The disorder of homosexuality

[LisaA]

Curious. Are you a clinician who works with gay people?

One need not be a clinician to observe, nor does one need to be a clinician to read medical or scientific material that demonstrats as Elizabeth502 so clearly stated, the “artificial couple” will face physical and emotional issues because their relationship goes against nature. Unless you, Tsk and other homosexual advocates believe that males and females are identical, there is simply no way that a same sex pairing can avoid compromising the true male or female nature that is written in their DNA.

Whenever you use your body for something unintended by nature, there are adverse consequences. This is not limited to sexual matters but the same result can be seen when you eat toxic food, inhale or ingest mind and body altering substances or even decide that your fist makes a great hammer.

Homosexuals and their advocates are so determined to validate their practices that not only do they ignore the teachings of every legitimate faith tradition, they ignore how this practices violates the laws of nature.

As the saying goes, the truth will out.

That being said, we should all have compassion for those tangled in the web of same sex attraction. It is a cross to bear that no one would ask for. As Elizabeth502 said, the ‘happy face’ that we see on TV or in the pop media, masks the inner torment that this affliction creates in their lives.

Lisa

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

…]the ‘happy face’ that we see on TV or in the pop media, masks the inner torment that this affliction creates in their lives.

Some quick questions on this inner torment:

1–Is it present in same sex attracted folks by virtue of them being same sex attracted?
2–What is its nature?
3–How is it discerned?

I confess that I do not ask these questions without bias–I often suspect that otherwise well-meaning folks who claim that same sex attracted people are suffering from an inner torment are making the claim because it makes sense to them that they should be in pain. This is related to a phenomenon I’ve noticed on these forums: that it is important that same-sex attracted people be seen to be in pain in order for them to receive a particular measure of acceptance or validation. I find it a troubling but persistent phenomenon.

So if you could establish that this torment is a direct by-product of any given same sex attracted person’s same sex attraction and discuss the objective criteria by which this torment can be observed and measured in all same sex attracted folks, that would be great. Otherwise, I feel that this universal-inner-torment-in-same-sex-attracted-folks-by-virtue-of-their-same-sex-attraction idea is a destructive (perhaps piously motivated, but culturally propagated) fantasy.

Thanks!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[LisaA]

Grace & Peace!

Some quick questions on this inner torment:

1–Is it present in same sex attracted folks by virtue of them being same sex attracted?
2–What is its nature?
3–How is it discerned?

I confess that I do not ask these questions without bias–I often suspect that otherwise well-meaning folks who claim that same sex attracted people are suffering from an inner torment are making the claim because it makes sense to them that they should be in pain. This is related to a phenomenon I’ve noticed on these forums: that it is important that same-sex attracted people be seen to be in pain in order for them to receive a particular measure of acceptance or validation. I find it a troubling but persistent phenomenon.

So if you could establish that this torment is a direct by-product of any given same sex attracted person’s same sex attraction and discuss the objective criteria by which this torment can be observed and measured in all same sex attracted folks, that would be great. Otherwise, I feel that this universal-inner-torment-in-same-sex-attracted-folks-by-virtue-of-their-same-sex-attraction idea is a destructive (perhaps piously motivated, but culturally propagated) fantasy.

Thanks!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

If you are truly interested in the answers you can easily find multiple studies demonstrating the higher incidence of drug use, suicide, mental illness in homosexual populations vis a vis the same demographic without this affliction.

Further if you are truly interested you can find multiple studies indicating the lower expected lifespan (particularly with respect to males) of homosexuals,the specific health issues related to practicing homosexual sex and other chronic and debilitating conditions related thereto. AIDS is the one that jumps to mind of course but there are many many other results. Using one’s reproductive system as an ailmentary canal or vice versa has consequences. One of the consequences is the sharp increase in oral cancers among non-smokeless tobacco users as well as STDs in the throat and mouth. I will let you use your imagination to make the correlation.

Our society is based on male/female pairings, and the resulting children. Not fitting in, not being able to have a normal family life has to be the source of anguish. This is true among heterosexuals as well. SIngle motherhood, shacking up, divorces all create emotional trauma. I am sure you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Look around.

My own experience with homosexuals (mostly males) is extensive. So no I am not “projecting” an anguish that I have not observed over and over and over. The life can seem glamorous and exciting when young and beautiful. It becomes less so as one grows up, grows old, becomes less desirable, and the incompleteness of this life becomes more and more apparent. They can “create” an artificial family by breeding or adopting a child. However the gifts that each sex brings to the relationship and to the raising of the child are missing.

