C
CopticChristian
Guest
Tsk,
One of the problems I had with your postings was that you identified as “Catholic” I now notice you state your identity as “ECC”…I don’t know what that is. Help me understand.
- Status
One of the problems I had with your postings was that you identified as “Catholic” I now notice you state your identity as “ECC”…I don’t know what that is. Help me understand.
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Good points Gaber…Our God is infinitely knowable…which is to say he is not fully knowable by our finite mind. Even in it’s best hour, the teachings of all the Churches of the world combined fall far short of the Goodness of God. Fortunately we do have the great wisdom traditions through the eye of mystics, saints and other great teachers - they begin to penetrate the oneness that Jesus spoke of.
F
fix
Guest
Did Christ give authority to His apostles in these matters?
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Like you and everyone I am just another person on the spiritual Journey back to the God of my understanding. The label we attach to ourselves is without meaning anyway. What we know about God is important, but we we do with what we know about God is even more important. Too often people think it is necessary that we all see God the same way (which is impossible anyway), but what is really necessary is that we all follow God according to what God tells us.
Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. Not if I read the bible, go to church or obey the commandments. Whoever without love does not know God, for God is Love. No greater love do we have then to love our neighbor…to lay down your life for your friend. Inside of that mystery we know God.
G
Gaber
Guest
That is well said. In the reaches of the inner depths of Love, of adoratin of the Divine, such heated debate as we see on here is reduced to mere silliness.
But the function and predeliction of the mind is twofold: to divide so as to make distinctions pertinent to survival, and to feel right. Even the serial killer usually feels he was right in his actions, asthe highest measurable self esteem has been found in death row. Thus, what the mind thinks it thinks is mistaken as having 1/1 correspondence with “reality.” That is the mind that can be trained to be human or more, but usually is merely housebroken and given toys, mechanical, electrical, and paradimical (
) to play with that disteract from other than superficial introspection. So in the same sense that MRI studies suggest that conservatives (a fabulously misleading moniker) tend to act from the fear center of the brain, (read personal bodily survival,) and liberals act more whole brained, (actually extended family oriented) so do dogmatics and mystics act from different premises.So while a mystic has passed through the fulcrum that would make personal survival at the expense of others perceptually an actulal need in a “first world” country. the ortdinary faither has not. They will therefore marshal the Scripture intended to be a map for delving into the mystery of Unity as a bludgeon to protect themselves, thus missing its actual meaning and intention. Thus you see the worship of form with little cognizance of actual transmittable content. And that is because, for the most part, the alleged and “entrusted” transmitters have forgotten the lore of giving as expereince what is between the literal lines. Paper and ink userp the God in a formalism that becomes the materialst spirituality of the fearful.
Not much you can do about that. It is just what happens until a “conversion of Paul” type incident happens. And that is pretty rare, and why “paulians” tend not to be in a church or leave quickly upon waking up. I know of only one contemporary Roman Catholic mystic of exquisit genuineness and lucidity who has stuck it out. There may be more, but I only know of one.
So we can argue on here till our faces are as cyanotic as the blue background of the repy feild I’m typing in, but there will, on the part of the “fixers” only be further entrenchment. Have you not seen this? It happens in proportion to the presentation of facts. Often, the more obviously true a point is, the greater the reaction. Not response, but reaction. As in chemicalization or emotionalization. And as you point to, it has to do with lack of basic self/Self knowledge, that being displaced by blind adherence, it would seem to me, to unexamined inculcations of dogma, regardless of faith or political affiliation.
Good, as such, has no religious or party affiliation. It is just itself. And while there is rightfully a desire to explain the Source of that good, or understand it, which is better because it means work and inquiry, most of us just are too comfortable being legitimized by anadopted third party affiliation to look hard enough to see past the literal meaning of things. And yet we know that Jesus taught in parables that had a minimum of three levels of meaning. Probably more, as Mark 4:33,34 points out and is therefore studiously ignored.
