The dilemma of Jesus as God

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Bahman said:
He has foreknowledge yet he is trapped in a situation that everything is fixed, so called foreknowledge or future. Hence, he could not move a stone when he knows it has to be there using his foreknowledge.
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The whole purpose of the Incarnation was that God wanted to show his love for us by living exactly like we do. So why would he want to move a stone he knew he was going to make him stumble? He wanted to suffer as man suffers to show how much he loved us and to make amends for the sin of men. I don’t see a conflict or dilemma at all. Don’t you think he ever banged his thumb in his step fathers work shop? Don’t you think got stung by a bee, or skinned his knee as a child? He came here to live as men do, why should he remove all the obsticles he knew were there?

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The whole purpose of the Incarnation was that God wanted to show his love for us by living exactly like we do. So why would he want to move a stone he knew he was going to make him stumble? He wanted to suffer as man suffers to show how much he loved us and to make amends for the sin of men. I don’t see a conflict or dilemma at all. Don’t you think he ever banged his thumb in his step fathers work shop? Don’t you think got stung by a bee, or skinned his knee as a child? He came here to live as men do, why should he remove all the obsticles he knew were there?

Linus2nd
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Could we please we focus on subject matter? There is a dilemma here. Do you think that foreknowledge can cause problem when a person with human nature does own it. Consider the example I provided. A stone is there and has to be there because foreknowledge say so. So either you can move the stone which means that foreknowledge is wrong or you cannot move it which means that you are disable to do anything.
 
Bahman said:
Could we please we focus on subject matter? There is a dilemma here. Do you think that foreknowledge can cause problem when a person with human nature does own it. Consider the example I provided. A stone is there and has to be there because foreknowledge say so. So either you can move the stone which means that foreknowledge is wrong or you cannot move it which means that you are disable to do anything.
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You have to keep in mind that Jesus Christ has two natures. His human nature would not know every thing in his future ( i.e. the stone which lay in his path he was on ), only those things related to his mission. And that would not include the daily routine of daily human existence. His Divine Nature would know about the stone. So it may not have been the will of the Divine Nature to inform the human nature about the stone. Therefore there would be no dilemma for either the human nature or the Divine Nature. That is the way I see it. Of course you are free to disagree. But I think I am correct. We also have to keep in mind that Jesus’ human nature was 100% committed to the will of the Divine Nature, even when the Divine Nature kept the human nature in the dark about some things coming in the future. Since it was the will of the Divine Nature that the human nature live like a man and learn from daily experiences like ordinary men, it seems unlikely the Divine Nature would will to inform the human about the stone in the path.

Pax Christi
Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
You have to keep in mind that Jesus Christ has two natures. His human nature would not know every thing in his future ( i.e. the stone which lay in his path he was on ), only those things related to his mission. And that would not include the daily routine of daily human existence. His Divine Nature would know about the stone. So it may not have been the will of the Divine Nature to inform the human nature about the stone. Therefore there would be no dilemma for either the human nature or the Divine Nature. That is the way I see it. Of course you are free to disagree. But I think I am correct. We also have to keep in mind that Jesus’ human nature was 100% committed to the will of the Divine Nature, even when the Divine Nature kept the human nature in the dark about some things coming in the future. Since it was the will of the Divine Nature that the human nature live like a man and learn from daily experiences like ordinary men, it seems unlikely the Divine Nature would will to inform the human about the stone in the path.

Pax Christi
Linus2nd
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So he don’t have two fused natures!? I think you don’t know what you are talking about, keep striving on the wrong belief.
 
Bahman said:
So he don’t have two fused natures!? I think you don’t know what you are talking about, keep striving on the wrong belief.
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Of course you are not expected to accept what I have said. But what I have said is in perfect accord with Catholic teaching and theology.

From the Cathechism. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1J.HTM

IN BRIEF

479 At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

481 Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.

482 Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

483 The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.

You can read a more complete teatment of the Person of Jesus Christ by reading all of article 3, and even article 1 and 2.

I think you will agee that I do know what I am talking about. It is simply that you disagree. I do think you will agree that from a Catholic perspective there is no dilemma.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Of course you are not expected to accept what I have said. But what I have said is in perfect accord with Catholic teaching and theology.

From the Cathechism. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1J.HTM

IN BRIEF

479 At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

481 Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.

482 Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

483 The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.

You can read a more complete teatment of the Person of Jesus Christ by reading all of article 3, and even article 1 and 2.

I think you will agee that I do know what I am talking about. It is simply that you disagree. I do think you will agree that from a Catholic perspective there is no dilemma.

Linus2nd
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Well, so use these when are facing divine justice.
 
davidv said:
How is this a meaningful response to what was presented?
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It means that I gave up discussing common sense thing with him, at least in this very specific topic. Doubt is the door toward divine justice. We will know how much we, including myself, are wrong when we face the divine justice.
 
