The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[Anna_Scott]

Continued-Part 2 of 2

If Christ conquered death, why is “eternal death” not the definition of Hell? I’ve read the CCC, Pope John Paul II, and other resources. It still doesn’t make sense to me. Would someone comment?

2 Peter 2: **
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep**.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

**Matthew 4: **
13And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people dwelling in darkness
have seen a great light,
and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death,
on them a light has dawned.”

John 5:
21For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25**"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live**. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28**Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good** to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 8:
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Acts 2:
22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

"'I saw the Lord always before me,

for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Romans 5:
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Anna,
Your question about the OT having some ideas of eternal death is a good one.

It appears that they didn’t know much about what they called the underworld.
People went there when they died. David’s psalms mentions it. Noone could enter heaven yet since the redemption by Christ had not yet happened so obviously they had to exist somewhere. But were the really evil dead people sent somewhere else at this time? The Holy Bible says some harsh things about them. But then maybe they were waiting for the Redemptive act before they would be sent. The OT never tires of saying “the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”.

God did suspend monogamy for them. It makes me wonder if He also wasn’t a little more lenient on them in other ways as well that isn’t written down. After all, this was a time before His Beloved Son came down to serve us (bless HIm), and all the riches of His Church were unavailable to them.

Your question about Pope John Paul II in ref. to eternal death.

It seems he was saying we lack details about the punishment. Fire may be expressing pain in a way that is different from what we know, but non the less, pain. The worse suffering being the loss of Jesus for whom everyone is made for and is fulfilled only in Him.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Yep… we teach Hell.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yep… we teach Hell.

Hi Anna,
Your question about the OT having some ideas of eternal death is a good one.

It appears that they didn’t know much about what they called the underworld.
People went there when they died. David’s psalms mentions it. Noone could enter heaven yet since the redemption by Christ had not yet happened so obviously they had to exist somewhere. But were the really evil dead people sent somewhere else at this time? The Holy Bible says some harsh things about them. But then maybe they were waiting for the Redemptive act before they would be sent. The OT never tires of saying “the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”.

God did suspend monogamy for them. It makes me wonder if He also wasn’t a little more lenient on them in other ways as well that isn’t written down. After all, this was a time before His Beloved Son came down to serve us (bless HIm), and all the riches of His Church were unavailable to them.

Your question about Pope John Paul II in ref. to eternal death.

It seems he was saying we lack details about the punishment. Fire may be expressing pain in a way that is different from what we know, but non the less, pain. The worse suffering being the loss of Jesus for whom everyone is made for and is fulfilled only in Him.

ForeverGrace and fred conty,

I appreciate your comments. I understand Pope John Paul was not teaching a literal burning in fire, but separation from God through our own choices.

Still no one has addressed the many passages that speak as if the fate of the lost is death/annihilation. I really didn’t finish the list of N.T. Scriptures.

Of course the most famous passage is is found in

John Chapter 3:
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Does “perish” not mean death? Eternal separation from God is still eternal life. So, that doesn’t make sense. John 3:15 does not say whoever believes in Christ will not suffer eternal torment; but will have eternal life."

If Christ conquered death, where does eternal torment fit in the work Christ accomplished on the cross?

Anna

 

[rinnie]

ForeverGrace and fred conty,

I appreciate your comments. I understand Pope John Paul was not teaching a literal burning in fire, but separation from God through our own choices.

Still no one has addressed the many passages that speak as if the fate of the lost is death/annihilation. I really didn’t finish the list of N.T. Scriptures.

Of course the most famous passage is is found in

John Chapter 3:
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Does “perish” not mean death? Eternal separation from God is still eternal life. So, that doesn’t make sense. John 3:15 does not say whoever believes in Christ will not suffer eternal torment; but will have eternal life."

If Christ conquered death, where does eternal torment fit in the work Christ accomplished on the cross?

Anna

Well that is quite simple Anna. Death of the soul means you have turned from Christ and choose sin over him. Which is another way of say you choose death over life.

Now if you believe in Christ what did Jesus say. If you believe in me you will do my work, you will obey my commandments.

Now if you turn to sin and put yourself and sin above God are you a true believer. I don’t think so. ANd if you are a true believer you know that you are in a state of mortal sin, and will make your way back to God and obey his commands.