THis is not to say that heterosexual relationships are without problems. But they are inherent in homosexual relationships. As the old commercial used to say…it’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.

Lisa

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

If you are truly interested in the answers you can easily find multiple studies demonstrating the higher incidence of drug use, suicide, mental illness in homosexual populations vis a vis the same demographic without this affliction.

The question must then be asked: are these higher incidences directly correlative to the presence of a same sex attraction, or are they functions of a nexus of things: age, culture, family background, poor choices, etc.?

Further if you are truly interested you can find multiple studies indicating the lower expected lifespan (particularly with respect to males) of homosexuals,the specific health issues related to practicing homosexual sex and other chronic and debilitating conditions related thereto. AIDS is the one that jumps to mind of course but there are many many other results. Using one’s reproductive system as an ailmentary canal or vice versa has consequences. One of the consequences is the sharp increase in oral cancers among non-smokeless tobacco users as well as STDs in the throat and mouth. I will let you use your imagination to make the correlation.

Are these health issues a function of being same sex attracted, or are they a function of poor behavioral choices (and when we’re speaking of oral sex, we’re not just speak of same sex attracted folks…)?

Our society is based on male/female pairings, and the resulting children. Not fitting in, not being able to have a normal family life has to be the source of anguish. This is true among heterosexuals as well. SIngle motherhood, shacking up, divorces all create emotional trauma. I am sure you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Look around.

The anguish of discovering that one does not fit into a particular understanding of normativity and the anguish of sin are not the same. What is normative and what is moral are not equivalent, despite our occasional desire to the contrary.

My own experience with homosexuals (mostly males) is extensive.

Being a homosexual male, I can say that my experience with homosexuals is quite extensive as well.

So no I am not “projecting” an anguish that I have not observed over and over and over.

I have yet to observe this anguish as directly correlating to same sex attraction qua same sex attraction.

The life can seem glamorous and exciting when young and beautiful. It becomes less so as one grows up, grows old, becomes less desirable, and the incompleteness of this life becomes more and more apparent.

A decadent or debauched culture, whether homosexual or heterosexual, will inevitably fail to produce the human relationships needed for human beings to flourish. If one has invested one’s life in such a culture, one cannot help but be disappointed when such a culture fails to bear the fruit one needs in order to grow as a human being.

THis is not to say that heterosexual relationships are without problems. But they are inherent in homosexual relationships.

All homosexual relationships? This is why I asked for objective criteria by which specific same-sex-attraction torment can be measured and observed in all same sex attracted people. For instance, I know of a number of homosexual relationships in which evidence for this specific torment (and the pathologies you’ve mentioned as indicative of it) is lacking and in which the folks in the relationship appear to be flourishing (growing in love and grace) because of the relationship and in ways directly analogous to heterosexual relationships. Saying that torment, anguish, or problems are an *inherent *part of the fabric of their relationship by dint of their mutual same-sex-attraction would be conjectural fantasy at best, slander at worst.

Would it be possible for you to provide the sort of diagnostic tools needed to prove that anguish or torment (presumably represented by a regularly occuring system of pathologies) of one sort or another is a universal and observable characteristic of same sex attraction qua same sex attracion?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[tskrobacz]

I find the use of “institutional” Church mostly means that one rejects Church authority in matters of sexual morality.

Not at all…it simply recognizes that the Church has both an “institutional” component (eg. the business and human side) and a mystical component (eg. spirituality and the mystical side). Both are necessary.

 

[LisaA]

Grace & Peace!

The question must then be asked: are these higher incidences directly correlative to the presence of a same sex attraction, or are they functions of a nexus of things: age, culture, family background, poor choices, etc.?

Are these health issues a function of being same sex attracted, or are they a function of poor behavioral choices (and when we’re speaking of oral sex, we’re not just speak of same sex attracted folks…)?

The anguish of discovering that one does not fit into a particular understanding of normativity and the anguish of sin are not the same. What is normative and what is moral are not equivalent, despite our occasional desire to the contrary.

Being a homosexual male, I can say that my experience with homosexuals is quite extensive as well.

I have yet to observe this anguish as directly correlating to same sex attraction qua same sex attraction.

