The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[rinnie]

And the scripture is the word Gehenna. Which means unquenchable fire. Which in turn means Eternal punishment.

And as you know eternal means never ending. Just like eternal life means never ending.

Eternal darkness is forever suffering.
Eternal Light is forever happiness.

You have heard many times you can Choose the LIGHT or the DARKNESS.

If you choose the Light you choose Christ.
If you choose the darkness, its the devil.

And what is sad people do not want to hear this. They think God is so merciful that he will let you be evil and do evil and still accept you. Jesus did not teach that. He said you must be righteous to enter heaven, clean, pure, without sin. People think they don’t have to change, they are wrong, Dead wrong.

 

[Anna_Scott]

And the scripture is the word Gehenna. Which means unquenchable fire. Which in turn means Eternal punishment.

Rinnie,

Again, I appreciate all you have written; but you still haven’t answered my question. It requires a “yes” or 'no." You can expound on your answer, if you wish; but I need a “yes” or a “no.” Please provide support for your answer, i.e. Holy Scripture, ECF’s, etc.

If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Peace,
Anna

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Again, I appreciate all you have written; but you still haven’t answered my question. It requires a “yes” or 'no." You can expound on your answer, if you wish; but I need a “yes” or a “no.” Please provide support for your answer, i.e. Holy Scripture, ECF’s, etc.

If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Peace,
Anna

Yes, If we reject Christ we reject eternal life which he gained for us. That part is true.

But now when we choose to go to hell, we are not paying for our sins. That would mean we accept that we have sin and are trying to rid ourself of the sin, In hell we are not paying for our sins, we are saying we don’t want to pay for our sins we want to live them.

You have to understand there is no sin that Jesus did not pay for. It took someone perfect to pay for our sin. But that is Original sin. With original sin when we get Baptised that sin is paid in full and we will never have it again.

Now we have actual sin. I think what you are asking is did Jesus also pay for actual sin that we commit now. The answer again is yes. But here is the difference when we commit actual sin it is not just Baptism and we are wiped clean. Unless of course we do not sin anymore.

But in actual sin we have to do something also, here is the scripture:

Mark 1:15 Repent and believe in the gospel.

Jesus did not say that he took away actual sin that we commit after baptism. He said that there is no sin that we can have that his grace cannot over power. Gal 2:20 Tells us there is no sin that Gods grace cannot not overcome.

But we are told to do things are we not. Repent, Confess our sins, Obey the ten commandments, Love one another. Etc.

Now back to your question how can we say that we pay for our own sins? We can’t. This is not possible. Christ is who paid for all of our sins, and it is through HIM that it is possible to be forgiven. We did not take away death. Christ did.

But on the same token how can we say that if we refuse to repent and believe in the gospel that Jesus did not pay the price for our sin. What sin can we do that he did not pay for? But if we reject him and do not believe in him that is not his fault. He gave us free will.

If we asked him to forgive us and really believed in him we would not go to hell. He knows our heart. He knows everything.

Again if we go to hell this is not to pay for ours sins, it is our choice to live in our sins. We want to be there. We don’t want Gods grace and we don’t want to be with him.

Its not like you go to hell and then say Oh God please forgive me I am so sorry. You want to be there. You don’t want God and never will. That is why you are there. You are not one of his, you are one of the devils.

To go to hell and pay for your sins would mean you are repenting. That is not what hell is. You cannot repent in hell, you refuse to repent which means regret. There is no regret in hell you want to be there.

Like the scripture says there is no life in you.

Here is another scripture for you.

Read John chapter 8:21-59 See Christ tells you here You belong to your Father the devil and you willingly carry out your fathers desires. Read this whole scripture. See Jesus knows who are of him and who are of the devil. They don’t want to even hear the truth. There is no truth in them. ( I think this will do it for you! Let me know)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, If we reject Christ we reject eternal life which he gained for us. That part is true.

But now when we choose to go to hell, we are not paying for our sins. That would mean we accept that we have sin and are trying to rid ourself of the sin, In hell we are not paying for our sins, we are saying we don’t want to pay for our sins we want to live them. . . . .

. . . .Now back to your question how can we say that we pay for our own sins? We can’t. This is not possible. Christ is who paid for all of our sins, and it is through HIM that it is possible to be forgiven. We did not take away death. Christ did.

. . . .Again if we go to hell this is not to pay for ours sins, it is our choice to live in our sins. We want to be there. We don’t want Gods grace and we don’t want to be with him.