What you are trying to make scripture say is Believe in me, but sin all you like. Belief is all you need. Another way of saying you can have faith without works. But the bible says no. What good is faith w/o works. It called fruitless.

You need to go back and read about faith w/o works. THen you will see what you are looking for. ANd what is a tree that bears no fruit? Fruitless DEAD!!

Do you not think that the devil believes in Christ? Because he is one of the strongest believers. but he also hates Christ. And that is why he lives to hurt Christ. And his only way to get to CHrist is to get to those Christ loves.

Because God gave us free will the devil can move in and tempt us to choose him over Christ which is another way of saying sin over him or death over live.

The devil is full of darkness which mean no light, when you are away from the light who are you away from. Christ Correct!! THere you have it!!

 

[rinnie]

By the way Anna Christ died for our sins once and for all.

What that means is he made it possible by dying on the cross that once time to pay for any sin we can ever commit.

So by the Sacraments he made it possible to be forgiven for any sin we have. When we go to the Priest and confess that sin, We are forgiven. There is no sin to over power the Grace and Love of GOd.

In the O.T there was not Confession, there were not Priests given that authority by Christ. But now there is.

What you bind is bound in heaven,what you forgive is forgiven. The Priests have that authority to forgive sin in the Name of Christ. If they say that you are forgiven in the name of Christ they have that right to say that, and it is forgiven.

But Christ never said we did not have to confess our sin, Christ did not say we did not have to quit our sin, Christ did not say we did not have to follow his commands.

Yes we must believe to have eternal life, but you need to find out the true definition of belief is. ANd you will find if you believe in me, you will do my work. Sin is not the work of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Anna by the way,

Eternal separation from God is not life, is is death. death of the soul. I do not know where you see that eternal separtion from Christ is life?? Could you show me that.

Sin is death of the soul. Life is to be free from sin.

 

[Anna_Scott]

ForeverGrace and fred conty,

I appreciate your comments. I understand Pope John Paul was not teaching a literal burning in fire, but separation from God through our own choices.

Still no one has addressed the many passages that speak as if the fate of the lost is death/annihilation.. . . .

By the way Anna Christ died for our sins once and for all.

What that means is he made it possible by dying on the cross that once time to pay for any sin we can ever commit.

I understand that Christ paid the price for our sins.

My questions lies in what specifically is the price for sin. Is it death as in an eternal torment apart from God, or is it death of both body and soul–meaning annihilation?

So by the Sacraments he made it possible to be forgiven for any sin we have. When we go to the Priest and confess that sin, We are forgiven. There is no sin to over power the Grace and Love of GOd.

In the O.T there was not Confession, there were not Priests given that authority by Christ. But now there is.

I agree-with the exception of blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

What you bind is bound in heaven,what you forgive is forgiven. The Priests have that authority to forgive sin in the Name of Christ. If they say that you are forgiven in the name of Christ they have that right to say that, and it is forgiven.

I agree.

But Christ never said we did not have to confess our sin, Christ did not say we did not have to quit our sin, Christ did not say we did not have to follow his commands.

I agree, though this is not the topic of my questions.

Yes we must believe to have eternal life, but you need to find out the true definition of belief is. ANd you will find if you believe in me, you will do my work. Sin is not the work of Christ.

I understand belief, and faith, and the fact that faith without works is dead. I’m not a “faith alone” proponent.

Anna by the way,

Eternal separation from God is not life, is is death. death of the soul. I do not know where you see that eternal separtion from Christ is life?? Could you show me that.

Sin is death of the soul. Life is to be free from sin.

We’re getting into a semantics issue. My point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Matthew 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

My point is that destruction of both body and soul implies annihilation. So, how does a soul that has been destroyed, suffer eternally? And if the price for our sins is to suffer eternally apart from God, how did Christ pay this price for sin? The Scriptures say Christ conquered death. The Scriptures do not say that Christ conquered eternal torment of the soul–unless I’m missing something. I’m open to correction.

The word “Hell” is used in Bible translations for the Hebrew Sheol, and the Greek Gehenna, Tartarō, and Hades–which further complicates the definition of Hell. Tartarō, and Hades both come from Greek mythology, which brings even more confusion to the Christian definition of Hell.

