The dilemma of Jesus as God

[Bahman]

We as humans have free will. God isn’t making them for us. We make choices. Those choices have options. One choice has one result, another choice another result.

That is correct. So?

 

[cena]

That is correct. So?

You said God only has one act. But we choose our futures and not God

 

[Bahman]

You said God only has one act. But we choose our futures and not God

I know it is confusion, but knowing doesn’t involve determinism. You make one choice at a time and God knows it so his master plan considers everything. I have to say that this is not my system of belief but yours so I can keep my objections.

 

[cena]

I know it is confusion, but knowing doesn’t involve determinism. You make one choice at a time and God knows it so his master plan considers everything. I have Ito say that this is not my system of belief but yours so I can keep my objections.

I thought you said the future cannot change or have possibilities. God knows what will happen and what could have happened if different choices were made

 

[davidv]

I know it is confusion, but knowing doesn’t involve determinism. You make one choice at a time and God knows it so his master plan considers everything. I have to say that this is not my system of belief but yours so I can keep my objections.

What you have said is not our system of beliefs. So, you have argued against a straw man. You have grossly misinterpreted it.

Your objections do not make sense.

 

[Bahman]

I thought you said the future cannot change or have possibilities. God knows what will happen and what could have happened if different choices were made

That is correct. How he could know the future if it is subject to change? How God could be perfect? This questions omniscient. So God is omniscient and knows future with full certainty. He knows our decisions as well and there is no problem in your system of belief as far as I understood from what other people claims. Perhaps, you should read a little or wait for others to come here.

 

[Bahman]

What you have said is not our system of beliefs. So, you have argued against a straw man. You have grossly misinterpreted it.

Your objections do not make sense.

So we wait for Linus2nd.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

1. God knows everything
2. Future is fixed
3. God knows fixed future
4. God incarnates as Jesus
5. Jesus can only have access to what is changeable
6. There is only one option available on the spot since future is fixed
7. Hence, Jesus cannot decide

1. Yes.
2. No. Some things may be fixed but not all. God has probably fixed the way evolution has progressed in nature, the motions of the heavens, the seasons, things like that. What has not been fixed is the effects our free choices effect ourselves, our neighbors, society as a whole, even the history of nations, even the effects our actions will have on nature. You see of course that it would be impossible to say with certitude what has been fixed and what has not.
3. God knows all that I have explained in ’ 2 ’ above, the fixed and the undetermined.
4. Yes.
5. No. Jesus Christ, as man, knows all the Father wished to tell him. But as God, he knows all that the Father knows.
6. Wrong because the future is not fixed.
7. Jesus Christ had a human nature and a Divine Nature. In both natures he was completely free.

• Earlier today I gave you a link, I hope you will start studying it and make good use of it.
  But you won’t finish it in a day or even a week I recommended some sections but you can read others as well. It is time you start getting to know our thinking better.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

1. Yes.

Good.

1. No. Some things may be fixed but not all. God has probably fixed the way evolution has progressed in nature, the motions of the heavens, the seasons, things like that. What has not been fixed is the effects our free choices effect ourselves, our neighbors, society as a whole, even the history of nations, even the effects our actions will have on nature. You see of course that it would be impossible to say with certitude what has been fixed and what has not.

Are you sure? How about God’s foreknowledge then? Is that fixed or not?

1. God knows all that I have explained in ’ 2 ’ above, the fixed and the undetermined.

So, God knows everything. Am I correct or not? There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge?

1. Yes.

Good.

1. No. Jesus Christ, as man, knows all the Father wished to tell him. But as God, he knows all that the Father knows.

Now we are having some problems. He was God before incarnation? How he could depend on Father after incarnation? Aren’t they one like three spirits in one body? What do you mean with if Father wish? God can only have one eternal act. More?

1. Wrong because the future is not fixed.

Future is fixed because God has foreknowledge, and there cannot be two foreknowledges.