. . . . .To go to hell and pay for your sins would mean you are repenting. That is not what hell is. You cannot repent in hell, you refuse to repent which means regret. There is no regret in hell you want to be there. . . . .

Does that mean your answer is no to my question: If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Saying you don’t go to Hell to pay for your sins seems to contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church, which claims Hell does involve “punishment” for our sins. So, isn’t punishment the same as paying a price for our sins?

See Catholic Encyclopedia Re: Hell

"Existence of hell

. . . .There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. . . . ."
link: newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Again, I need more sources for your claim that we do not pay the price for our sins in Hell. What is the source for this claim?

Peace,
Anna

Edited to Add: What is the source for your statement: “There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

 

[rinnie]

Does that mean your answer is no to my question: If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Saying you don’t go to Hell to pay for your sins seems to contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church, which claims Hell does involve “punishment” for our sins. So, isn’t punishment the same as paying a price for our sins?

See Catholic Encyclopedia Re: Hell

"Existence of hell

. . . .There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. . . . ."
link: newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Again, I need more sources for your claim that we do not pay the price for our sins in Hell. What is the source for this claim?

Peace,
Anna

Edited to Add: What is the source for your statement: “There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

Anna we do not have the power to pay the price for our sins. God paid the price for ours sins, if we let him.

If we do not let him then we will have everlasting death. Which means no life with Christ.

If a person goes to hell it does not mean that they paid for their own sins, it means they could care less about paying for their sins. To PAY for you sin, how do you do that Anna? Do you not repent and are you not sorry for your sin?

Then if you are in hell, there is not repentance in hell. Repentance is a Grace given to you by God. What is Repentance or paying for your sin mean to you? Is that not having remorse?

Now if you are asking me if eternal damnatiion in hell is not accepting fault for you sin and refusing to repent, Then Yes I will give that to you.

But if you are asking if eternal death or hell is a result of REFUSING to PAY for your sin then yes, I will agree with you on that.

But Sin is not something that we can pay for on our own without the Grace of God. Do you see what I am saying.

Paying for you sin means you admit your sin, If you pay for your sin you would have to admit you have sin, do you agree? People in hell could care less about God or sin, and the last thing they want to do is PAY for their sin, They would rather live in it for all eternity.

Go back to the Cross. The good thief admitted his sin, he repented, he accepted his fate and said he deserved it and was sorry.

Now go to the bad thief, he could care less about his sin, all he wanted was Jesus to prove he was the Son of God and get him down so he could have more time to sin in this world.

So do you see what I am saying. Repentance is a grace (GOODNESS IN YOU) given to you freely by God that you accept.

Go back to that scripture, Do you see how Jesus told them there was no good in them. They will never quit or pay for their sin, not in their eyes, They could care less about paying for their sin, they are evil. Evil people do not pay for their sin, they wait for ways to sin more.

 

[rinnie]

Anna only Christ can pay for our sins.

Acts 4:12
John 1:14
acts 4:12
Titus 3:5
John 3:16

If you reject Christ you go to hell and there is no payment for your sins. You do not go to hell to pay for your sins you go to hell because you refuse to accept Christ’s death as payment of your sins. So now what you have is ETERNAL DEATH. Eternal death means no payment will ever be enough. You do not have the power to pay for your own sins, and if you are in hell Christ will not help you. In hell it is eternal separation from Christ. So full payment is not possible.

So hell is a result of your own free well to reject that payment.

If you can repay your own sins in hell that would make you equal to God would it Not??:tsktsk:

 

[BartBurk]

As a Director of Catechetical Ministry at a local Roman Catholic parish located at So.Cal., a particular topic has caught my attention: Hell. I find it amazing at the amount of parents who get offended when Hell is taught or mentioned. I have had numerous complaints by parents telling me why I allow my catechist to teach about Hell? My rebuttal: Since when has the RCC denied the existence of Hell?

My question to my non-Catholic brethen is simple:

Does your particular Christian tradition (Baptist,Methodist,etc) teach about Hell?

God Bless

I wonder if any Christians deny the reality of Hell? I’ve never met one who did. There might be those who deny certain teachings about Hell in regards to how long it lasts or where it is, etc., but I’ve never met a Christian who didn’t believe those who reject Christ in this life would experience punishment for it. Even most Christian Universalists I am aware of state that those who reject Christ will experience corrective punishment for their disobedience in a place they would label Hell. They would insist that a sinner who rejects Christ will have to pay for sin until they have paid the last penny for their disobedience. Then every knee will bow and every tongue will freely confess that Jesus is the Christ at the last day.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Does that mean your answer is no to my question: If Christ paid the price for our sins by conquering death; then refusing Christ would mean rejecting what he conquered, would it not? Then we would pay the price for our sins in Hell. **Again, is the price we pay for our sins in Hell different from the price Christ paid for our sins? **

Saying you don’t go to Hell to pay for your sins seems to contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church, which claims Hell does involve “punishment” for our sins. So, isn’t punishment the same as paying a price for our sins?