Again, my point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Anna

---

Edited to add:*** **Article from THE SUNDAY TIMES about a speech by Pope Benedict XVI entitled, “The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns”
**
"Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno”. Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said. . . . . ."

Then, Vatican officials decided to clarify/correct the words of the Pope, as stated in the same article:

“. . . . .Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”. . . .”

 

[lisaberry100]

I don’t know if I am allowed to name names of so-called “theologians” that “reject” hell. Rob Bell is one. He is a protestant on the fringe of the Universal Church. My daughter goes to a protestant school (we don’t have a Catholic High school here) Her friend actually said, “Rob Bell is just like those Catholics”. My daughter jumped on the chance to clear up the Catholic misconception of the week. She gently told him, "Rob Bell’s church is just another Protestant denomination. He couldn’t be FURTHER from the Catholic church and what it teaches. Of course, her friend just ignored her as all her friends do. They don’t really want to know the truth, but want to believe the Catholic misconceptions. I hope this post isn’t too confrontational or divisive, but I am just so tired of the blatant disregard for the truth about what Catholics believe.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .**Article from THE SUNDAY TIMES about a speech by Pope Benedict XVI entitled, “The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns”
**
"Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno”. Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said. . . . . ."

Then, Vatican officials decided to clarify/correct the words of the Pope, as stated in the same article:

“. . . . .Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”. . . .”

Link to THE SUNDAY TIMES article: timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1572646.ece

 

[Anna_Scott]

I don’t know if I am allowed to name names of so-called “theologians” that “reject” hell. Rob Bell is one. He is a protestant on the fringe of the Universal Church. My daughter goes to a protestant school (we don’t have a Catholic High school here) Her friend actually said, “Rob Bell is just like those Catholics”. My daughter jumped on the chance to clear up the Catholic misconception of the week. She gently told him, "Rob Bell’s church is just another Protestant denomination. He couldn’t be FURTHER from the Catholic church and what it teaches. Of course, her friend just ignored her as all her friends do. They don’t really want to know the truth, but want to believe the Catholic misconceptions. I hope this post isn’t too confrontational or divisive, but I am just so tired of the blatant disregard for the truth about what Catholics believe.

lisaberry100,

Welcome to CAF. These are great forums.

Is your post a response to me?

Anna

 

[rinnie]

I understand that Christ paid the price for our sins.

My questions lies in what specifically is the price for sin. Is it death as in an eternal torment apart from God, or is it death of both body and soul–meaning annihilation?

I agree-with the exception of blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

I agree.

I agree, though this is not the topic of my questions.

I understand belief, and faith, and the fact that faith without works is dead. I’m not a “faith alone” proponent.

We’re getting into a semantics issue. My point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Matthew 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

My point is that destruction of both body and soul implies annihilation. So, how does a soul that has been destroyed, suffer eternally? And if the price for our sins is to suffer eternally apart from God, how did Christ pay this price for sin? The Scriptures say Christ conquered death. The Scriptures do not say that Christ conquered eternal torment of the soul–unless I’m missing something. I’m open to correction.

The word “Hell” is used in Bible translations for the Hebrew Sheol, and the Greek Gehenna, Tartarō, and Hades–which further complicates the definition of Hell. Tartarō, and Hades both come from Greek mythology, which brings even more confusion to the Christian definition of Hell.

Again, my point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Anna

---

Edited to add:*** **Article from THE SUNDAY TIMES about a speech by Pope Benedict XVI entitled, “The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns”
**
"Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno”. Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said. . . . . ."

Then, Vatican officials decided to clarify/correct the words of the Pope, as stated in the same article:

“. . . . .Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”. . . .”

Anna what it means is you will never have any Grace given to you from God. It is by the grace of God that we can have any goodness given to us. Nothing good that we do can be done w/o the grace of God. IT is not that Christ could not or did not conquer eternal damnation of the soul, it is that we made that choice to have that eternal damnation. God still gave us free will, and if we have chosen by our free will be separate ourself from him by our sin, that was our choice.

If we are separated from him in hell that means that his grace will never be given to us. So to live w/o his grace is like death to the soul. Hope that helps.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I understand that Christ paid the price for our sins.