Bahman said:
Well, so use these when are facing divine justice.
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These are not things we " do " anything with. They tell us who it is that we love, worship, adore, and serve. God is a person we communicate with and who communicates with us - through love.

Linus2nd
 
Bahman said:
It means that I gave up discussing common sense thing with him, at least in this very specific topic. Doubt is the door toward divine justice. We will know how much we, including myself, are wrong when we face the divine justice.
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God’s mercy is as infinite as his justice. He never condemns an honest effort, even if we are wrong through no fault of our own.

Linus2nd
 
Bahman said:
Although He was not omniscient on earth He knew many things we shall never know.
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430 Jesus means in Hebrew: “God saves.” At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission.18 Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, “will save his people from their sins”.19 In Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men.
431 In the history of salvation God was not content to deliver Israel "out of the house of bondage"20 by bringing them out of Egypt. He also saves them from their sin. Because sin is always an offence against God, only he can forgive it.21 For this reason Israel, becoming more and more aware of the universality of sin, will no longer be able to seek salvation except by invoking the name of the Redeemer God.22
432 The name “Jesus” signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation,23 so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."24
433 The name of the Savior God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. The mercy seat was the place of God’s presence.25 When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom “God put forward as an expiation by his blood”, he means that in Christ’s humanity "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself."26
434 Jesus’ Resurrection glorifies the name of the Savior God, for from that time on it is the name of Jesus that fully manifests the supreme power of the “name which is above every name”.27 The evil spirits fear his name; in his name his disciples perform miracles, for the Father grants all they ask in this name.28
435 The name of Jesus is at the heart of Christian prayer. All liturgical prayers conclude with the words “through our Lord Jesus Christ”. The Hail Mary reaches its high point in the words “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” The Eastern prayer of the heart, the Jesus Prayer, says: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Many Christians, such as St. Joan of Arc, have died with the one word “Jesus” on their lips.
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tonyrey said:
430 Jesus means in Hebrew: “God saves.” At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission.18 Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, “will save his people from their sins”.19 In Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men.
431 In the history of salvation God was not content to deliver Israel "out of the house of bondage"20 by bringing them out of Egypt. He also saves them from their sin. Because sin is always an offence against God, only he can forgive it.21 For this reason Israel, becoming more and more aware of the universality of sin, will no longer be able to seek salvation except by invoking the name of the Redeemer God.22
432 The name “Jesus” signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation,23 so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."24
433 The name of the Savior God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. The mercy seat was the place of God’s presence.25 When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom “God put forward as an expiation by his blood”, he means that in Christ’s humanity "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself."26
434 Jesus’ Resurrection glorifies the name of the Savior God, for from that time on it is the name of Jesus that fully manifests the supreme power of the “name which is above every name”.27 The evil spirits fear his name; in his name his disciples perform miracles, for the Father grants all they ask in this name.28
435 The name of Jesus is at the heart of Christian prayer. All liturgical prayers conclude with the words “through our Lord Jesus Christ”. The Hail Mary reaches its high point in the words “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” The Eastern prayer of the heart, the Jesus Prayer, says: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Many Christians, such as St. Joan of Arc, have died with the one word “Jesus” on their lips.
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Thanks. But what I was looking for is whether he has foreknowledge. Yes or no?
 
Bahman said:
Thanks. But what I was looking for is whether he has foreknowledge. Yes or no?
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He was like us in all things but sin while He was on earth and therefore not omniscient but like the prophets He had some foreknowledge.

Why did you write “Honesty +1, wrong thought -1” ?
 
Bahman said:
  1. God knows everything
  2. Future is fixed
  3. God knows fixed future
  4. God incarnates as Jesus
  5. Jesus can only have access to what is changeable
  6. There is only one option available on the spot since future is fixed
  7. Hence, Jesus cannot decide
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According to your 1 thru double 6, we would also not be able to decide.

Could be that God is beyond your comprehension and not just yours and Jesus had to decide, just as we have to decide.

God is either Omniscient or God isn’t, it isn’t up to whether we can comprehend Omniscience that God is or isn’t Omniscient.
 
Bahman said:
Killing or murdering is bad and as far as I know self-defense with outcome killing is not allowed in Christianity. Jesus said:“If someone slap on your face then turn your face”. Sorry I don’t remember the exact phrase.
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As far as, “Killing or murdering is bad and as far as I know self-defense with outcome killing is not allowed in Christianity.”

You’re wrong.

There are some “Christians” who would agree with what you say but it does not hold true for all who consider themself “Christian”.
 
Bahman said:
No, only a agent who doesn’t know the future can choose. Was Jesus God?
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Jesus was God and Man.

I, personally, happen to believe that Jesus, voluntarily, gave up His Omni’s in the Incarnation and where it says in the bible that Jesus was like us in all ways except sin, I take literally.
 
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