The Devil's Battle Plan

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  • Being merciful would imply a feeling. Merciless would imply the lack of one.*
Excuse me. The word “merciless” implies extreme cruelty, which is certainly a feeling. :eek:
No, it doesn’t. Mercliess means without mercy. You can ignore the plight of other people without feeling rancour towards them. In fact, we all do, every day…
 
Leela
*
The reason it is an important question to answer is that if the world without the devil is no difference than the world with the devil, then it is meaningless to say that the devil exists, so I’m wondering what you can mean when you say that he does. *

But the world is not without the devil. There being no such world, how can I speculate on what it would be like?

Should I also speculate on what the world would be like without pizza? Pure hell, I imagine. :eek::eek::eek: 👍

Since you don’t believe in the devil, for you it wouldn’t really be speculation, would it?

I’m wondering why God would allow the devil to influence people.

Because God is a dramatist and needs a villain to complicate the plot?
 
Moonstruck
*
Mercliess means without mercy. *

Read on in your dictionary. Unless you have a pocket size one, it should also read … “pitiless, cruel.”

What are these if not attributes of a sentient being?

What you are afraid to do is put any idea of spirit into your universe. That is because your universe is empty of spirit and meaning. A big fat zero. No doubt the devil is amused by your big fat zero, since it gives him wonderful cover as he works his will with you. :bigyikes:
 
Moonstruck
*
Mercliess means without mercy. *

Read on in your dictionary. Unless you have a pocket size one, it should also read … “pitiless, cruel.”

What are these if not attributes of a sentient being?
Okay then, if we really must get into a war of semantics, I retract my use of the word merciless to describe nature…
 
What you are afraid to do is put any idea of spirit into your universe. That is because your universe is empty of spirit and meaning. A big fat zero. No doubt the devil is amused by your big fat zero, since it gives him wonderful cover as he works his will with you. :bigyikes:
Sir, you don’t know anything about me. There is plenty of spirit and meaning in my Universe. Without invisible friends nor invisible enemies…
 
*Okay then, if we really must get into a war of semantics, I retract my use of the word merciless to describe nature… *

We can’t say “indifferent” either … since that is also the attribute of a sentient being.

You think the universe is not benevolent because you think there is no God. I think the universe is benevolent because the universe expresses the benevolent will of God … which was to design all of creation in order that we might come into being.

God gives us the gift of life … and we know whom to thank.

You see no gift and you offer no thanks.
 
There is plenty of spirit and meaning in my Universe.

Oh, I’m sorry. I assumed you are a determinist and a materialist. I assumed you believe that when we are dead we are dust and nothing more.

Apparently you are a new kind of agnostic? Tell me more.
 
There is plenty of spirit and meaning in my Universe.

Oh, I’m sorry. I assumed you are a determinist and a materialist. I assumed you believe that when we are dead we are dust and nothing more.

Apparently you are a new kind of agnostic? Tell me more.
I’m a materialist in as much as I like money, if that’s what you mean. I like nice things. Nice clothes, nice cars, nice guitars…

I don’t believe in life after death, I do however, perceive the spiritual connection between myself, my fellow beings and the world and Universe we live in. I don’t think you need to be immortal to lead a spiritual life. Perhaps you can explain to me why immortality after death is prerequisite to spirituality?
 
moonstruck

*Perhaps you can explain to me why immortality after death is prerequisite to spirituality? *

Spirituality assumes a sense of meaning in life. Without a sense of meaning (destiny), we are going to be about as spiritual as a dog burying its bones.

That is why true spirituality, as opposed to worshiping trees and stones, wind and rain, will require that we are designed for some higher purpose than the needs of our bellies and our sex organs.

This is born out by the fact that religious people find more meaning in life than atheists, and more ways to lift themselves up spiritually in times of trouble. The following article bears this out by pointing to the suicide rate among religious people as lower than the suicide rate among atheists. There is Someone to turn to when all else fails.

adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

It is better to believe that we have a destiny than to believe that we are useless atoms that came together by sheer luck.

Though the devil would like us to believe as much! :eek:
 
*Okay then, if we really must get into a war of semantics, I retract my use of the word merciless to describe nature… *

We can’t say “indifferent” either … since that is also the attribute of a sentient being.