A decadent or debauched culture, whether homosexual or heterosexual, will inevitably fail to produce the human relationships needed for human beings to flourish. If one has invested one’s life in such a culture, one cannot help but be disappointed when such a culture fails to bear the fruit one needs in order to grow as a human being.

All homosexual relationships? This is why I asked for objective criteria by which specific same-sex-attraction torment can be measured and observed in all same sex attracted people. For instance, I know of a number of homosexual relationships in which evidence for this specific torment (and the pathologies you’ve mentioned as indicative of it) is lacking and in which the folks in the relationship appear to be flourishing (growing in love and grace) because of the relationship and in ways directly analogous to heterosexual relationships. Saying that torment, anguish, or problems are an *inherent *part of the fabric of their relationship by dint of their mutual same-sex-attraction would be conjectural fantasy at best, slander at worst.

Would it be possible for you to provide the sort of diagnostic tools needed to prove that anguish or torment (presumably represented by a regularly occuring system of pathologies) of one sort or another is a universal and observable characteristic of same sex attraction qua same sex attracion?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Since you are a homosexual male you are far better equipped to answer your own questions. Obviously you were disingenuous in asking. FWIW I don’t feed the trolls.

Lisa

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Since you are a homosexual male you are far better equipped to answer your own questions.

I don’t know that I am far better equipped, Lisa. You made assertions regarding torment related to being same-sex attracted as if such torment were a necessary result of same sex attraction in itself. Either defend these with evidence or be willing to state that they’re indefensible. Throwing in the towel doesn’t help the credibility of your argument.

Obviously you were disingenuous in asking.

In what way have I been disingenuous? Because I asked you to support your assertions, or because as a homosexual male I asked you to support your assertions? Did I believe you could muster support for a patently sentimental argument which posited the existence of a universal anguish the existence of which could apparently lend credibility or authenticity to a particular moral teaching? I had my doubts, I’ll be honest–but I was willing to listen to what you had to say. Can you say the same, Lisa, that you’re willing to listen to what I have to say?

FWIW I don’t feed the trolls.

You throw in the towel too easily, and your insulting ad hominem insinuation is beneath you.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[LisaA]

Grace & Peace!

I don’t know that I am far better equipped, Lisa. You made assertions regarding torment related to being same-sex attracted as if such torment were a necessary result of same sex attraction in itself. Either defend these with evidence or be willing to state that they’re indefensible. Throwing in the towel doesn’t help the credibility of your argument.

In what way have I been disingenuous? Because I asked you to support your assertions, or because as a homosexual male I asked you to support your assertions? Did I believe you could muster support for a patently sentimental argument which posited the existence of a universal anguish the existence of which could apparently lend credibility or authenticity to a particular moral teaching? I had my doubts, I’ll be honest–but I was willing to listen to what you had to say. Can you say the same, Lisa, that you’re willing to listen to what I have to say?

You throw in the towel too easily, and your insulting ad hominem insinuation is beneath you.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Dear Mark
I have been on these forums for a number of years, off and on. I have often seen someone with a particular point of view pretend a curiousity about something when he/she a) has information and b) has their own conclusions in opposition to the position taken.

IOW you are asking me (without really wanting to know) to do a bunch of research and spend time writing a response.

No thanks

Lisa

 

[catholic1seeks]

I heard a priest recently explain that homosexuality is a disorder, like drug addiction, and I agreed with him.
Some people fall into drug addiction because their make-up is such that just a little bit of some drug gets them hooked easily.
They have a propensity in their system to need more and more.
If they lived in a different culture they would not be a drug addict.
I think homosexuality is the same.
Some people may have a slight SSA, and in different cultures it may not rise into a problem. They may suppress that feeling and instead meet a woman and marry and have kids etc. and be perfectly happy.
But in today’s culture, they get hooked into the SSA lifestyle that many including the media tell them is OK, and that it is a natural thing that they are born with, and they get hooked into the homosexual lifestyle.
If the same person lived in a quiet pacific island somewhere, or at a different time in history, then they wouldn’t have a SSA.
Hence the influx of homosexuality at the moment in our particular culture.
I don’t think this applies to all homosexuals, but I think it would apply to many.