1. Jesus Christ had a human nature and a Divine Nature. In both natures he was completely free.

He is not omniscient nor omnipotent, so what is left from divine nature? He has human nature but he cannot sin. What you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

• Earlier today I gave you a link, I hope you will start studying it and make good use of it.
  But you won’t finish it in a day or even a week I recommended some sections but you can read others as well. It is time you start getting to know our thinking better.

Linus2nd

Thanks for that. I will finish it in a blink if I find the time.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Good.

Are you sure? How about God’s foreknowledge then? Is that fixed or not?

Yes. Only some things are fixed. God’s foreknowledge is fixed. There is nothing he does not know, even the results of our free actions and how he will deal with those so that his over all plan will be accomplished.

So, God knows everything. Am I correct or not? There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge?

There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge.

Now we are having some problems. He was God before incarnation? How he could depend on Father after incarnation? Aren’t they one like three spirits in one body? What do you mean with if Father wish? God can only have one eternal act. More?

When Jesus was conceived, God the Son assumed his human nature. So Jesus Christ had two natures, one human, the other Divine. But he was only one person, the Person of God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. But the Second Person of the Trinity gets his knowledge and power from the Father, and the Holy Spirit gets his knowledge and power from them both.

Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation. But God the Son did. It was only the human nature of Jesus that depended on the Father for some of his knowledge. But he did not depend on him for all his knowledge. Like all men, he had to learn the ways of men He had to learn how to walk and talk, how to do all the things that normal people did in their day to day living. But at the same time he knew the things related to his mission as Redeemer that the Father wished to tell him. But as the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ knew everything God the Father did. So we make a distinction between his human, acquired knowledge and his Divine, infused knowledge. But no matter what Jesus did, said, thought, experienced, he did it all as the Second Person of the Trinity, made Incarnate in Jesus, the Christ. You can read the Catechism at the appropriate places…

Future is fixed because God has foreknowledge, and there cannot be two foreknowledges.

The future is not fixed, only some of it. God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with our future, it does not determine it, we do. It is just that God knows what we will do. Did you read Psalm 138 I posted on one of your posts? Read it again and notice how many times David refers to God’s foreknowledge.

He is not omniscient nor omnipotent, so what is left from divine nature? He has human nature but he cannot sin. What you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

Remember what I said above about the Person of Jesus Christ. It is the Second Person of the Trinity. In the life of Jesus, it is the Second Person of the Trinity who does all things. But he does them through two natures, the human and the Divine. And the reason he cannot sin is the fact that from the moment of his conception he saw God Face to Face, God dwelt in him " visibly, " in his intellect. One who sees God that way sees him as we will see him in heaven. It is " burning, " all consuming presence which makes sin impossible, only love can survive that fire.

Thanks for that. I will finish it in a blink if I find the time.

I won’t hold my breath, but I do hope.

Linus2nd

 

[cena]

Good.

Are you sure? How about God’s foreknowledge then? Is that fixed or not?

So, God knows everything. Am I correct or not? There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge?

Good.

Now we are having some problems. He was God before incarnation? How he could depend on Father after incarnation? Aren’t they one like three spirits in one body? What do you mean with if Father wish? God can only have one eternal act. More?

Future is fixed because God has foreknowledge, and there cannot be two foreknowledges.

He is not omniscient nor omnipotent, so what is left from divine nature? He has human nature but he cannot sin. What you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

Thanks for that. I will finish it in a blink if I find the time.

He had his divine nature at the same time as his human nature. He could stop storms with just his will and he raised people from the dead. He could see the future and the sins of people.

 

[Bahman]

Yes. Only some things are fixed. God’s foreknowledge is fixed. There is nothing he does not know, even the results of our free actions and how he will deal with those so that his over all plan will be accomplished.

Good. So God’s foreknowledge is fixed.

There is no uncertainty in God’s foreknowledge.

Good. That is what I meant.