You think the universe is not benevolent because you think there is no God. I think the universe is benevolent because the universe expresses the benevolent will of God … which was to design all of creation in order that we might come into being.

God gives us the gift of life … and we know whom to thank.

You see no gift and you offer no thanks.
You can anthropomorphize just about any word in the English language, if you are really that petty minded and disingenuous?

I suspect that when I used the word merciless, you knew exactly what I meant. You don’t strike me as being stupid, but maybe I’m overestimating you?
 
moonstruck

*Perhaps you can explain to me why immortality after death is prerequisite to spirituality? *

Spirituality assumes a sense of meaning in life. Without a sense of meaning (destiny), we are going to be about as spiritual as a dog burying its bones.

That is why true spirituality, as opposed to worshiping trees and stones, wind and rain, will require that we are designed for some higher purpose than the needs of our bellies and our sex organs.

This is born out by the fact that religious people find more meaning in life than atheists, and more ways to lift themselves up spiritually in times of trouble. The following article bears this out by pointing to the suicide rate among religious people as lower than the suicide rate among atheists. There is Someone to turn to when all else fails.

adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

It is better to believe that we have a destiny than to believe that we are useless atoms that came together by sheer luck.

Though the devil would like us to believe as much! :eek:
Roughly translated, anyone who doesn’t think the way you do cannot be spiritual.

Vanity is a sin my friend, one of the seven deadly ones.

Incidentally, no one is suggesting the atoms cmae together by sheer luck. Chemistry is not random.
 
Roughly translated, anyone who doesn’t think the way you do cannot be spiritual.

Vanity is a sin my friend, one of the seven deadly ones.

Incidentally, no one is suggesting the atoms cmae together by sheer luck. Chemistry is not random.
I’m not really taking sides here, but how do you get “anyone who doesn’t think the way you do cannot be spiritual.” from that passage? I don’t see it.
 
*Incidentally, no one is suggesting the atoms cmae together by sheer luck. Chemistry is not random. *

The first atoms on this planet that produced life, did they come together by luck or by design?

The devil would like you to think by luck, since he hates God’s design.

Vanity is a sin my friend, one of the seven deadly ones.

Ah, you got some spirituality from the Bible! :clapping:
 
One English philosopher, C.E.M.Joad, became a theist precisely because there is so much fiendish and horrific evil in the world that cannot be explained scientifically…

Or as Chesterton put it, Man is the only animal who has gone completely off his head.

The devil didn’t bother the others because they were not the ultimate prize.
 
*Incidentally, no one is suggesting the atoms cmae together by sheer luck. Chemistry is not random. *

The first atoms on this planet that produced life, did they come together by luck or by design?
Neither.
The devil would like you to think by luck, since he hates God’s design.
Vanity is a sin my friend, one of the seven deadly ones.
Ah, you got some spirituality from the Bible! :clapping:
I liked some of the Gospels of Christ, Matthew and Luke for example. I thought they spread a very nice message of goodwill, socialism and the idea that all people should be brother’s and sisters… I thought that Exodus, Leveticus and Deuteronomy were vulgar filth worse than any pornographic publication I have ever seen and I thought Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians were the ravings of a madman, probably in the throes of epilepsy, which would be untreatable and misunderstood at the time.
 
I’m not really taking sides here, but how do you get “anyone who doesn’t think the way you do cannot be spiritual.” from that passage? I don’t see it.
“This is born out by the fact that religious people find more meaning in life than atheists…”

“That is why true spirituality, as opposed to worshiping trees and stones, wind and rain”

A Wiccan to turn round and say that true spirituality is hardly satisfied by making protestations of undying love to something that isn’t there in a church every Sunday morning… It would be the same offensive trivialisation of someone else’s spirituality and assumption of being holier than thou.
 
moonstruck

A Wiccan to turn round and say that true spirituality is hardly satisfied by making protestations of undying love to something that isn’t there in a church every Sunday morning…

He’s there for me, and for you.

*I thought Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians were the ravings of a madman, probably in the throes of epilepsy, which would be untreatable and misunderstood at the time. *

What was for you the most offensive passage?

It would be the same offensive trivialisation of someone else’s spirituality and assumption of being holier than thou.

“holier than thou” … Precisely what Christ preached against. We agree.
 
I know you believe it. The trouble is that you have no good reason for believing it.