But we can’t, as a group, seem to get past the story level into some deeeper meaning. And consequently the unexamined story in our heads rules until we can penetrate it by stopping the internal dialogue and self verification. But that is what the Great mystics of the Church were able to do, and why the Carmalites contemplate Silence. I capitalize that to distiguish it from both the absence of sound and quietism. And that is what puts them on a radically different footing than mere faith, however useful a starting point that might be.
So I wish you luck on here. Your standpoint and mine are on hazardous ground on here, despite our efforts to warn others of their falling headlong into a ditch their heart could save them from.
But no matter what, know that you are in the Arms of Love, and Love always provieds the panoply of arms necessary to forge into its own depths to its Source. And don’t be taken in by the allegations of the alligators.
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Jesus clearly instructed the apostles and established “church” to be a guiding force for good and for God. He said that when 2 or more are gathered there is He is among us. By Jesus’ definition “Church” is quite different then our modern institutional understanding. It must always be a pointer to something beyond itself…to the teachings of the mystical body of Christ. Who among us would question the Spirit of Goodness, Grace and Mercy revealed through the ages by Mystics, Saints, Mohammed, Abraham, the Buddha, MLK, the woman at the well, the Dali Lama, a child, or Jesus?
The Franciscans say it best when they say “Salvation is an inner clarity that forever allows one to recognize bogus authority and pseudo-surrender.”
G
Gaber
Guest
Good one.
Could your “name” be spelled more easily in Cyrilic font? No answer required.
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Thank you for your compassioned response. I agree that those inside institutionalized religions remain among the most difficult to convert. Still organized religion has it’s proper place in laying the foundation in our childhood for taking up our own cross as we move into the second half of our life’s journey. Those converted (usually by great suffering or great love) can then live in a certain freedom to draw upon the wisdom traditions as they proceed with their life’s work.That is well said. In the reaches of the inner depths of Love, of adoratin of the Divine, such heated debate as we see on here is reduced to mere silliness.
But the function and predeliction of the mind is twofold: to divide so as to make distinctions pertinent to survival, and to feel right. Even the serial killer usually feels he was right in his actions, asthe highest measurable self esteem has been found in death row. Thus, what the mind thinks it thinks is mistaken as having 1/1 correspondence with “reality.” That is the mind that can be trained to be human or more, but usually is merely housebroken and given toys, mechanical, electrical, and paradimical (
So while a mystic has passed through the fulcrum that would make personal survival at the expense of others perceptually an actulal need in a “first world” country. the ortdinary faither has not. They will therefore marshal the Scripture intended to be a map for delving into the mystery of Unity as a bludgeon to protect themselves, thus missing its actual meaning and intention. Thus you see the worship of form with little cognizance of actual transmittable content. And that is because, for the most part, the alleged and “entrusted” transmitters have forgotten the lore of giving as expereince what is between the literal lines. Paper and ink userp the God in a formalism that becomes the materialst spirituality of the fearful.
Not much you can do about that. It is just what happens until a “conversion of Paul” type incident happens. And that is pretty rare, and why “paulians” tend not to be in a church or leave quickly upon waking up. I know of only one contemporary Roman Catholic mystic of exquisit genuineness and lucidity who has stuck it out. There may be more, but I only know of one.
So we can argue on here till our faces are as cyanotic as the blue background of the repy feild I’m typing in, but there will, on the part of the “fixers” only be further entrenchment. Have you not seen this? It happens in proportion to the presentation of facts. Often, the more obviously true a point is, the greater the reaction. Not response, but reaction. As in chemicalization or emotionalization. And as you point to, it has to do with lack of basic self/Self knowledge, that being displaced by blind adherence, it would seem to me, to unexamined inculcations of dogma, regardless of faith or political affiliation.
Good, as such, has no religious or party affiliation. It is just itself. And while there is rightfully a desire to explain the Source of that good, or understand it, which is better because it means work and inquiry, most of us just are too comfortable being legitimized by anadopted third party affiliation to look hard enough to see past the literal meaning of things. And yet we know that Jesus taught in parables that had a minimum of three levels of meaning. Probably more, as Mark 4:33,34 points out and is therefore studiously ignored.