See Catholic Encyclopedia Re: Hell

"Existence of hell

. . . .There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. . . . ."
link: newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Again, I need more sources for your claim that we do not pay the price for our sins in Hell. What is the source for this claim?

Peace,
Anna

Edited to Add: What is the source for your statement: “[SIGN]There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

[/SIGN]

Simple Anna, Regret is a Grace, regret is sorrow. There is no Grace in hell because you cannot have the Grace of God in hell because in hell you are separated from God’s Grace.

 

[Anna_Scott]

[SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]
Simple Anna, Regret is a Grace, regret is sorrow. There is no Grace in hell because you cannot have the Grace of God in hell because in hell you are separated from God’s Grace.

If "regret is a Grace and regret is sorrow, and there is no grace in hell, that would mean there is no sorrow in hell. Is that really what you are saying?

Again, what is your source for your statement, “There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

O.K. I think we have a semantics issue. I’m thinking Christ took our sins upon Himself and suffered in our place-took the suffering we deserve. I do agree that we cannot “atone” for our own sins. I think that is what you are trying to say, when you say we do not pay the price for our sins. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

But, then if we say one cannot atone for their own sins, how is it possible that one can “expiate” (atone for) their sins in purgatory?

Please provide sources with your answers.

Anna

 

[rinnie]

If "regret is a Grace and regret is sorrow, and there is no grace in hell, that would mean there is no sorrow in hell. Is that really what you are saying?

Again, what is your source for your statement, “There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

O.K. I think we have a semantics issue. I’m thinking Christ took our sins upon Himself and suffered in our place-took the suffering we deserve. I do agree that we cannot “atone” for our own sins. I think that is what you are trying to say, when you say we do not pay the price for our sins. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

But, then if we say one cannot atone for their own sins, how is it possible that one can “expiate” (atone for) their sins in purgatory?

Please provide sources with your answers.

Anna

Well see Anna now you are in a whole different ball game here. Hell and Purgatory cannot be compared. Purgatory to begin with is a state. ( It is so weird, I have been really learning the Church teaching on this recently, and it keeps comming up no matter what I am on. Talk about God speaking to you huh).

But anyway Purgatory is a process. It is a FINAL CLEANSING.

Now 2 Tim 1:16-18 Paul asks for mercy on Onesiphorus he is dead. Now you do not need mercy in heaven and there is no mercy in hell! Purgatory!!

Heb.12:14 Without holiness we cannot see the Lord. Now we need final santification to be holy before God, if this PROCESS is not COMPLETED in this world it is completed in the transitional State which = Purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19 4:6 Jesus preached to the souls in prison. These are the Righteous souls being purified fo the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27 Nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Unclean comes from the greek word koinon which means Spritual corruption. Even the thought of sin must be eliminated before entering heaven. God gives us the final process to make us ready to enter. Talk about the mercy of God!! Purgatory again is an added grace we do not deserve or could ever earn.

Rev. 21:4 God shall wipe away ever tear… Now God will do this but only after the coming of the new heaven and new earth. Now there is no morningor pain in heaven and God will not wipe away their tears in hell (remember total separation from God). This has to be the process of Purgatory.

So do you see the difference. Purgatory is no way a separation from God it is actually a wonderful Loving Mercy given to us from God. Mercy=Grace=The Cross+God paying for that Mercy he gave us. Only because of him is it posssible.

I could show you tons of scripture for Purgatory, but the point is, to know the difference there is no outcome for Hell.

When you die and you are Holy you go directly to heaven. If you are deemed worthy for heaven but need to be cleansed from all (lets say even a thought of sin) you need to have that final cleaning by God. But the outcome is eternal life with him in heaven.

If when you die you reject him and his mercy, there is no purgatory no heaven, you go what you asked for.

I think 1:3:10-15 tells it the best. If any mans work is burned up he will suffer loss though he himself will be saved by only through fire. That is the process of the final cleansing and God is there because It is not hell, it is not total separation from God. I think this is what you are seeing as being Hell and it isn’t.

