The dilemma of Jesus as God

[Tom_Baum]

1. Yes.
2. No. Some things may be fixed but not all. God has probably fixed the way evolution has progressed in nature, the motions of the heavens, the seasons, things like that. What has not been fixed is the effects our free choices effect ourselves, our neighbors, society as a whole, even the history of nations, even the effects our actions will have on nature. You see of course that it would be impossible to say with certitude what has been fixed and what has not.
3. God knows all that I have explained in ’ 2 ’ above, the fixed and the undetermined.
4. Yes.
5. No. Jesus Christ, as man, knows all the Father wished to tell him. But as God, he knows all that the Father knows.
6. Wrong because the future is not fixed.
7. Jesus Christ had a human nature and a Divine Nature. In both natures he was completely free.

• Earlier today I gave you a link, I hope you will start studying it and make good use of it.
  But you won’t finish it in a day or even a week I recommended some sections but you can read others as well. It is time you start getting to know our thinking better.

Linus2nd

Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t.

Just because God knowing everything about everything is beyond our understanding has absolutely no bearing on God’s Omnicience.

Are you saying that God is only Omniscient about some things and not others?

“Even before a word is on my tongue, LORD, you know it all.”

Seems to be written that God knows our thoughts before we even have them, do you think that God knows our actions, also, even before we do them?

Just because God knows what we WILL do, does not make us “puppets on a string”, even God’s string, just means that God is a “little bigger” than our comprehension can comprehend.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes. Only some things are fixed. God’s foreknowledge is fixed. There is nothing he does not know, even the results of our free actions and how he will deal with those so that his over all plan will be accomplished.

There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge.

When Jesus was conceived, God the Son assumed his human nature. So Jesus Christ had two natures, one human, the other Divine. But he was only one person, the Person of God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. But the Second Person of the Trinity gets his knowledge and power from the Father, and the Holy Spirit gets his knowledge and power from them both.

Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation. But God the Son did. It was only the human nature of Jesus that depended on the Father for some of his knowledge. But he did not depend on him for all his knowledge. Like all men, he had to learn the ways of men He had to learn how to walk and talk, how to do all the things that normal people did in their day to day living. But at the same time he knew the things related to his mission as Redeemer that the Father wished to tell him. But as the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ knew everything God the Father did. So we make a distinction between his human, acquired knowledge and his Divine, infused knowledge. But no matter what Jesus did, said, thought, experienced, he did it all as the Second Person of the Trinity, made Incarnate in Jesus, the Christ. You can read the Catechism at the appropriate places…

The future is not fixed, only some of it. God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with our future, it does not determine it, we do. It is just that God knows what we will do. Did you read Psalm 138 I posted on one of your posts? Read it again and notice how many times David refers to God’s foreknowledge.

Remember what I said above about the Person of Jesus Christ. It is the Second Person of the Trinity. In the life of Jesus, it is the Second Person of the Trinity who does all things. But he does them through two natures, the human and the Divine. And the reason he cannot sin is the fact that from the moment of his conception he saw God Face to Face, God dwelt in him " visibly, " in his intellect. One who sees God that way sees him as we will see him in heaven. It is " burning, " all consuming presence which makes sin impossible, only love can survive that fire.

I won’t hold my breath, but I do hope.

Linus2nd

You seem to say that God knows everything and God doesn’t know everything.

Seems to me that you have come up with one of those “dilemmas” that even God is incapable of doing.

 

[Bahman]

As far as, “Killing or murdering is bad and as far as I know self-defense with outcome killing is not allowed in Christianity.”

You’re wrong.

There are some “Christians” who would agree with what you say but it does not hold true for all who consider themself “Christian”.

Then why Jesus being God allowed to be killed!? Are you still certain?

 

[Bahman]

According to your 1 thru double 6, we would also not be able to decide.

Could be that God is beyond your comprehension and not just yours and Jesus had to decide, just as we have to decide.

God is either Omniscient or God isn’t, it isn’t up to whether we can comprehend Omniscience that God is or isn’t Omniscient.

No, we can decide because we don’t know future.

 

[Bahman]

Jesus was God and Man.

I, personally, happen to believe that Jesus, voluntarily, gave up His Omni’s in the Incarnation and where it says in the bible that Jesus was like us in all ways except sin, I take literally.

This is subject to question whether a being can give up her/his nature. To me a person dies permanently when s/he gives up his nature. But anyhow, why he could not sin if he was a human being? I know the story of original sin. But Jesus has potential to sin, whether he has never sinned is doesn’t mean sinless.

 

[tonyrey]

He was like us in all things but sin while He was on earth and therefore not omniscient but like the prophets He had some foreknowledge.

Being human doesn’t exclude being divine. You are presumptuously imposing limitations on the Creator of the universe! For God all things are possible…

Why did you write “Honesty +1, wrong thought -1” ?