But we can’t, as a group, seem to get past the story level into some deeeper meaning. And consequently the unexamined story in our heads rules until we can penetrate it by stopping the internal dialogue and self verification. But that is what the Great mystics of the Church were able to do, and why the Carmalites contemplate Silence. I capitalize that to distiguish it from both the absence of sound and quietism. And that is what puts them on a radically different footing than mere faith, however useful a starting point that might be.
So I wish you luck on here. Your standpoint and mine are on hazardous ground on here, despite our efforts to warn others of their falling headlong into a ditch their heart could save them from.
But no matter what, know that you are in the Arms of Love, and Love always provieds the panoply of arms necessary to forge into its own depths to its Source. And don’t be taken in by the allegations of the alligators.
L
LisaA
Guest
Love all the flowery prose but it has nothing to do with the thread and is quite perjorative in that you presume that no one but you can see the truth. I guess the rest of us depending on mere mortals, albeit saints, are still in danger of “falling on our heads.” Thanks for the warning but I’ll stick with what the Church has taught me. Perhaps God is unknowable but there have been two thousand years of scholarship, tradition, and wisdom imparted by the Church. I choose to believe that this two thousand years is a lot more credible than the poetic meanderings of those who would like to invent their own religion, code of ethics and guide to life.That is well said. In the reaches of the inner depths of Love, of adoratin of the Divine, such heated debate as we see on here is reduced to mere silliness.
So I wish you luck on here. Your standpoint and mine are on hazardous ground on here, despite our efforts to warn others of their falling headlong into a ditch their heart could save them from.
But no matter what, know that you are in the Arms of Love, and Love always provieds the panoply of arms necessary to forge into its own depths to its Source. And don’t be taken in by the allegations of the alligators.
I still believe from both the Church and scientific research that homosexuality is abnormal, i.e. disordered behavior. Both back up this conclusion and all the navel gazing in the past few posts has not provided any evidence to the contrary. I wish you luck in your faith journey.
Lisa
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Since you mention evidence I suspect you are looking for some “certainty”. Lacking that certainty you have defaulted to the Church’s teaching which is a reasoned response. For me, I do not need or seek such certainty. I’m confident that the many good and loving people I know that are also in same sex relationships reveal a God and a Love present and at work even among those that many would walk past on side of the road.
F
fix
Guest
Can you point to any saint that defends immoral acts? Can you point to any age when the Church taught as you do?That is well said. In the reaches of the inner depths of Love, of adoratin of the Divine, such heated debate as we see on here is reduced to mere silliness.
But the function and predeliction of the mind is twofold: to divide so as to make distinctions pertinent to survival, and to feel right. Even the serial killer usually feels he was right in his actions, asthe highest measurable self esteem has been found in death row. Thus, what the mind thinks it thinks is mistaken as having 1/1 correspondence with “reality.” That is the mind that can be trained to be human or more, but usually is merely housebroken and given toys, mechanical, electrical, and paradimical (
So while a mystic has passed through the fulcrum that would make personal survival at the expense of others perceptually an actulal need in a “first world” country. the ortdinary faither has not. They will therefore marshal the Scripture intended to be a map for delving into the mystery of Unity as a bludgeon to protect themselves, thus missing its actual meaning and intention. Thus you see the worship of form with little cognizance of actual transmittable content. And that is because, for the most part, the alleged and “entrusted” transmitters have forgotten the lore of giving as expereince what is between the literal lines. Paper and ink userp the God in a formalism that becomes the materialst spirituality of the fearful.
Not much you can do about that. It is just what happens until a “conversion of Paul” type incident happens. And that is pretty rare, and why “paulians” tend not to be in a church or leave quickly upon waking up. I know of only one contemporary Roman Catholic mystic of exquisit genuineness and lucidity who has stuck it out. There may be more, but I only know of one.