Just because you suffer loss, it is loss of your desire for sin, and I believe the fire is not what we see as fire, but burning need to want to be in heaven so bad with God that you give it all you have. That when the process is over it is all about being with God with every power of your being.

Read Zech. 13:8-9 God says 2/3 shall perish and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire and REFINED like Silver and tested like Gold. The ones that persih go to hell, no need for refinement.

Hope this helps.

But bottom line Yes we have to do the work here or in Purgatory. But by doing the work even here does not take away from the Cross or Gods grace. IT is because of the Cross and Gods grace the work is possble. We are not earning our own Salvation, we can’t. Salvation comes from God and the Grace given to us, we just USE his Grace. But we can choose to not use his Grace also and turn to the devil and do his works. Its up to us.

That is why God said we are judged by our works not our words. LIke how the Bible says on the Last day many will call his name, And God will say I do not know you. How could God know someone who is evil and did evil all of their life. IT is really God saying you can’t full me, I know who you are, I know what you did, and I know you will never change. God knows a heart and mind. That is why he is God!! Again hope I gave you alot to think about.

 

[rinnie]

One more thing Anna, Hell is not paying for your sins, it is your payment for the way you lived your life.

You get what you ask for. Like if I go out and put in a beautiful garden, weed it, water it, labor hard, at the end of summer I get wondeful fresh food.

But if I do nothing, I have nothing,

God did not die to give us everything for nothing. God died on the Cross to make it possible for us to work together with him to have everything. Or reject him and not work and have nothing.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

If "regret is a Grace and regret is sorrow, and there is no grace in hell, that would mean there is no sorrow in hell. Is that really what you are saying?

Again, what is your source for your statement, “There is no regret in hell you want to be there”?

O.K. I think we have a semantics issue. I’m thinking Christ took our sins upon Himself and suffered in our place-took the suffering we deserve. I do agree that we cannot “atone” for our own sins. I think that is what you are trying to say, when you say we do not pay the price for our sins. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

But, [SIGN]then if we say one cannot atone for their own sins, how is it possible that one [/SIGN]can “expiate” (atone for) their sins in purgatory?

Please provide sources with your answers.

Anna

Simple because of God’s Mercy. The same way we can do it here right now. Repent, Confess, take full advaantage of the free gifts he gave us. He gave us his body and blood in the Eucharist! What do you think happens when you receive that!! You get GRACE tons of it. Grace to be good and honest and Christlike!!

What does Confession do, It is power given to the Priest by Jesus to FORGIVE SINS IN MY NAME. Same with Purgatory the same as we suffer here and God is here with us, he is with us there also. We can pay for our sins by his grace. what I mean by pay is when we confess that is how we pay the way God made it possible for us to pay. But not w/o him could that be possible.

 

[rinnie]

And one more thing I agree there is no sorrow in hell. Only missery. Hate, Evil. darkness.

It is a life that you choose for yourself and want for yourself. I know what you are thinking who could imagine. But only true evil can know true evil.

Just like only true goodness could imagine true goodness.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Hell and Purgatory cannot be compared. Purgatory to begin with is a state. . . . .But anyway Purgatory is a process. It is a FINAL CLEANSING.

. . . . .So do you see the difference. Purgatory is no way a separation from God it is actually a wonderful Loving Mercy given to us from God. Mercy=Grace=The Cross+God paying for that Mercy he gave us. Only because of him is it posssible.

. . . .When you die and you are Holy you go directly to heaven. If you are deemed worthy for heaven but need to be cleansed from all (lets say even a thought of sin) you need to have that final cleaning by God. But the outcome is eternal life with him in heaven.

If when you die you reject him and his mercy, there is no purgatory no heaven, you go what you asked for.

. . . .But bottom line Yes we have to do the work here or in Purgatory. But by doing the work even here does not take away from the Cross or Gods grace. IT is because of the Cross and Gods grace the work is possble. . . .

Rinnie,
I appreciate all the references to purgatory. That’s been on my mind too, and I do know that the Jews also have a belief in purgatory (I posted quotes on several threads).

But, then if we say one cannot atone for their own sins, how is it possible that one can “expiate” (atone for) their sins in purgatory?

Simple because of God’s Mercy. The same way we can do it here right now. Repent, Confess, take full advaantage of the free gifts he gave us. He gave us his body and blood in the Eucharist! What do you think happens when you receive that!! You get GRACE tons of it. Grace to be good and honest and Christlike!!