Charlemagne II: Translation: “There’s no evidence that this being exists?! Why, that’s actually evidence that this being does exist!!”

No, my argument is that there is absolutely zero evidence that any such being exists at all. I’ve seen the devil plenty of times, in movies and TV shows. I just don’t see any reason at all to think that it’s a real being, in the exact same way that I don’t see any evidence that the Tricks Rabbit is a real being.
I’ll say it again. The night my father died, he turned up in my room. He died in a suburb called Nundah, and I was trying to sleep in a suburb called Yeronga. I didn’t know he’d died, and wasn’t told by normal means for another four days. And I still remember the scream 31 years later. It was so terrifying that I started to scream, and yet all I could see was his terror. I was unable to see what horrified him so badly. Just him.

When my uncle (my mother’s brother) turned up physically to tell me he’d died four days later (for the simple reason his body wasn’t found for four days - shades of Lazarus - “he stinketh”, except that he didn’t come out of the tomb), I still remember turning towards the bedroom and thinking, “Then what the hell was that the other night?” My uncle saw my expression and asked me if I was all right. I said I was, and did not mention the incident to him.

Have it your way. But I ***know ***the devil exists. Padre Pio used to be thrown around his room by demonic forces. Talk to people who have been involved in exorcisms. They’ll tell you whether he exists or not. To quote an American priest in an article in “Time” magazine, when it was reported that the Vatican was increasing the number of exorcisms ti was dealing with, he stated that “when youj’ve got someone floating around the ceiling”, you knew you had more than just a psychiatric state on hand.

But the devil is not going to disillusion you with a display like that because that would make it obvious to you he exists. I remember a pastor on TV years ago who’d joined the church on account of the devil (I think he might have been a Seventh Day Adventist. it was a long time ago.). He said at one stage he’d joined a satanic cult, but his reason was purely sexual. He’d heard they were pretty sexually orientated. As a young bloke, sex was pretty much on his mind, and he thought that he was going to get a bit. But he said to the interviewer, “When I saw the things that happened there, I realised there was a devil! And if there was a devil, there was a God. And I’d better find Him, and quick!”

I go to a Catholic psychiatrist, only a couple of times a year now, mainly for reactive depression, which is usually caused by prolonged and negative influences. I blame this on my father. However when I told him about a couple of incidents when a voice had cut clear across my thoughts in relation to two specific topics, the psychiatrist said, “That’s interesting. Did I tell you about my experience?”

I said he hadn’t. He said he’d been sitting in his office one day typing on his computer when a voice just suddenly said, loud and clear, “Go to Maclean”. Maclean is a town in Northern New South Wales in Australia. He lives in Brisbane in Queensland which is only about 100 kilometres or so from the New South Wales border.

Since no context was given whatsoever, he simply noted it. A couple of months later he was involved in a ‘family healing mass’ in Lismore, another town in Northern NSW, when an Aboriginal woman came up to him later and said, “I don’t want to make a nuisance of myself etc. … but I seem to be getting told you should go to Maclean”.

Now if a strange woman came up to you and said “… I think you ought to go to Woop Woop…”, you’d probably be a bit wary. But because he’d been primed by the very clear voice in the office about two months before he went. He ended up on some island in one of the nearby rivers which was used as a lock-up for aborigines in the early days of European settlement. It seems there was some unfinished spiritual business.

Now that voice came from somewhere. And he had no reason whatsoever to even consider Maclean two months before the “family healing mass”.

There’s a spiritual world out there whether you believe it or not.
 
Bob,

Thanks for those anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence is what materialists lack. However, it doesn’t persuade them to hear it from those who have had the experience.

I have also on three separate occasions felt communications from the dead.

When I was a boy, my great grandfather died during the night. I dreamed he had died. But he died two thousand miles from where I lived.

When my grandfather died about a year later, I saw a faint apparition of him sitting in a chair near me.

When my mother died, the clock on my fireplace mantle stopped at the hour of her death. I didn’t notice it for several hours. Later I tried to wind it up, but it was broken.

None of these incidents is proof absolute of an afterlife. But God manages to hint now and then that He is there for us. Even the atheists and agnostics who visit this website are guided here by the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. The devil’s only recourse is tempting them to believe that we are the fools, not they.:rolleyes:
 
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