How do you score wrong thought?

God transcends arithmetic…

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t.

Just because God knowing everything about everything is beyond our understanding has absolutely no bearing on God’s Omnicience.

" Omniscience " means God knows everything, even what will happen in the future.

Are you saying that God is only Omniscient about some things and not others?

I am saying that Jesus’ human nature knew only what his Divine Nature told him. His Divine Nature, of course, knew everything.

“Even before a word is on my tongue, LORD, you know it all.”

Seems to be written that God knows our thoughts before we even have them, do you think that God knows our actions, also, even before we do them?

Agreed.

Just because God knows what we WILL do, does not make us “puppets on a string”, even God’s string, just means that God is a “little bigger” than our comprehension can comprehend.

How did I suggest that we are " puppets on a string? " God’s nature is absolutely beyond our comprehension. We can know certain true things about his nature but we still cannot comprehend his nature. This is what the Church teaches and what St. Thomas teaches.

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[James82]

My only thought here is that God created logic, therefore it does not apply to Him.

I’m on board with this. What continually amazes me in theological/philosophical debate is the insistence of certain parties that such and such ‘is impossible’ for God to do.

Trying to compartmentalize God into function based on experience and revelation is neither the point of human experience or revelation

As far as I’m concerned, the notions of time and space are constructs created by God in order for us to function as He saw fit.

With the exception of the Predestination of the Elect, I do not believe the Church wanders too far into such areas of mystery.

 

[Tom_Baum]

No, we can decide because we don’t know future.

You said, “No, we can decide because we don’t know future”, I agree that we decide and I also believe that God knows everything that we decide even before we decide it but that does not make us “puppets on a string”.

It is my belief that Jesus did NOT know the future of His life either.

As I have already said on here, I believe that Jesus, voluntarily, gave up His Omnis in the Incarnation, including Omniscience, so Jesus did not know everything.

Jesus had to live His life and make decisions like the rest of us humans.

Jesus giving up His Omnis, voluntarily, is why I believe that the statement concerning Jesus, “He was like us in All ways except sin”, is quite literal.

 

[Bahman]

You said, “No, we can decide because we don’t know future”, I agree that we decide and I also believe that God knows everything that we decide even before we decide it but that does not make us “puppets on a string”.

It is my belief that Jesus did NOT know the future of His life either.

As I have already said on here, I believe that Jesus, voluntarily, gave up His Omnis in the Incarnation, including Omniscience, so Jesus did not know everything.

Jesus had to live His life and make decisions like the rest of us humans.

Jesus giving up His Omnis, voluntarily, is why I believe that the statement concerning Jesus, “He was like us in All ways except sin”, is quite literal.

That is an alternative if he could give up his divinity. I will think of that to see whether it is logically possible or not.

 

[Tom_Baum]

" Omniscience " means God knows everything, even what will happen in the future.

I agree.

But then you wrote, “The future is not fixed, only some of it. God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with our future, it does not determine it, we do. It is just that God knows what we will do. Did you read Psalm 138 I posted on one of your posts? Read it again and notice how many times David refers to God’s foreknowledge.”

How can there be just one future, so to speak, since God knows everything and yet it not be “fixed”?

“Fixed” meaning that God knows just what it will be, how?

That is why I wrote, “Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t.”, there is NO such thing as “partial Omniscience”.

I am saying that Jesus’ human nature knew only what his Divine Nature told him. His Divine Nature, of course, knew everything.

This might be a nice statement and it might even be a nice theological statement but, to put it mildly, it is meaningless to me.

I have said and I repeat that I believe that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Omnis, volutarily, in the Incarnation, in other words, I am trying to put into understandable human language what I believe rather than beat around the bush theologically.

I am NOT saying that it is true, I am saying it is what I have pondered on and come to believe.

Agreed.

If you agree then the future is “fixed” since God knows everything.

How did I suggest that we are " puppets on a string? " God’s nature is absolutely beyond our comprehension. We can know certain true things about his nature but we still cannot comprehend his nature. This is what the Church teaches and what St. Thomas teaches.

This is my way of saying that even tho God knows ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that All will do, this does not mean that we are “following a script”.

As far as, “We can know certain true things about his nature but we still cannot comprehend his nature.”.

I believe that we can only “know” what God reveals to us about God’s Nature.

We can “believe” what other people tell us about “God’s Nature” but this is different from “knowing”.

God Is a Being of Love, in that Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

The staement “GOD IS LOVE” is quite literal and it could be written quite truly as “LOVE IS GOD”.

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[Tom_Baum]

That is an alternative if he could give up his divinity. I will think of that to see whether it is logically possible or not.

I did NOT say that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Divinity, I said that He gave up His Omnis.

The PURE ESSENCE of God is that God Is a Being of Love.