What does Confession do, It is power given to the Priest by Jesus to FORGIVE SINS IN MY NAME. Same with Purgatory the same as we suffer here and God is here with us, he is with us there also. We can pay for our sins by his grace. what I mean by pay is when we confess that is how we pay the way God made it possible for us to pay. But not w/o him could that be possible.

Keep in mind, I do know that only Christ can atone for our sins; and I understand the Catholic belief that purgatory is a process and a final cleansing. Still, in purgatory, more is happening than repentance, confession, and taking full advantage of the free gifts Christ gave to us. According to Catholic teachings, the souls in purgatory do actually expiate (atone for) the remainder of their sins in torture. I think this is probably one of the main reasons many non-Catholics take issue with the idea of purgatory–because only Christ can atone for sin.

QUOD ANNIVERSARIUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON
HIS SACERDOTAL JUBILEE

“10. Thus those pious souls who expiate the remainder of their sins amidst such tortures will receive a special and opportune consolation, thanks to the life giving Victim which the Universal Church united to her visible head, and animated with a like spirit of charity, will offer to God that He may admit them to the dwelling of His consolation, to light and eternal peace.”

Given at St. Peter’s, at Rome, at the solemnity of Easter, in the year 1888, the eleventh of our Pontificate.

LEO XIII

© Copyright 1888 - Libreria Editrice Vaticana

Link: vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01041888_quod-anniversarius_en.html

I also understand that it is only through the great Mercy and Grace of Christ, who suffered and conquered death, that we are reconciled to the Father.

And—I agree that Hell is the result of our choices–our sin, but no one is going to say, “Yes I choose eternal torment.”

I’m sure many people, who have died, never realized there was a choice to be made. The Gospel certainly has not reached every person who ever lived and died, unless Christ comes to all in death (he did go to certain souls after his crucifixion)–but you’re saying it’s too late once we die. So, it’s basically “Off to “eternal torment” you go.”

One more thing Anna, **Hell **is not paying for your sins, it is your payment for the way you lived your life.

Rinnie,
This statement doesn’t make sense to me. If Hell is paying for the way we lived our life, and we live our life in a sinful way; then Hell is paying for our sins. Since no price we pay is ever enough; we pay for those sins throughout eternity.

So, we’re right back where we started. If Christ took the sins of the world upon Himself, suffered, died, conquered death; wouldn’t that mean He suffered what we should suffer, if we do not accept Christ–meaning what we would suffer in Hell without the Atonement of Christ?

Very interesting and thought-provoking discussion, Rinnie. I appreciate your posts.

Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

One can view puratory no different than earth in relation to the Soul. And many have in illustration. The final purification process simply takes place only without the flesh in puratory. This could and does also happen to very good souls here on Earth in the flesh.

With hell there is no completion of process of the purification of the Soul. Its punishment for eternity for a choice through free-will in the denial of Jesus Christ/God as savior. So theres no rehabiliation in the sense of the Souls purification. So when we say paying for our sins? Yes but without a purification and in a prepetual sense. So it may also said you are paying for your sins in purgatory and on earth being all of the flesh are sinners.

You are paying for your sins in both puratory and hell. Yet in hell you are damned for eternity.

No-one reachs a completely Divine state on earth also. Its been said even the Pope lives with one foot in humanity and one in Divinity. Which is to say although he is chosen by God. He is still of the flesh.

Anyway this has been my take on sin and the process of purification and a State of Grace. Which btw many also obtain a state of grace for periods in time as they travel the spiritual path in the Lord. How long remains a personal challenge. None are in a perpetual, permanent state of grace though. Had that been the case then there would truly be a complexity which isn’t existing.

Those like St Padre Pio, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross. Francis of Assisi. They are Blessed and live very close to this state of being and said to be Touched by God, constantly not unlike the Pope or many whom we are unaware of. But they themselves openly admit, they fall short. There are Saints who are going directly to heaven. No question about it. And its been defined at fatima by the Blessed Mother Mary and the children their. As has the truth of the existence of hell.

Its been said than when sin appears rampant on earth and the prevailing attitute, then God opens a window in time, so man may once again regain his vision and see truth. Fatima was just such a window.

God Bless, Gary

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I appreciate all the references to purgatory. That’s been on my mind too, and I do know that the Jews also have a belief in purgatory (I posted quotes on several threads).

Keep in mind, I do know that only Christ can atone for our sins; and I understand the Catholic belief that purgatory is a process and a final cleansing. Still, in purgatory, more is happening than repentance, confession, and taking full advantage of the free gifts Christ gave to us. According to Catholic teachings, the souls in purgatory do actually expiate (atone for) the remainder of their sins in torture. I think this is probably one of the main reasons many non-Catholics take issue with the idea of purgatory–because only Christ can atone for sin.

