The disorder of homosexuality

[epan]

Epan,

The tragedy is that the Homosexual population that view and visit this site use all sorts of loopholes to have others accept their behavior and the disorder of homosexuality. Hypothetically speaking is not helpful to the cause of what this thread is about.

What if???

I don’t know what a loophole is in behavioral science. But I am not in that field.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t know what a loophole is in behavioral science. But I am not in that field.

Epan,

Behavioral Science? Does that make any sense to you. Science is like this…an apple falls from a tree and predictably it falls at a certain rate and meets a certain fate. Salt and water make a solution.

What have you seen from “Behavioral Science” that is predicable and not conjecture. Loopholes are the hypotheticals and the different ways of analyzing data. One analyzes this way and another analyzes that way, the same data with different results. Do you believe that this is science?

 

[LisaA]

I quoted the Bible verse in response to your argument that my position was not based on Scripture…As I said previously, Love is the trump card that overcomes all of our finite thinking on this subject and Love is the Soul Commandment of Jesus…it is the only way to unity.

Unfortunately your definition of “love” as used in the Bible verse bears no resemblence to the actual Scripture. Again I ask, do you interpret Christ’s call that we love God and love one another as justification for un-natural, unholy and unhealthy sexual activities?

Do you?

Do you equate sodomy with a Marine who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies (lay down one’s life for a friend)? Is engaging in sodomy laying down one’s life for a friend? Is it in any way the kind of self sacrificial love that Christ taught is what His Father asks of us?

James Findley huh? I guess I don’t know how a poem over rides sacred Scripture and the Magisterium but I guess not being Catholic you answer to a different authority.

Lisa

 

[Catholic80]

Some of you have touched on this in your posts, and I’ll admit, I haven’t read all 10 pages (maybe 3 pages) but I wanted to elaborate on some of the connections that were made about disorders.

Someone posted about eating being a biological need that arrives from a desire (hunger) and the fulfillment of that desire (eating) is meant to be a pleasurable activity.

We all need nourishment - calories, vitamins, minerals, fiber, fats, sugars, water, etc. Some of us need more than others (people who do a lot of strenuous labor, people with fast metabolisms, tall people, growing teens, a nursing mother, an ill person, genetic origins, etc.) We all have a variety of needs when it comes to nutrition because of our bodies, and circumstances. But, the basic need for sustenance is there. We all need food to survive and we are all created to eat. Not one human can survive without food. Likewise, we are all created with a hunger known as a sex drive.

Our need for food and our fulfillment of that need also has great disorder in our world today…

Starving people in poor areas, gluttony, anorexia nervosa, bulimia, over-eating, pica, loss of appetite, addiction to sugary or fatty foods, cravings for unhealthy food, food allergies, food intolerance, digestive problems, etc. We all need to eat, but eating, too has become disordered… some psychological (ex. bulimia), some emotional (over-eating), some environmental (food allergies), some biological (allergies and digestive disorders), some lack of self control “choice” (gluttony). Even then, many of these examples are more complicated than that and have several contributing factors combined. Bulimia could be biological (mother had it and maybe the person was overweight by genetics), environmental (her classmates and family made fun of her weight) Psychological (her self-esteem was broken and she went into depression or obsession) and then her choice became involved (self-induced binging and vomiting)

If there are so many disorders or disordered ways of eating, whether it be forced upon us (starving children in a poor country - which is a disorder of society) or a “choice” (gluttony - which could be caused by emotional and psychological factors as well) why is it surprising that there are disorders and disordered behaviors when it comes to sexuality, which is also a hunger?

Just because something is disordered doesn’t make it any less real or any less confusing. The temptation of an anorexic to starve herself is very real. The temptation for a compulsive over-eater to binge is very real. A human should be able to drink milk, and eat nuts, fish, wheat, etc. But to the highly-allergic individual, these substances can be deadly. There is enough food in the world for everyone, and yet we have starving people.

My guess is that homosexuality is just as complicated to understand as all of the problems we have with food. We are created with a need for love and human affection and a desire for sex, just as we are created to eat. Because of our fallen nature, things get messed up over time and become disordered. Saying that homosexuality is “normal” because it exists, is no different than saying that a starving child is “normal” because it exists. Both are tragedies of a disordered society. But like all disorders, the goal should be to help those who are suffering.

 

[CopticChristian]

Some of you have touched on this in your posts, and I’ll admit, I haven’t read all 10 pages (maybe 3 pages) but I wanted to elaborate on some of the connections that were made about disorders.

Someone posted about eating being a biological need that arrives from a desire (hunger) and the fulfillment of that desire (eating) is meant to be a pleasurable activity.

We all need nourishment - calories, vitamins, minerals, fiber, fats, sugars, water, etc. Some of us need more than others (people who do a lot of strenuous labor, people with fast metabolisms, tall people, growing teens, a nursing mother, an ill person, genetic origins, etc.) We all have a variety of needs when it comes to nutrition because of our bodies, and circumstances. But, the basic need for sustenance is there. We all need food to survive and we are all created to eat. Not one human can survive without food. Likewise, we are all created with a hunger known as a sex drive.