When Jesus was conceived, God the Son assumed his human nature. So Jesus Christ had two natures, one human, the other Divine. But he was only one person, the Person of God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. But the Second Person of the Trinity gets his knowledge and power from the Father, and the Holy Spirit gets his knowledge and power from them both.

Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation. But God the Son did. It was only the human nature of Jesus that depended on the Father for some of his knowledge. But he did not depend on him for all his knowledge. Like all men, he had to learn the ways of men He had to learn how to walk and talk, how to do all the things that normal people did in their day to day living. But at the same time he knew the things related to his mission as Redeemer that the Father wished to tell him. But as the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ knew everything God the Father did. So we make a distinction between his human, acquired knowledge and his Divine, infused knowledge. But no matter what Jesus did, said, thought, experienced, he did it all as the Second Person of the Trinity, made Incarnate in Jesus, the Christ. You can read the Catechism at the appropriate places…

This is very long story. But thanks for it. The key question is whether Jesus has divine nature or not? There are a few main attributes in divine nature, namely omniscience, omnipotence, etc. If Jesus has the divine nature then he has foreknowledge, if he doesn’t he doesn’t have divine nature. Does he have omnipotence? He has human nature since he couldn’t be omnipresent. So we are left with no divine nature.

The future is not fixed, only some of it. God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with our future, it does not determine it, we do. It is just that God knows what we will do. Did you read Psalm 138 I posted on one of your posts? Read it again and notice how many times David refers to God’s foreknowledge.

For God sake. That I know. God has foreknowledge and that is what I mean with the phrase that future is fixed. We don’t know future then we can do this or that either way around, whatever we do God knows it and there is no contradiction.

Remember what I said above about the Person of Jesus Christ. It is the Second Person of the Trinity. In the life of Jesus, it is the Second Person of the Trinity who does all things. But he does them through two natures, the human and the Divine. And the reason he cannot sin is the fact that from the moment of his conception he saw God Face to Face, God dwelt in him " visibly, " in his intellect. One who sees God that way sees him as we will see him in heaven. It is " burning, " all consuming presence which makes sin impossible, only love can survive that fire.
I won’t hold my breath, but I do hope.

Linus2nd

What divine attribute has Jesus got?

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus was not omniscient when He was on earth because He was like us in all things but sin. Even if you know what you are going to do it doesn’t mean you are compelled to do it before you decide to do it.

Although He was not omniscient on earth He knew many things we shall never know.

How they could be one, trinity?

Perfect love is the source of perfect unity.

 

[Bahman]

Although He was not omniscient on earth He knew many things we shall never know.

Does he have any divine attribute? What is it?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Good. So God’s foreknowledge is fixed.

Yes.

This is very long story. But thanks for it. The key question is whether Jesus has divine nature or not? There are a few main attributes in divine nature, namely omniscience, omnipotence, etc. If Jesus has the divine nature then he has foreknowledge, if he doesn’t he doesn’t have divine nature. Does he have omnipotence? He has human nature since he couldn’t be omnipresent. So we are left with no divine nature.

When we speak of Jesus we have to keep in mind that he had two natures, one human and one Divine, but only one Person, the Divine Person of the Son of God. Jesus’ human nature had foreknowledge of the future only in so far as his Divine Nature informed him of various future events. For example, the Divine Nature of the Son informed him of all the events that were to take place in his life relative to his mission as the Redeemer of mankind. He also informed him that he had a Divine Nature as well as a human nature - he know that he was the Second Divine Person of the Trinity. And he knew all the mysteries of God as well and all the powers he possessed. But some things he did not know. For example, as man, he did not know when the end of the world would come. But as God he did know. So we have to always distinguish between his human and his Divine Natures. You have to remember that he functioned as a person just like we do. So when he did something, it was God doing it. And since he was God, he had all the attributes of God. You can’t separate the two natures into two persons. There is only one Person and that Person is God, so all the attributes of God are in the Person of Jesus Christ.