This is always an interesting topic, and others have made some good points already. The original post equates homosexuality as a “disorder,” and as others have said, it must be understood what the Church means by this. Homosexuality is not considered a disorder by the Church in the medical sense; rather it is considered disordered to Man’s ultimate good. It is not in conformity to the natural law. We have to be really, really careful here. The Church does not make scientific statements, and it has not made one on the nature of homosexuality–whether its origins are biological/genetic or environmental. And it does not really matter, for the Church has always been firm on its understanding on God’s plan for sexuality.

But some men and women do endure very deep-seated homosexual attraction. Perhaps this is due to genetics or some other biological factors; maybe it is due to experiences undergone early on in one’s life. Whatever the case, as the Church affirms, having same-sex attraction can be a very heavy cross for many people. It is a trial; for the Catholic especially, it is very difficult for he knows that he cannot experience something that others do (namely, intimate relationships/love). He may endure strong “crushes” all the while knowing he cannot act upon his feelings. He goes through life stumbling to know God’s plan for him, being tempted along the way by the various options of the world—and other Christian communities who are open to same-sex arrangements.

As Christians, we cannot forget that this issue is not just theological or politcal: it affects real people–people right next to us, our family and friends. Gay marriage is an issue in our country right now. But we have to have real compassion for our gay friends. For their hearts yearn to be satisfied in the same way everyone else does.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Some quick questions on this inner torment:

1–Is it present in same sex attracted folks by virtue of them being same sex attracted?
2–What is its nature?
3–How is it discerned?

I confess that I do not ask these questions without bias–I often suspect that otherwise well-meaning folks who claim that same sex attracted people are suffering from an inner torment are making the claim because it makes sense to them that they should be in pain. This is related to a phenomenon I’ve noticed on these forums: that it is important that same-sex attracted people be seen to be in pain in order for them to receive a particular measure of acceptance or validation. I find it a troubling but persistent phenomenon.

So if you could establish that this torment is a direct by-product of any given same sex attracted person’s same sex attraction and discuss the objective criteria by which this torment can be observed and measured in all same sex attracted folks, that would be great. Otherwise, I feel that this universal-inner-torment-in-same-sex-attracted-folks-by-virtue-of-their-same-sex-attraction idea is a destructive (perhaps piously motivated, but culturally propagated) fantasy.

Thanks!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Deo,

The torment is not evident or immediate. My experience with gay men is that as they age, particularly in a relationship they have sadness. The sadness is related to those that worship the exterior of the body that is aging and not young anymore. I saw too many gay old men that were depressed, too many gay old couples that were sad as one of their partners aged and was ill. I made house calls in training and saw old gay men with pictures of young, muscular athletic men pasted all over their walls. This was while in San Francisco studying Medicine. Gay men you want to believe are the happiest people in the world. When I compare and contrast the heterosexual population and homosexual populations encountering similar life circumstances…the gay are not gayer…but sadder…

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Dear Mark
I have been on these forums for a number of years, off and on. I have often seen someone with a particular point of view pretend a curiousity about something when he/she a) has information and b) has their own conclusions in opposition to the position taken.

IOW you are asking me (without really wanting to know) to do a bunch of research and spend time writing a response.

No thanks

Lisa

I’d like your responses.

FWIW I have encounter DV many time here and he seems quite genuinely curious

Deo,

The torment is not evident or immediate. My experience with gay men is that as they age, particularly in a relationship they have sadness. The sadness is related to those that worship the exterior of the body that is aging and not young anymore. I saw too many gay old men that were depressed, too many gay old couples that were sad as one of their partners aged and was ill. I made house calls in training and saw old gay men with pictures of young, muscular athletic men pasted all over their walls. This was while in San Francisco studying Medicine. Gay men you want to believe are the happiest people in the world. When I compare and contrast the heterosexual population and homosexual populations encountering similar life circumstances…the gay are not gayer…but sadder…

I’m sure no heterosexual has ever gotten sad because his six pack is gone being replaced with a beer belly or her being sad because she is all wrinkly. I’m sure no heterosexual has ever been sad because his wife is ill. I’m sure no old heterosexual man has ever looked at an attractive young woman dirty or ever possessed photos pf a young and attractive woman in seductive poses. Mark appears to be asserting that not all gays are unhappy all the time.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d like your responses.

FWIW I have encounter DV many time here and he seems quite genuinely curious

I’m sure no heterosexual has ever gotten sad because his six pack is gone being replaced with a beer belly or her being sad because she is all wrinkly. I’m sure no heterosexual has ever been sad because his wife is ill. I’m sure no old heterosexual man has ever looked at an attractive young woman dirty or ever possessed photos pf a young and attractive woman in seductive poses. Mark appears to be asserting that not all gays are unhappy all the time.