QUOD ANNIVERSARIUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON
HIS SACERDOTAL JUBILEE

“10. Thus those pious souls who expiate the remainder of their sins amidst such tortures will receive a special and opportune consolation, thanks to the life giving Victim which the Universal Church united to her visible head, and animated with a like spirit of charity, will offer to God that He may admit them to the dwelling of His consolation, to light and eternal peace.”

Given at St. Peter’s, at Rome, at the solemnity of Easter, in the year 1888, the eleventh of our Pontificate.

LEO XIII

© Copyright 1888 - Libreria Editrice Vaticana

Link: vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01041888_quod-anniversarius_en.html

I also understand that it is only through the great Mercy and Grace of Christ, who suffered and conquered death, that we are reconciled to the Father.

And—I agree that Hell is the result of our choices–our sin, but no one is going to say, “Yes I choose eternal torment.”

I’m sure many people, who have died, never realized there was a choice to be made. The Gospel certainly has not reached every person who ever lived and died, unless Christ comes to all in death (he did go to certain souls after his crucifixion)–but you’re saying it’s too late once we die. So, it’s basically “Off to “eternal torment” you go.”

Rinnie,
This statement doesn’t make sense to me. If Hell is paying for the way we lived our life, and we live our life in a sinful way; then Hell is paying for our sins. Since no price we pay is ever enough; we pay for those sins throughout eternity.

So, we’re right back where we started. If Christ took the sins of the world upon Himself, suffered, died, conquered death; wouldn’t that mean He suffered what we should suffer, if we do not accept Christ–meaning what we would suffer in Hell without the Atonement of Christ?

Very interesting and thought-provoking discussion, Rinnie. I appreciate your posts.

Anna

Let me get your thinking another way for a minute. Yes Christ paid for all sins. There is no sin that could send us to hell that could keep us from being in heaven with God except to reject him.

Now if someone is in hell because they reject God that has nothing to do with him not paying for all of our sins.

That is just soneone who does not want their sins to be paid for by Christ. Its like going out to lunch and me paying for your lunch. And you say NO I will pay for my own Lunch.

But now lets say you don’t have any money or anyway of paying for your lunch.

Now you can’t say that I did not offer to pay for your lunch. Now how can you pay for your lunch if I was the only person who could pay for it. So you could work for the rest of your life but never pay the debt. Stupid example but you get my point

Now if there was ONE sin in hell that Jesus did not pay for we would be told. But there is ONE and we both agree to reject the Holy Spirit.

Now if you refuse to accept God you cannot enter heaven. But no matter what other sin you ever do in this world, if you repent, are sorry and quit the sin it cannot keep you from Eternal life in Christ.

But now you refuse to accept God. Now think about it, WHY? Because you don’t want him in your life. So if you don’t want him in your life at the final judgement, God knows a heart. He knows you will never change your mind.

So do you see what I am saying. You are not paying for your sins in hell you are living in your sins in hell because YOU want to. It has nothing to do with God or his Mercy or his Love for us.

The bottom line eternal death or eternal fire which by the way is the same as I believe I said as eternal separation from Christ has nothing to do with Christ. It has to do with US. We said NO!

Do you see what I am saying? It has nothing to do with Jesus not paying for our sin, Hell has everything to do with us refusing to repent and be sorry for our sin, and not wanting Jesus in our life. Jesus gave us free will and with that free will we either choose him or reject him. But us not wanting Jesus has nothing to do with the MERCY of Jesus he would accept us in a heart beat. He loves us, ITs about US accepting Him. Does that make any better sense to you?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I appreciate all the references to purgatory. That’s been on my mind too, and I do know that the Jews also have a belief in purgatory (I posted quotes on several threads).

Keep in mind, I do know that only Christ can atone for our sins; and I understand the Catholic belief that purgatory is a process and a final cleansing. Still, in purgatory, more is happening than repentance, confession, and taking full advantage of the free gifts Christ gave to us. According to Catholic teachings, the souls in purgatory do actually expiate (atone for) the remainder of their sins in torture. I think this is probably one of the main reasons many non-Catholics take issue with the idea of purgatory–because only Christ can atone for sin.