God’s Omnis are merely attributes of God.

 

[Bahman]

I did NOT say that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Divinity, I said that He gave up His Omnis.

Good point. But omnipotence is the utility of omniscience hence he has to give up his omnipotence too.

The PURE ESSENCE of God is that God Is a Being of Love.

No, consciousness is the pure essence of God, Love however sits on the center, place of divine justice holding power on one hand and knowledge on the other hand.

God’s Omnis are merely attributes of God.

Thanks. That I know.

 

[Tomdstone]

I did NOT say that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Divinity, I said that He gave up His Omnis.

The PURE ESSENCE of God is that God Is a Being of Love.

God’s Omnis are merely attributes of God.

Seems problematical to me to say that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Omniscience.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I agree.

But then you wrote, “The future is not fixed, only some of it. God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with our future, it does not determine it, we do. It is just that God knows what we will do. Did you read Psalm 138 I posted on one of your posts? Read it again and notice how many times David refers to God’s foreknowledge.”

How can there be just one future, so to speak, since God knows everything and yet it not be “fixed”?

“Fixed” meaning that God knows just what it will be, how?

That is why I wrote, “Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t.”, there is NO such thing as “partial Omniscience”.

This might be a nice statement and it might even be a nice theological statement but, to put it mildly, it is meaningless to me.

I have said and I repeat that I believe that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Omnis, volutarily, in the Incarnation, in other words, I am trying to put into understandable human language what I believe rather than beat around the bush theologically.

I am NOT saying that it is true, I am saying it is what I have pondered on and come to believe.

If you agree then the future is “fixed” since God knows everything.

This is my way of saying that even tho God knows ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that All will do, this does not mean that we are “following a script”.

As far as, “We can know certain true things about his nature but we still cannot comprehend his nature.”.

I believe that we can only “know” what God reveals to us about God’s Nature.

We can “believe” what other people tell us about “God’s Nature” but this is different from “knowing”.

God Is a Being of Love, in that Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

The staement “GOD IS LOVE” is quite literal and it could be written quite truly as “LOVE IS GOD”.

Pax
Linus2nd

Well, believe whatever you want, no skin off my nose.

Linus2nd

 

[Tom_Baum]

Seems problematical to me to say that the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Omniscience.

Why?

Seems problematic to me for God-Incarnate to be even close to “like us” if He did NOT give uip His Omniscience in the Incarnation, doesn’t it to you?

Wasn’t just Omniscience that God-Incarnate gave up.

Does it seem “problematic” to you that God Almighty put Himself at our mercy, at least some of us, in the Incarnation?

Could be that God did a lot more than many seem to think God capable of doing in the Incarnation.

Not only was God-Incarnate completely helpless at His birth but I believe that He was just as empty-headed as the rest of us at His birth.

 

[Bahman]

Why?

Seems problematic to me for God-Incarnate to be even close to “like us” if He did NOT give uip His Omniscience in the Incarnation, doesn’t it to you?

Wasn’t just Omniscience that God-Incarnate gave up.

Does it seem “problematic” to you that God Almighty put Himself at our mercy, at least some of us, in the Incarnation?

Could be that God did a lot more than many seem to think God capable of doing in the Incarnation.

Not only was God-Incarnate completely helpless at His birth but I believe that He was just as empty-headed as the rest of us at His birth.

What you said makes very sense.

 

[Tomdstone]

Why?

Because according to the Catholic creed, Jesus is
God from God
Light from Light
True God from True God.
This is all written with a capital letter G not a lower case letter g.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Because according to the Catholic creed, Jesus is
God from God
Light from Light
True God from True God.
This is all written with a capital letter G not a lower case letter g.

Jesus also died a physical death, among other things, does that mean that He is not “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God”?

I don’t know about you but I am NOT Omniscient, Omnipotent nor Omnipresent and if Jesus were truly like me in every way except sin, how could He have possibly been Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent?

It doesn’t only say that Jesus was like us in all ways except sin but also that He “grew in grace and stature before man and God”, or words to that effect, how could anyone “grow in grace and stature before man and God” if they were already Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent?

I happen to believe that Jesus lived His life, not that he played a preconceived, totally known by Himself part while merely looking as if He were living His life.

 

[Tomdstone]

Jesus also died a physical death, among other things, does that mean that He is not “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God”?

I don’t know about you but I am NOT Omniscient, Omnipotent nor Omnipresent and if Jesus were truly like me in every way except sin, how could He have possibly been Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent?

It doesn’t only say that Jesus was like us in all ways except sin but also that He “grew in grace and stature before man and God”, or words to that effect, how could anyone “grow in grace and stature before man and God” if they were already Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent?

I happen to believe that Jesus lived His life, not that he played a preconceived, totally known by Himself part while merely looking as if He were living His life.

So Jesus was not God?