Dakota,

Most hetersexual couples do not have to deal with the concerns about unprotected sex, rectal prolapse, hemorrhoids, fecal incontinence, genital warts and a variety of sad situations…

I am sure that you can compare and contrast your experience in hospital, office, home as it concerns this expereince as I have. My statement is based on encounters not reading or conjecture.

 

[Gaber]

Deo,

The torment is not evident or immediate. My experience with gay men is that as they age, particularly in a relationship they have sadness. The sadness is related to those that worship the exterior of the body that is aging and not young anymore. I saw too many gay old men that were depressed, too many gay old couples that were sad as one of their partners aged and was ill. I made house calls in training and saw old gay men with pictures of young, muscular athletic men pasted all over their walls. This was while in San Francisco studying Medicine. Gay men you want to believe are the happiest people in the world. When I compare and contrast the heterosexual population and homosexual populations encountering similar life circumstances…the gay are not gayer…but sadder…

We did an exercise in a psych class where we were told to walk the same block three times. Each time we were to wear a different “hat.” First, that of an engineer looking at utility services to and from homes, second as a house painter looking for prospective clients s indicated by the exterior details of their buildiing, and third, as a police officer looking for a lost child. You would be amazed at the three different streets you walked down just by adjustiong your perspective.

Further, as I visit aging people as a senior peer counseler, lo, I find art work in their homes, often depictions of lovely naked ladies. Oh, and then there is the collection in the drawers at the Vatican of alll the male genitals lopped off statues in the stunning prudery that cost us the mutilation of so much lovlely art, and the fig leafing of genitals in depictions of the human body in the paintings in the Vatican as well. Thank God the David wasn’t there! Wow. Healthy examples, yes?

And though I am myself newly a “senior,” (how old are you?) I feel great compassion and pain for my aging mate who has yet to work in her physically taxing job. She looks in the mirror every day at her honorably and honestly weathered face, which I love and stare at in admiration and awe, to make herself beautiful in a society that worships doll-skinned youth and skinny stick women. Do you think I don’t feel for her? You A**. (I’m not being mean or spiteful, you just deserve it. For projecting your limits and narrow view on something that is just common to people who love each other. Perhaps compassion is not something you learned in your medical school?)

And for myself, as I feel my body changing in ways that clearly indicate that I’m not 19 any more. Also, ask any old coot if he doesn’t notice a pretty skirt go by, as if age puts blinders on one’s eyes or stifles the endocrine system that much. Heck, my wife loves to watch “American Ninja” and admires those young bodies sweating and straining. Why wouldn’t she? They are beautiful specimens of God’s Creation. Maybe that is why the Sistine Chapel is so loaded up with nudes of nearly every discription, as are many temples. Or maybe the clergy there have the kind of motives you attribute to just gays?

In fact, I know gay men, single and coupled, who are very happy in their old age. And who are very accomplished and can afford such beautiful art. I would suspect, wouldn’t you, that it is easier to have nudes in the house if both of a couple admire the same sex. Try hanging a copy of Delacroix’s Odalisque in the living room if you have a heterosexual mate, or children! (Damn, that is a fine painting, as are so many other such!)

So CC, I C silliness and bumptuous bigotry in the view you present, you having narrowed so much that is normal to aging people in our society,to make a useless and blunt point, nd projected it on to what isn’t what you think, however nice and agreeeable an individual you might otherwise be. As you paint your picture with too broad strokes, are we perhaps just little afraid of something lurking in the back of one’s mind?

And for all you other “pain and suffering” advocates, why the blessed hell don’t you look at your own attitude and the necessary warpage that comes with it as being a primary source of pain and suffering of people whom you make disordered with your pious holier than thou thinking and behavior? CC, how much of the pain and suffering did your clients attributed to how they were thought of and treated and what that meant in their lives?

Or did you filter that part out, the part that has been attributed as the reason for so many suicides? You and people like you, I would suspect are the cheif cause of the symptoms you tout as “proof” of a condition that would be greatly mitigated by a huge and fundamental shift towards love on your part. Then see where this hypothesised sadness ad torment disapear to. You and your cohorts stop generating your part of it, and watch miracles happen.

