen into agnosticism, it is unbearable.

There have been times when I wished I had never been born, because the idea of such a place as Hell is so overwhelming. One can spend only a few years in this life and spend an eternity in torment. I cannot understand such a thing. If we get it wrong in this lifetime, a mere moment-a blink of an eye; we are doomed to unimaginable horrors for all eternity. There are still times when I am scared to death–for my loved ones, and at times, even for myself.

The Early Church Fathers and Pope John Paul II do not seem to be in agreement with the definition of “hell.”

Justin Martyr (151AD)
We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire (“First Apology” 21).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (“First Apology” 52).

From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)

From “Second Clement” (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire (“Against Heresies” 1:10:1)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Tertullian (197AD)
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13).*

By the time we reach Pope John Paul II, “Hell” seems to have an entirely different definition.

Continued–Next Post

A reassonable fear of the After-Life reality, is spiritually beneficial.

SADLY many of the GOOD Catholic families I know [me too] have kids not practicing there faith. While it has to b a cause for serious concern; we MUST NOT permit it to lead us into dispair, or doubt God’s Power to convert them.

Faith has always been a gift from God. MANY Saints took the LOND road to salvation. Pray, sacrifice, Love, and TRUST in God’s Mercy!

God Bless you and yours,
Pat

 

[avemaria297]

No one wants to believe in Hell. Everyone wants to believe in a perfect, cheery God who loves every criminal and unbaptized child and abortionist and all the sinful people, even the dogs and cats and lizards. I believe this emotional tendency in people to feel guilt and sorrow for others is what leads to the doctrine of universalism, when in reality most deeply religious people will deny that. Christianity is not simply, I repeat NOT, just church and forgiving, lovely Jesus and Heaven and bibles and volunteering and Christmas and praying and all that.

I have read the entire New Testament, and found many passages where God has acted unethically, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in shocking ways. For example, he has sent people to Hell for something they are truly repentant for, smashed babies on rocks, and ruined the enviorment and killed many in Noah’s Ark, but that is the OT.

Just look up Psalm 137.

 

[SteveVH]

Continued to SteveVH

Steve,

This is a quote from Heaven and Hell, What does the Bible Really Teach?
Link: ucg.org/booklets/HL/punish-people-forever-hell.asp. I’m not a member of this Church, and I don’t agree with all their beliefs. However this article on Hell does emphasis the way Hell has been used in Christian history. There is plenty of despair in this history.

"An angry God

One of the most graphic descriptions of the torments of hell as conceived by men was given by the Puritan minister Jonathan Edwards in a 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

He said: "The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrows made ready…[by] an angry God…It is nothing but His mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction! The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire; He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire…

"You are ten thousand times more abominable in His eyes than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended Him…and yet it is nothing but His hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment…

“O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of God…You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder.”

This human concept of hell was so terrible that the prospect of such a fate caused great anguish, fear and anxiety for many Puritans. “The heavy emphasis on hell and damnation combined with an excessive self-scrutiny led many into clinical depression: suicide seems to have been prevalent” (Karen Armstrong, A History of God, 1993, p. 284).

The Puritans were not the only ones tormented by fear of hell. Many people have been terrorized by the thought of hell ever since this non-biblical concept crept into religious teaching. Other ministers and teachers have, like Jonathan Edwards, used a similar approach to frighten people into belief and obedience.

One of the reasons this concept of hell survived is because theologians believed the teaching deterred people from evil. “It was thought that, if the fear of eternal punishment were removed, most people would behave without any moral restraint whatever and that society would collapse into an anarchical orgy” (Walker, p. 4)."

The beliefs regarding the fate of the lost in the afterlife seems to change with time and is different among Christians. Some say Hell is eternal separation from God, some say Hell is an eternal-literal burning, some say Hell is eternal death/destruction/annihilation. I hope it is the latter.

Your thoughts?

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

No one wants to believe in Hell. Everyone wants to believe in a perfect, cheery God who loves every criminal and unbaptized child and abortionist and all the sinful people, even the dogs and cats and lizards. I believe this emotional tendency in people to feel guilt and sorrow for others is what leads to the doctrine of universalism, when in reality most deeply religious people will deny that. Christianity is not simply, I repeat NOT, just church and forgiving, lovely Jesus and Heaven and bibles and volunteering and Christmas and praying and all that.

I have read the entire New Testament, and found many passages where God has acted unethically, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in shocking ways. For example, he has sent people to Hell for something they are truly repentant for, smashed babies on rocks, and ruined the enviorment and killed many in Noah’s Ark, but that is the OT.

Just look up Psalm 137.

Maybe you should attend a good Bible study. Your interpretations here are out in left field. God doesn’t send anyone to hell, they choose a life without Him and that is exactly what they get - for eternity. In any regard, you are in no position to judge God.

 

[Anna_Scott]

yes

 

[GaryTaylor]

Catholic teaching hasn’t over the years. What has changed is the imagery. Depending of who you read on, will depend on the graphics of their detail.

Nonetheless “sin” is still very much real today, as is hell.

We have traveled far down this path of the modern world. Yet while theologians may vary on the graphics of definitition. All the Mystics are in agreement with the theologians. In Benedicts encyclical he tried to demonstrate that “it is precisely the last judgment of God that guarantees justice.”

God Bless, Gary

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2

When I first read the Old Testament all the way through, I realized I had not read anything that threatened eternal torment of the lost? Genesis reveals the punishment of Adam and Eve’s disobedience as “death.”

Genesis Chapter 2:17: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis Chapter 3:19: By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Consider Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis Chapter 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.

Jude Chapter 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burned, until all was consumed. If they are to serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire; then “Eternal fire” must not be synonymous with “eternal torment.” The fires are not still burning today, nor will they be burning for all eternity.

Malachi Chapter 4:
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi paints a very clear picture of destruction by fire, the annihilation of the wicked, who will be “stubble,” and who will be “ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is death/eternal destruction/annihilation.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We all die a physical death. If the “soul who sins shall die”; this must be death of the soul.

Psalm Chapter 37: 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.

Psalms tell us, “the wicked will perish” and “vanish like smoke.”

Ecclesiastes Chapter 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Footnotes: (c) Ecclesiastes 9:10 Hebrew Sheol

Ecclesiastes 12:7: and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 88:
A song. A psalm of the Sons of Korah. For the director of music. According to mahalath leannoth. A maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.

1 O LORD, the God who saves me,
day and night I cry out before you.

2 May my prayer come before you;
turn your ear to my cry.

3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.

4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.

5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.

6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
in the darkest depths.

7 Your wrath lies heavily upon me;
you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.
Selah

The O.T. reads like the fate of the lost is annihilation. Did this change when Christ came? I really don’t understand, and could use some help. I’ve read different views on Hell and there seems to be wide disagreement among Christians regarding what Hell really is.

Continued-Part 2 Next Post