My questions lies in what specifically is the price for sin. Is it death as in an eternal torment apart from God, or is it death of both body and soul–meaning annihilation?

I agree-with the exception of blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

I agree.

I agree, though this is not the topic of my questions.

I understand belief, and faith, and the fact that faith without works is dead. I’m not a “faith alone” proponent.

We’re getting into a semantics issue. My point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Matthew 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

My point is that destruction of both body and soul implies annihilation. So, how does a soul that has been destroyed, suffer eternally? And if the price for our sins is to suffer eternally apart from God, how did Christ pay this price for sin? The Scriptures say Christ conquered death. The Scriptures do not say that Christ conquered eternal torment of the soul–unless I’m missing something. I’m open to correction.

The word “Hell” is used in Bible translations for the Hebrew Sheol, and the Greek Gehenna, Tartarō, and Hades–which further complicates the definition of Hell. Tartarō, and Hades both come from Greek mythology, which brings even more confusion to the Christian definition of Hell.

Again, my point is that even “eternal torment” is still an eternal existence. I understand this could be interpreted as a “spiritual” death. However, one would still exist for all eternity, which would not mean destruction of both body and soul.

Anna

---

Edited to add:*** **Article from THE SUNDAY TIMES about a speech by Pope Benedict XVI entitled, “The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns”
**
"Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno”. Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said. . . . . ."

Then, Vatican officials decided to clarify/correct the words of the Pope, as stated in the same article:

“. . . . .Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”. . . .”

Anna what it means is you will never have any Grace given to you from God. It is by the grace of God that we can have any goodness given to us. Nothing good that we do can be done w/o the grace of God. IT is not that Christ could not or did not conquer eternal damnation of the soul, it is that we made that choice to have that eternal damnation. God still gave us free will, and if we have chosen by our free will be separate ourself from him by our sin, that was our choice.

If we are separated from him in hell that means that his grace will never be given to us. So to live w/o his grace is like death to the soul. Hope that helps.

Rinnie,
Are you saying that the “death” that Christ conquered is different from eternal damnation of the soul-different from destruction of body and soul in Hell–different from the consequences of rejecting His Grace?

Anna

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
Are you saying that the “death” that Christ conquered is different from eternal damnation of the soul-different from destruction of body and soul in Hell–different from the consequences of rejecting His Grace?

Anna

Anna, When Jesus died on the cross he took away death by opening up heaven and giving us everlasting life in Heaven with his Father.

What does that have to do with eternal death of the soul which means saying you do not want eternal life with Christ in heaven and refuse to accept him by the means of your own free will.

What I was saying is once you reject Christ and choose sin over Christ you choose hell. Once you choose hell you have removed yourself from Christ and his Grace so you will live in eternal death which is sin. It begins here on earth by the way you live your life.

WHen you choose Hell which is death over life in Christ it is over. You have met Christ face to face and are judged for your sins and reject his love. THere is no turning back. If you reject Christ you did it to yourself. It is not a question of the power of God’s Grace, it becomes a question of our own free will and what we choose for ourself. God gave us that right to live our life with him and in him, or to separate ourself from him.

Anna it is that way as we speak. You either choose him or reject him.`But as long as we are here we still have the chance to turn away from our sin and choose God. We have the oportunity right now to go to Church confess our sins and turn back to him.

It is not a matter of the Grace of Christ being stronger then sin any longer. It is a matter of free will and turning away from that Grace. As I said earlier there is no sin he did not pay for, but as you said against the Holy Spirit. He did it all. But if you reject him and continue to reject him, it is not a question of his Grace any longer, its your free will.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
Are you saying that the “death” that Christ conquered is different from eternal damnation of the soul-different from destruction of body and soul in Hell–different from the consequences of rejecting His Grace?

Anna

Anna If you are asking me if when Christ conquered death on the cross, did he take away hell, the question is No.

Hell is where you will go if you refuse to quit your sin and put the love for oneself and the love for your sin above Christ.

When you die you must die to oneself and live for the love of Christ.

When Jesus died on the cross he went down and released the souls that were worthy of heaven. There is no longer a holding place as they say for the souls, as were in the O.T.