QUOD ANNIVERSARIUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON
HIS SACERDOTAL JUBILEE

“10. Thus those pious souls who expiate the remainder of their sins amidst such tortures will receive a special and opportune consolation, thanks to the life giving Victim which the Universal Church united to her visible head, and animated with a like spirit of charity, will offer to God that He may admit them to the dwelling of His consolation, to light and eternal peace.”

Given at St. Peter’s, at Rome, at the solemnity of Easter, in the year 1888, the eleventh of our Pontificate.

LEO XIII

© Copyright 1888 - Libreria Editrice Vaticana

Link: vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01041888_quod-anniversarius_en.html

I also understand that it is only through the great Mercy and Grace of Christ, who suffered and conquered death, that we are reconciled to the Father.

And—I agree that Hell is the result of our choices–our sin, but no one is going to say, “Yes I choose eternal torment.”

I’m sure many people, who have died, never realized there was a choice to be made. The Gospel certainly has not reached every person who ever lived and died, unless Christ comes to all in death (he did go to certain souls after his crucifixion)–but you’re saying it’s too late once we die. So, it’s basically “Off to “eternal torment” you go.”

Rinnie,
This statement doesn’t make sense to me. If Hell is paying for the way we lived our life, and we live our life in a sinful way; then Hell is paying for our sins. Since no price we pay is ever enough; we pay for those sins throughout eternity.

So, we’re right back where we started. If Christ took the sins of the world upon Himself, suffered, died, conquered death; wouldn’t that mean He suffered what we should suffer, if we do not accept Christ–meaning what we would suffer in Hell without the Atonement of Christ?

Very interesting and thought-provoking discussion, Rinnie. I appreciate your posts.

Anna

What the Pope outlined in Blue is the absolute truth. ITs purgatory time. But what I have learned about Purgatory you can do it now or later. But here is the thing. it so so much easier and better to do it here.

Purgatory is paying for our sins, but takes nothing away from ours sins already being pre- paid, but we have to do our part also. But see in the O.T there was no way to pay for original sin and with original sin you were born with you could not enter heaven.

That is why they were waiting for Jesus to come and take away death of the soul which is Sin. When the souls in the O.T were released it was by Jesus and the reason the payment was once and for all because then they got to go to heaven. It cleansed them from Original sin.

But now comes us. We get free from Original sin right off the bat by Baptism. But now we have actual sin, Now Jesus made it possible for us to die Holy w/o sin by the Sacraments. But now by his death he made it POSSIBLE for us to be forgiven for our actual sins. All we have to do is ask, repent etc. That is why he left us the Church.

See this is what I learned. In the O.T purgatory could not be by-passed. Someone had to remove Original Sin. But now Purgatory can be by-passed by Christ and his Sacraments. We can indeed do our cleansing here on earth. How? By confession, and then the continued struggle to get rid of the sin once and for all. It is also a process do you not agree?

But for those who have be deemed for heaven but did not finish the process lets say of ridding oneself of the sin completely. Now that means to never ever want to ever do the sin again. They must finish the process.

Like My sin would be to gamble. I do love the slots. Now if that becomes a bad addiction for me and I would have to quit forever, I could never look back and say yes it was wrong, but boy I remember the good times. See what I am saying, You can find no fun in that sin ever again.

Anna I may have a long process ahead of me in purgatory, I do love to play the slot machines Lets pray it does not become an addiction or sin for me or I am screwed

 

[rinnie]

One can view puratory no different than earth in relation to the Soul. And many have in illustration. The final purification process simply takes place only without the flesh in puratory. This could and does also happen to very good souls here on Earth in the flesh.

With hell there is no completion of process of the purification of the Soul. Its punishment for eternity for a choice through free-will in the denial of Jesus Christ/God as savior. So theres no rehabiliation in the sense of the Souls purification. So when we say paying for our sins? Yes but without a purification and in a prepetual sense. So it may also said you are paying for your sins in purgatory and on earth being all of the flesh are sinners.

You are paying for your sins in both puratory and hell. Yet in hell you are damned for eternity.

No-one reachs a completely Divine state on earth also. Its been said even the Pope lives with one foot in humanity and one in Divinity. Which is to say although he is chosen by God. He is still of the flesh.

Anyway this has been my take on sin and the process of purification and a State of Grace. Which btw many also obtain a state of grace for periods in time as they travel the spiritual path in the Lord. How long remains a personal challenge. None are in a perpetual, permanent state of grace though. Had that been the case then there would truly be a complexity which isn’t existing.