 

[fix]

Not at all…it simply recognizes that the Church has both an “institutional” component (eg. the business and human side) and a mystical component (eg. spirituality and the mystical side). Both are necessary.

But we are talking about the teaching authority that comes from Christ.

 

[fix]

The “institutional” church is the one they protest. It is the teaching church they disagree with. The “institutional” church is the one with Bishops and stuff as oppose to the one they are members.

The institutional Church is often a code word used to convey that the teaching authority of the Pope is just an old boys club without any real authority in the matter we are discussing.

 

[CopticChristian]

We did an exercise in a psych class where we were told to walk the same block three times. Each time we were to wear a different “hat.” First, that of an engineer looking at utility services to and from homes, second as a house painter looking for prospective clients s indicated by the exterior details of their buildiing, and third, as a police officer looking for a lost child. You would be amazed at the three different streets you walked down just by adjustiong your perspective.

Further, as I visit aging people as a senior peer counseler, lo, I find art work in their homes, often depictions of lovely naked ladies. Oh, and then there is the collection in the drawers at the Vatican of alll the male genitals lopped off statues in the stunning prudery that cost us the mutilation of so much lovlely art, and the fig leafing of genitals in depictions of the human body in the paintings in the Vatican as well. Thank God the David wasn’t there! Wow. Healthy examples, yes?

And though I am myself newly a “senior,” (how old are you?) I feel great compassion and pain for my aging mate who has yet to work in her physically taxing job. She looks in the mirror every day at her honorably and honestly weathered face, which I love and stare at in admiration and awe, to make herself beautiful in a society that worships doll-skinned youth and skinny stick women. Do you think I don’t feel for her? You A**. (I’m not being mean or spiteful, you just deserve it. For projecting your limits and narrow view on something that is just common to people who love each other. Perhaps compassion is not something you learned in your medical school?)

And for myself, as I feel my body changing in ways that clearly indicate that I’m not 19 any more. Also, ask any old coot if he doesn’t notice a pretty skirt go by, as if age puts blinders on one’s eyes or stifles the endocrine system that much. Heck, my wife loves to watch “American Ninja” and admires those young bodies sweating and straining. Why wouldn’t she? They are beautiful specimens of God’s Creation. Maybe that is why the Sistine Chapel is so loaded up with nudes of nearly every discription, as are many temples. Or maybe the clergy there have the kind of motives you attribute to just gays?

In fact, I know gay men, single and coupled, who are very happy in their old age. And who are very accomplished and can afford such beautiful art. I would suspect, wouldn’t you, that it is easier to have nudes in the house if both of a couple admire the same sex. Try hanging a copy of Delacroix’s Odalisque in the living room if you have a heterosexual mate, or children! (Damn, that is a fine painting, as are so many other such!)

So CC, I C silliness and bumptuous bigotry in the view you present, you having narrowed so much that is normal to aging people in our society,to make a useless and blunt point, nd projected it on to what isn’t what you think, however nice and agreeeable an individual you might otherwise be. As you paint your picture with too broad strokes, are we perhaps just little afraid of something lurking in the back of one’s mind?

And for all you other “pain and suffering” advocates, why the blessed hell don’t you look at your own attitude and the necessary warpage that comes with it as being a primary source of pain and suffering of people whom you make disordered with your pious holier than thou thinking and behavior? CC, how much of the pain and suffering did your clients attributed to how they were thought of and treated and what that meant in their lives?

Or did you filter that part out, the part that has been attributed as the reason for so many suicides? You and people like you, I would suspect are the cheif cause of the symptoms you tout as “proof” of a condition that would be greatly mitigated by a huge and fundamental shift towards love on your part. Then see where this hypothesised sadness ad torment disapear to. You and your cohorts stop generating your part of it, and watch miracles happen.

Gaber,

My perspective is skewed. I have a distorted view. I agree. As a physician I see and saw people that seek help for problems and those that seek help in the homosexual population and the heterosexual population have provided me that skewed view. The problems are different.

You are correct. Walking down the street looking at a house is different than being inside the house. Walking by a hospital is different than being in the hospital seeing people on ventilators, dying from Aids, having surgery for Kaposi Sarcoma, recovering from drug overdoses. There are different perspectives I agree.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Dear Mark
I have been on these forums for a number of years, off and on. I have often seen someone with a particular point of view pretend a curiousity about something when he/she a) has information and b) has their own conclusions in opposition to the position taken.