Jesus opened up heaven, its done, its completed. The only difference from now and the end of time is there will just be heaven and hell. No earth as we know it.

If we are chosen we will live in our own body and soul it will be put back into the body and we will walk this earth again, the way it should have been at the time of Adam and Eve.

There will be no sin, so no death, work will not be hard, it will be the new heaven and the new earth as the bible tells us. But we will live with God and see him face to face.

Think about it Anna, that is what Adam and Eve did, the devil tempted them to be Christ istead of obey him.

We will live the way it was supposed to be before the great fall. It will be the way God wanted it to be, but this time we will have no sin, because to be in paradise we will have already passed the test of Adam and Eve, but instead of choosing the devil (death) we choose Life (Christ). It will be a wonderful beautiful life that will be ahead for us is we choose Christ.

One more thought, be right back!

 

[rinnie]

People have said this is hell, I have said it cannot be.

Yes it can be a taste of what hell can be like but it can be a taste of what heaven can be like also.

This cannot be hell because there is the Grace of God here, hope and faith knowing no matter what God can change things at the blind of a eye.

BUt it can be a taste of hell also, because could you imagine no matter what it will never be easy, and no end to the hardship.

But when you have faith and God in your life there is no hopeless. There is always no matter what he will come in and take over when he feels it is time.

But there is good and bad in all of us. But there is good bad also. Like a friend gets something and you are jealous, you can’t help it. But you say I am so happy for you, sure you wish it were you, but you know your time is comming also, and although its hard to see someone else get more then you, your love for them and God overpowers that love for yourself, and you really are more happy for them then you would be for yourself. That is good bad. You took a real human emotion that is bad, and made it into a good.

We all have evil in us. What is evil, I was told once to spell it backwards. Evil is to LIVE. But how we live is how we accept evil or reject it. But in the next world it will not be a strong emotion to fight everyday. It will cease to exist. That will be heaven.

But if you choose hell it will be strong and you will life for it. As sick as this sounds you would even get joy out of others hurts and bads. ANd then that short joy will bring you even more unhappiness. But hell is to not love anyone in this world but yourself. And when you put yourself above everyone even God you will never be happy you will be alone. and miserable and never have anyone to share anything with.

Think about it what would be worse then to have THINGS and no one to share them with and to have fun with. And to know you are not loved you are hated by all. That is hell.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, When Jesus died on the cross he took away death by opening up heaven and giving us everlasting life in Heaven with his Father.

What does that have to do with eternal death of the soul which means saying you do not want eternal life with Christ in heaven and refuse to accept him by the means of your own free will. . . . . .

Rinnie,
I read your posts and will get back to you. I’ve got some things I have to do today. I appreciate the time you put into your posts.

Peace,
Anna

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I read your posts and will get back to you. I’ve got some things I have to do today. I appreciate the time you put into your posts.

Peace,
Anna

Take all the time you need Anna, no rush

 

[Anna_Scott]

Are you saying that the “death” that Christ conquered is different from eternal damnation of the soul-different from destruction of body and soul in Hell–different from the consequences of rejecting His Grace?

Rinnie,
I’m trying to sort through your posts to pull out the answer to my question as quoted above.

(Red emphasis in your quotes is mine.)

Anna, When Jesus died on the cross he took away death by opening up heaven and giving us everlasting life in Heaven with his Father.

I understand the fact that Christ conquered death and made eternal life possible.

What I was saying is once you reject Christ and choose sin over Christ you choose hell. Once you choose hell you have removed yourself from Christ and his Grace so you will live in eternal death which is sin. It begins here on earth by the way you live your life.

You’re saying “eternal death is sin.” How does that fit with Holy Scripture?

Matthew 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The destruction of the soul is mentioned in the O.T., as well.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Saying eternal death is sin does not seem to be the same as saying “the soul who sins shall die” or “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Romans 5:
19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin reigned in death through the disobedience of Adam. Grace reigns in righteousness leading to eternal life through Christ.

As I said earlier there is no sin he did not pay for, but as you said against the Holy Spirit. He did it all. But if you reject him and continue to reject him, it is not a question of his Grace any longer, its your free will.

If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Anna If you are asking me if when Christ conquered death on the cross, did he take away hell, the question is No.