So we can argue on here till our faces are as cyanotic as the blue background of the repy feild I’m typing in, but there will, on the part of the “fixers” only be further entrenchment. Have you not seen this? It happens in proportion to the presentation of facts. Often, the more obviously true a point is, the greater the reaction. Not response, but reaction. As in chemicalization or emotionalization. And as you point to, it has to do with lack of basic self/Self knowledge, that being displaced by blind adherence, it would seem to me, to unexamined inculcations of dogma, regardless of faith or political affiliation.
Good, as such, has no religious or party affiliation. It is just itself. And while there is rightfully a desire to explain the Source of that good, or understand it, which is better because it means work and inquiry, most of us just are too comfortable being legitimized by anadopted third party affiliation to look hard enough to see past the literal meaning of things. And yet we know that Jesus taught in parables that had a minimum of three levels of meaning. Probably more, as Mark 4:33,34 points out and is therefore studiously ignored.
But we can’t, as a group, seem to get past the story level into some deeeper meaning. And consequently the unexamined story in our heads rules until we can penetrate it by stopping the internal dialogue and self verification. But that is what the Great mystics of the Church were able to do, and why the Carmalites contemplate Silence. I capitalize that to distiguish it from both the absence of sound and quietism. And that is what puts them on a radically different footing than mere faith, however useful a starting point that might be.
So I wish you luck on here. Your standpoint and mine are on hazardous ground on here, despite our efforts to warn others of their falling headlong into a ditch their heart could save them from.
But no matter what, know that you are in the Arms of Love, and Love always provieds the panoply of arms necessary to forge into its own depths to its Source. And don’t be taken in by the allegations of the alligators.
F
fix
Guest
I find the use of “institutional” Church mostly means that one rejects Church authority in matters of sexual morality.
F
fix
Guest
I will simplify for those lurking. One wants to do what one wants to do regardless of all that She teaches. Truth is like a sword, it divides.
L
LisaA
Guest
No in actuality I was raised by secular atheists, college biology professors. I did not enter the Catholic Church until I was in my late 40s. My conclusions about such matters as homosexuality, life issues etc were originally formed by scientific evidence.
Thus I never “defaulted” to the Church’s teachings. What I saw in the Church was the Truth based on Natural Law, biology even, that completely supported the same conclusions I had reached through a completely secular and intellectual upbringing and education. Thus I was attracted to the Wholeness of Truth that She provides. Science only has part of the Truth and was incomplete.
Your comment referring to the Samaritan was most uncharitable and incorrect. I have no doubt that those with same sex attraction have the capacity to love just as those who do not suffer from this affliction, and it IS an affliction. OTOH that they have the same capacity to love as any child of God, doesn’t mean that the acts in which they engage are EVIDENCE of this capacity to love. As Christ said, no greater love than he who lays down his life for a friend, just as He did for us. Sodomy hardly reaches that level but instead is simply a way to deal with lust just as opposite sex activities can be when not in the context of a husband and wife.
Lisa
Stephen168
New member
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Elizabeth502
Guest
(1) You see what anyone can see: that what is referred to theologically as “disinterested friendship” (which does not refer to something cold, but rather something selfless) is a sign of God’s self-giving. But that applies to that giving aspect of friendship which is identical to non-physical friendships between those of different sexes as well. To have that high level of “goodness” does not require sexual expression, nor does sexual expression between people of the same gender enoble or elevate that friendship “even more.”
(2) You do not see what everyone else also cannot see, unless one is a clinician working with such couples or those couples: You do not see how these relationships are unhealthy and unsatisyfing compensations for essential deficits in the lives of such members of an artificially constructed “couple.” You don’t see the internal sadness because there’s not always a public face presented for that.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
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epan
Guest
Curious. Are you a clinician who works with gay people?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
No, but I have close friends and business associates who do. In addition, I have done a lot of clinical reading which provides additional documentation for this perspective. (I read medical and similar technical journals for fun.
)Have a nice day.
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