IOW you are asking me (without really wanting to know) to do a bunch of research and spend time writing a response.

No thanks

As Dakota kindly noted, I am genuinely curious, and I’ve not been reticent to discuss the nature of my curiosity: I’m interested in the practical effects on the lives of faithful RC same sex attracted folks of the teaching on same sex attraction being an objective disorder and whether or not those effects are necessarily emergent from sound RC moral teaching. Or, to put it in the form of a question: “Is it possible for a same-sex attracted faithful Roman Catholic man or woman, committed to chastity, to live and fall in love and be in relationship with the person with whom they’ve fallen in love and do so without pain, guilt or shame?” You have posited that it is impossible because you believe that there is a kind of inner torment inherent in same sex attraction itself. I want to know why you think that, and I want to discover if thinking as you do is a necessary outgrowth of sound RC moral teaching in practice.

I’m not trying to make you do research, but if your assertion is actually based on research, I would imagine you would be able to produce it quickly because it would have informed how you came to make your assertion to begin with. My hunch is that your assertion is more of an emotionalized universalization of your perception of your experience and less objectively verifiable by research. That’s fine. I’ve made assertions based on similar evidence/experience. They’ve not gotten me particularly far, certainly not very far in these forums. I don’t want to call your experience itself into question nor would I claim that your experience is invalid, but I don’t mind challenging your perception of that experience and what formed it. Others have kindly done the same for me and, one way or another, I’ve profited by it (regardless of whether or not I’ve found their challenges correct!).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

As Dakota kindly noted, I am genuinely curious, and I’ve not been reticent to discuss the nature of my curiosity: I’m interested in the practical effects on the lives of faithful RC same sex attracted folks of the teaching on same sex attraction being an objective disorder and whether or not those effects are necessarily emergent from sound RC moral teaching. Or, to put it in the form of a question: “Is it possible for a same-sex attracted faithful Roman Catholic man or woman, committed to chastity, to live and fall in love and be in relationship with the person with whom they’ve fallen in love and do so without pain, guilt or shame?” You have posited that it is impossible because you believe that there is a kind of inner torment inherent in same sex attraction itself. I want to know why you think that, and I want to discover if thinking as you do is a necessary outgrowth of sound RC moral teaching in practice.

I’m not trying to make you do research, but if your assertion is actually based on research, I would imagine you would be able to produce it quickly because it would have informed how you came to make your assertion to begin with. My hunch is that your assertion is more of an emotionalized universalization of your perception of your experience and less objectively verifiable by research. That’s fine. I’ve made assertions based on similar evidence/experience. They’ve not gotten me particularly far, certainly not very far in these forums. I don’t want to call your experience itself into question nor would I claim that your experience is invalid, but I don’t mind challenging your perception of that experience and what formed it. Others have kindly done the same for me and, one way or another, I’ve profited by it (regardless of whether or not I’ve found their challenges correct!).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Deo Volente,

You pose a problem that only you can answer. The notion of “same sex attraction” as long as you use it carries the overtone of something other than collegiality and friendship. This will continually cause frustration because there is the continued reason to ask why are you attracted? If the attraction is related to passion, emotion, etc then you have cause to bring understanding.

I spent time in the boy scouts. Some would say that is a same sex gathering. Well quite honestly I never thought of it that way. Boy Scouts are boys doing things together. I spent time in a fraternity. Some would say that it is a same sex gathering. I honestly was never attracted to a Fraternity because it was of my sex. It was natural for men to live with men and women to live with women because we were similar. “Attraction” had nothing to do with it.

As long as you invoke “same sex attraction” in any scenario you automatically implicate the problem of what is it you are talking about.

Can two men live together as friends? I had two male roommates in college out of necessity. The reasons for coming together were financial and common interests. There was no “same sex attraction”.

The onus is on you not others to answer the question. What do you mean by “same sex attraction” in a non-sexual relationship between two men living together? Why did you come to live together in the first place? Intention defines the action.

Can a man that is heterosexual be a room mate with a Prostitute and they are mutually attracted live in a relationship that is committed to Chastity? The answer for me is that why would I place myself in a situation where there is a near occasion of sin?

 

[LisaA]

Grace & Peace!