That is not what I’m asking. I know Hell exists. I’m just not certain what Hell is; and there is no agreement within all Christendom on the definition. Actually, there is a great deal of disagreement. Even those who hold to Tradition, such as the Eastern Orthodox, have a completely different definition of Hell than Catholics in Communion with Rome.

But if you choose hell it will be strong and you will life for it. As sick as this sounds you would even get joy out of others hurts and bads. ANd then that short joy will bring you even more unhappiness. But hell is to not love anyone in this world but yourself. And when you put yourself above everyone even God you will never be happy you will be alone. and miserable and never have anyone to share anything with.

Would you provide some sources for this definition of Hell?

Think about it what would be worse then to have THINGS and no one to share them with and to have fun with. And to know you are not loved you are hated by all. That is hell.

Again, I need some sources. How is this compatible with Holy Scripture?

The other issue is that the definition of Hell has changed over the course of history.

I’ve discussed this with Catholics here on CAF who do not agree with Pope John Paul II and insist Hell is a real tortuous burning for eternity. Many ECF’s wrote the same. As I noted in a previous post, Vatican officials actually corrected or clarified the words of Pope Benedict XVI , who said that Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire.

So, the definition of Hell doesn’t appear so firm even within Catholicism.

**Article from THE SUNDAY TIMES about a speech by Pope Benedict XVI entitled, “The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns”
**
"Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno”. Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said. . . . . ."

Then, Vatican officials decided to clarify/correct the words of the Pope, as stated in the same article:

“. . . . .Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”. . . .”

 

[rinnie]

Hi Anna, Okay to begin with you know how in the scripture Jesus speaks of Gehenna. What that means is simply eternal punishment. Forever, no out. Everlasting.

Now the Chief Punishment of hell is Eternal Separation from God who alone can possess the life and happiness we Need.

Okay so lets start there, We will never be happy.

Even in this world no matter how dark or unhappy we are there is always Hope that things can and will Change. Because there is always the day that God can come and change everything.

So think of living today with no Hope whatsoever.

Now you have heard of a eternal passion burning in someones Soul for something or someone. Okay that is wanting something so bad that you would do anything to get it.

Now eternal fire is that burning passion that you know you will never get oever.

In this world God can help you to overcome anything. Or he can help you to get what you need if you really need it.

But Hell in scripture it talks of a deep darkness where there is weeping and gash thru teeth. It is like living in a hopeless world of missery where you know God will never come to rescue you. But you did this to yourself.

As hard as this is to imagine you would rather live in a world of sorrow and evil and darkness and misery then to accept Christ and his goodness. Hard to imagine I know.

But there are people who are so evil that they love being evil so much that would rather live like that then to give it up. God gave them every chance and they choose this evil life.

Now death of the soul is sin, we know that because when we are in mortal sin we have separated ourself from God. Now when you are in mortal sin you seem to get in deeper and deeper because the deeper you get, the further you are from God.

But mortal sin while we are living can be forgiven by Confession. That is why while we are living it is not Eternal Sin or Eternal death. Mortal sin while we are living is tempory separation from God. But when we die if we die in mortal sin we choose that sin over God.

Now I think this is going to answer what you are trying to figure out.

Mortal sin death of the Soul is forgiven by the death of Christ on the Cross only because as long as we are alive he gave us Confession to make that possible. You could say confession is our one way to enter hell on earth by commiting mortal sin, but confession is our get our of jail free card. Jesus got that for us.

He made it possible to be in hell (mortal sin) separated from him, but by the Sacrament of Confession by his death, we get a chance to get out.

But when we die and we reject Christ thats it. Christ will not be there for us again. Not because he is not that Merciful. or Can’t come to us, he knows we will never change and we are evil inside out and we worship the devil and always will. That is really the best way to put it.

The bottom line you choose Evil over Good or over God kind of like the same thing. And you have no more chances. God gave you this whole life to see what you really want. Darkness or light.

So do you see the difference. Now to me hell is another word for Hopeless!

Now remember mortal sin is not eternal unless you die. It can be forgiven in this world by the Cross. The Sacrament of Confession that was made possible. If you refuse to let it go even at your death, its over and you will live in total darkness and missery because basically you are evil.

Does that make better sense to you?