For God sake. That I know. God has foreknowledge and that is what I mean with the phrase that future is fixed. We don’t know future then we can do this or that either way around, whatever we do God knows it and there is no contradiction.

Sorry, your phrasing was a little awkward. Glad you understand.

What divine attribute has Jesus got?

You have to keep in mind that there was only one person. It is the person who acts. We act as a person. The difference between us and Jesus is that we only have a human nature, so our person is human. But Jesus the Christ has two natures in one person and that person is God. So he has all the attributes of God the Father in his Person as the Son of God.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

Yes.

When we speak of Jesus we have to keep in mind that he had two natures, one human and one Divine, but only one Person, the Divine Person of the Son of God. Jesus’ human nature had foreknowledge of the future only in so far as his Divine Nature informed him of various future events. For example, the Divine Nature of the Son informed him of all the events that were to take place in his life relative to his mission as the Redeemer of mankind. He also informed him that he had a Divine Nature as well as a human nature - he know that he was the Second Divine Person of the Trinity. And he knew all the mysteries of God as well and all the powers he possessed. But some things he did not know. For example, as man, he did not know when the end of the world would come. But as God he did know. So we have to always distinguish between his human and his Divine Natures. You have to remember that he functioned as a person just like we do. So when he did something, it was God doing it. And since he was God, he had all the attributes of God. You can’t separate the two natures into two persons. There is only one Person and that Person is God, so all the attributes of God are in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Sorry, your phrasing was a little awkward. Glad you understand.

You have to keep in mind that there was only one person. It is the person who acts. We act as a person. The difference between us and Jesus is that we only have a human nature, so our person is human. But Jesus the Christ has two natures in one person and that person is God. So he has all the attributes of God the Father in his Person as the Son of God.

Linus2nd

You keep telling me that Jesus has divine nature! When I ask what divine nature, you bring the story of relation with father. So again, dose Jesus has a divine attributes? Yes, or no. And what is it?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You keep telling me that Jesus has divine nature! When I ask what divine nature, you bring the story of relation with father. So again, dose Jesus has a divine attributes? Yes, or no. And what is it?

Yes Jesus has Divine attributes, the same ones the Father has, because Jesus is God, Incarnated in time. But he has these attributes only since his Incarnation. Before the Incarnation the Son of God existed only as a Spiritual Person in the Essence of the Father.
But now, as God, Jesus has all the perfections and attributes of God. He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, he is Eternal, he is Pure Existence, he is the First Cause of all that exists, he is Pure Goodness and the cause of all that is good, he is Pure Love and the cause of all love and the only real object of our love, he is infinitely Merciful, Just, Kind, Provident, and much more, he is the End and Purpose of all that exists and ever existed or will exist, he guides the universe and sustains it in existence, and in him there is no evil.

Pax
Christi

 

[Bahman]

Yes Jesus has Divine attributes, the same ones the Father has, because Jesus is God, Incarnated in time. But he has these attributes only since his Incarnation. Before the Incarnation the Son of God existed only as a Spiritual Person in the Essence of the Father.
But now, as God, Jesus has all the perfections and attributes of God. He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, he is Eternal, he is Pure Existence, he is the First Cause of all that exists, he is Pure Goodness and the cause of all that is good, he is Pure Love and the cause of all love and the only real object of our love, he is infinitely Merciful, Just, Kind, Provident, and much more, he is the End and Purpose of all that exists and ever existed or will exist, he guides the universe and sustains it in existence, and in him there is no evil.

Pax
Christi

Great. Hence you have to deal with the dilemma which I raised. I can repeat it if you wish.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Great. Hence you have to deal with the dilemma which I raised. I can repeat it if you wish.

I don’t see a dilemma. Explain in your own words where the dilemma lays.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

I don’t see a dilemma. Explain in your own words where the dilemma lays.
Linus2nd

He has foreknowledge yet he is trapped in a situation that everything is fixed, so called foreknowledge or future. Hence, he could not move a stone when he knows it has to be there using his foreknowledge.