As Dakota kindly noted, I am genuinely curious, and I’ve not been reticent to discuss the nature of my curiosity: I’m interested in the practical effects on the lives of faithful RC same sex attracted folks of the teaching on same sex attraction being an objective disorder and whether or not those effects are necessarily emergent from sound RC moral teaching. Or, to put it in the form of a question: “Is it possible for a same-sex attracted faithful Roman Catholic man or woman, committed to chastity, to live and fall in love and be in relationship with the person with whom they’ve fallen in love and do so without pain, guilt or shame?” You have posited that it is impossible because you believe that there is a kind of inner torment inherent in same sex attraction itself. I want to know why you think that, and I want to discover if thinking as you do is a necessary outgrowth of sound RC moral teaching in practice.

I’m not trying to make you do research, but if your assertion is actually based on research, I would imagine you would be able to produce it quickly because it would have informed how you came to make your assertion to begin with. My hunch is that your assertion is more of an emotionalized universalization of your perception of your experience and less objectively verifiable by research. That’s fine. I’ve made assertions based on similar evidence/experience. They’ve not gotten me particularly far, certainly not very far in these forums. I don’t want to call your experience itself into question nor would I claim that your experience is invalid, but I don’t mind challenging your perception of that experience and what formed it. Others have kindly done the same for me and, one way or another, I’ve profited by it (regardless of whether or not I’ve found their challenges correct!).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark had you read my post you would have noted that I explained how and why my perception of homosexuality was formed. But in the context of saving time so you don’t have to search: I was raised by two PhD scientists who were totally secular, atheist and in violent disagreement with Christianity and its teachings. As secular biologists they taught me that from a biological basis, any physical or mental or behavioral issues that would either cause a species to sicken or die prematurely and/or result in the inability to procreate was by definition not normal. The first objective of any species is survival, followed by procreation to ensure the species survives. This premise can be applied to homosexuality. I think even you as an advocate and defender of homosexuality, will have to admit that homosexuals, particularly males, have a lot of physical and mental health issues related to homosexuality. Coptic Christian has been more forthright than I in describing some of these issues. Further there are many studies demonstrating a higher incidence of drug addiction, mental health issues, and suicide in homosexuals, again particularly the males. And no matter how determined, homosexual pairs cannot procreate as Coptic Christian also clarified.

This behavior is not normal. I am not being specifically perjorative because it is a sexual sin. I was not raised Catholic and have none of the legendary “Catholic guilt.” I am looking at homosexuality in the same way I look at other abnormal behaviors.

I am now Catholic and one of the things that most drew me to this faith is the intellectual tradition, the relationship to Natural Law, and the consistency of position particularly on life issues.

So I will state that my perception originated from a secular and biological view and was further strengthened by Catholic teaching with completely confirms my secular parents’ viewpoint of such issues as homosexuality.

Lisa

 

[CopticChristian]

Mark had you read my post you would have noted that I explained how and why my perception of homosexuality was formed. But in the context of saving time so you don’t have to search: I was raised by two PhD scientists who were totally secular, atheist and in violent disagreement with Christianity and its teachings. As secular biologists they taught me that from a biological basis, any physical or mental or behavioral issues that would either cause a species to sicken or die prematurely and/or result in the inability to procreate was by definition not normal. The first objective of any species is survival, followed by procreation to ensure the species survives. This premise can be applied to homosexuality. I think even you as an advocate and defender of homosexuality, will have to admit that homosexuals, particularly males, have a lot of physical and mental health issues related to homosexuality. Coptic Christian has been more forthright than I in describing some of these issues. Further there are many studies demonstrating a higher incidence of drug addiction, mental health issues, and suicide in homosexuals, again particularly the males. And no matter how determined, homosexual pairs cannot procreate as Coptic Christian also clarified.

This behavior is not normal. I am not being specifically perjorative because it is a sexual sin. I was not raised Catholic and have none of the legendary “Catholic guilt.” I am looking at homosexuality in the same way I look at other abnormal behaviors.

I am now Catholic and one of the things that most drew me to this faith is the intellectual tradition, the relationship to Natural Law, and the consistency of position particularly on life issues.

So I will state that my perception originated from a secular and biological view and was further strengthened by Catholic teaching with completely confirms my secular parents’ viewpoint of such issues as homosexuality.

Lisa

Lisa,

This is a perspective. Mark, I believe would do well to parallel in kind his perspective based on the factors you mention, upbringing, beliefs, where they come from and the sort you have pointed out as a means of understanding how Mark came to believe the contrary. That would be insightful.