Those like St Padre Pio, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross. Francis of Assisi. They are Blessed and live very close to this state of being and said to be Touched by God, constantly not unlike the Pope or many whom we are unaware of. But they themselves openly admit, they fall short. There are Saints who are going directly to heaven. No question about it. And its been defined at fatima by the Blessed Mother Mary and the children their. As has the truth of the existence of hell.

Its been said than when sin appears rampant on earth and the prevailing attitute, then God opens a window in time, so man may once again regain his vision and see truth. Fatima was just such a window.

God Bless, Gary

Now see Gary this is where I was completly confused on Purgatory also. But it CAN be acomplished here on earth. But not MANY do it. But remember by the Sacraments God did make it possible for us. Remember nothing can not be obtained by his grace. But I admit I do not see many getting a NON-STOP FLIGHT BUt its possible now. The Catholic Church is what made that possible.

Scripture tells us we are all called to be Saints and Jesus did make that possible.

 

[Anna_Scott]

What the Pope outlined in Blue is the absolute truth… . . .

One can view puratory no different than earth in relation to the Soul. And many have in illustration. The final purification process simply takes place only without the flesh in puratory. This could and does also happen to very good souls here on Earth in the flesh … . . .

My post from the thread entitled, “Is Hell Eternal?”

Richard Kastner,

I’ve been posting on another thread about Hell too. I’m trying to consider Scripture as a whole and I find a strong case for annihilation. The idea of God imposing eternal torment for actions in this “blink” in eternity which is our time on earth is beyond what I can comprehend. The idea of eternal unimaginable torment for those who fall short, has caused me at times to wish I had never been born. It is too much and such an idea causes despair. There were periods in history when people were driven to such despair they committed suicide.

When you really think about anyone, and especially the people we love, meeting such a fate; it is just too much. I’ve gone through periods of depression over the teachings on Hell. I grew up in the Baptist Church, and it was all about Hell and fear and guilt and absolute terror thinking about what God would do to those who are not “saved.”

We are told not to despair, but if we truly love others as ourselves; the thought of people spending eternity in torment is sickening. It can eat away at you, until you wish you had never been born. Why would God create mankind, knowing most of his creation will spend eternity in torment? This makes no sense if we claim that God is merciful.

On the other “Hell” thread, I posted scriptures and quotes. Here, I’m just letting out my feelings about this topic. I doubt any of you will give me an answer I haven’t heard before, or an answer that will take away the anguish I feel about the subject. I’ve read numerous Catholics posts that say we choose hell, as if God has nothing to do with it–yet He is God and there is nothing He cannot do and nothing is beyond His control. If God wanted to reach into hell and pull people out, He has the power to do that.

Mankind is not equally exposed to the Gospel. Not all are blessed with a “Damascus Road” experience like Paul.

I think I need to get off of these “Hell” threads for awhile, because the topic is seriously affecting my state of mind. It’s one thing to wish you were dead, but when you begin to wish you were never born–that is utter despair-that is dangerous despair.

Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

My post from the thread entitled, “Is Hell Eternal?”

Actually Anna I confused the two threads and mean’t to post on the other.

I understand what your saying very cleary. And I would agree I also do not like to constantly dwell on the idea of suffering to obtain purification with the weight of the Cross we all in some way carry.

I also was drawing comparisons in similairites {purgatroy and the physical world} not differences. I thought about this after my post. Not that this came up though.

Life is long lesson in humility, I understand your thinking and feeling, and Anna there is nothing wrong with enjoying your life nor being happy the high percentage of the time if its possible or is indeed a reality today.

To me its a process of seeking to gain as much knowledge as I can in this area, then with that in the back of mind to also move on. Not to dwell on trails of the cross when your life is love, joy happiness. But to know in the back of your mind they are very real.

We don’t believe we have to dwell on the trails of the dark night of soul though Anna. And I agree we must also find other means which encourage the happiness we have obtained and not conatantly suck it from us. I believe we must understand them though. To understand will prevent us from foolishly being in a painful, dire situation, where pain is as much as could be possible, or long term suffering. Then denouncing God do to a lack of understanding of where the Joy went and if indeed their is a God. JOB is great example in the Bible. Jonah, King David, the Apostle Paul.

I would hate to think that anyone would reach the end of the line, after a long life, and all it brought, then to make a foolish choice through Free-Will and reject God by not understanding what is happening to us on earth as a whole.

Anyway God Bless my sister. Hope all is well with you and yours. Great to kick around inner thoughts with you in refection.

But as far as denial of hell? A error which may lead to grave results. If we shoot for heaven? Earth come along with it automatically. If we shoot for earth? Then we lose BOTH!

God Bless,
Gary