Our need for food and our fulfillment of that need also has great disorder in our world today…

Starving people in poor areas, gluttony, anorexia nervosa, bulimia, over-eating, pica, loss of appetite, addiction to sugary or fatty foods, cravings for unhealthy food, food allergies, food intolerance, digestive problems, etc. We all need to eat, but eating, too has become disordered… some psychological (ex. bulimia), some emotional (over-eating), some environmental (food allergies), some biological (allergies and digestive disorders), some lack of self control “choice” (gluttony). Even then, many of these examples are more complicated than that and have several contributing factors combined. Bulimia could be biological (mother had it and maybe the person was overweight by genetics), environmental (her classmates and family made fun of her weight) Psychological (her self-esteem was broken and she went into depression or obsession) and then her choice became involved (self-induced binging and vomiting)

If there are so many disorders or disordered ways of eating, whether it be forced upon us (starving children in a poor country - which is a disorder of society) or a “choice” (gluttony - which could be caused by emotional and psychological factors as well) why is it surprising that there are disorders and disordered behaviors when it comes to sexuality, which is also a hunger?

Just because something is disordered doesn’t make it any less real or any less confusing. The temptation of an anorexic to starve herself is very real. The temptation for a compulsive over-eater to binge is very real. A human should be able to drink milk, and eat nuts, fish, wheat, etc. But to the highly-allergic individual, these substances can be deadly. There is enough food in the world for everyone, and yet we have starving people.

My guess is that homosexuality is just as complicated to understand as all of the problems we have with food. We are created with a need for love and human affection and a desire for sex, just as we are created to eat. Because of our fallen nature, things get messed up over time and become disordered. Saying that homosexuality is “normal” because it exists, is no different than saying that a starving child is “normal” because it exists. Both are tragedies of a disordered society. But like all disorders, the goal should be to help those who are suffering.

Catholic 80,

Babies are born and without much prompting take to a breast to feed.

Children do discover their genitals however sex is innate and learned.

The parallels although interesting do not coincide.

You must eat to live.

You do not have to have sex to live. You must have sex to procreate. Some choose not to procreate. Some choose to have sex to live.

 

[epan]

Epan,

Behavioral Science? Does that make any sense to you. Science is like this…an apple falls from a tree and predictably it falls at a certain rate and meets a certain fate. Salt and water make a solution.

What have you seen from “Behavioral Science” that is predicable and not conjecture. Loopholes are the hypotheticals and the different ways of analyzing data. One analyzes this way and another analyzes that way, the same data with different results. Do you believe that this is science?

Yes, there is a large body of knowledge about human behavior. Some from observation, some from experiments. Some from genetics and other hard sciences. With the current imaging technologies which can view brain activity in real time, much is being learned. I just don’t know much about it.

I am more of the hard science type, myself. But I don’t dismiss something just because I don’t understand it well.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, there is a large body of knowledge about human behavior. Some from observation, some from experiments. Some from genetics and other hard sciences. With the current imaging technologies which can view brain activity in real time, much is being learned. I just don’t know much about it.

I am more of the hard science type, myself. But I don’t dismiss something just because I don’t understand it well.

Epan,

I suggest you to to YouTube and search for “BBC The Story of the Brain” and add this information to your understanding of behavior and science.

 

[epan]

Epan,

I suggest you to to YouTube and search for “BBC The Story of the Brain” and add this information to your understanding of behavior and science.

Thanks!

 

[tskrobacz]

Unfortunately your definition of “love” as used in the Bible verse bears no resemblence to the actual Scripture. Again I ask, do you interpret Christ’s call that we love God and love one another as justification for un-natural, unholy and unhealthy sexual activities?

Do you?

Do you equate sodomy with a Marine who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies (lay down one’s life for a friend)? Is engaging in sodomy laying down one’s life for a friend? Is it in any way the kind of self sacrificial love that Christ taught is what His Father asks of us?

James Findley huh? I guess I don’t know how a poem over rides sacred Scripture and the Magisterium but I guess not being Catholic you answer to a different authority.

Lisa

Why do you have such a need to move the conversation from committed loving relationships to a narrow discussion of the physical expressions of that Love? The living God has had authority over all of creation well before Scripture and the Church.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

 

[RobbyS]

As a Father of a Lesbian daughter and a Gay son I think the catholic church teaching is spot on, its the same as what the good priest said, its a disorder.

Secular society would say otherwise but thats just nasty people trying to force their agenda onto the rest of us.

I can’t help notice the similarities between my childrens mother who has all sorts of mental health problems and my gay children.

I conclude that Homosexuality is a disorder of the brain.

Their sexual compasses are not pointed toward true north. Might compared it with an eating disorder. People get very,very fat/very,very skinny because they look at food in the wrong way.

 

[tskrobacz]

Tsk,

I asked and you did not respond. I read your prior postings and understand your plight as you asked for prayer. You appear to believe that Homosexuality as it is defined today does not correlate with some past definition. You have been asked to link to the Catholic Catechism on teaching and you link to those that support gay marriage and homosexual relationships that is counter productive to your designation as Catholic.

I do not understand why you are vague about your belief and acceptance of homosexual relationships in the context of this thread “the disorder of homosexuality”.

You say I am vague much like those pharisees, priests and scribes of old that needed to operate in absolutes (black and white) - They like us were unable to hear or fully grasp the wisdom teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount or the parables. Teachings that led us into the mystery of a God beyond our understanding and the mystery of unconditional Love.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

 

[epan]

Unfortunately your definition of “love” as used in the Bible verse bears no resemblence to the actual Scripture. Again I ask, do you interpret Christ’s call that we love God and love one another as justification for un-natural, unholy and unhealthy sexual activities?

Do you?

Do you equate sodomy with a Marine who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies (lay down one’s life for a friend)? Is engaging in sodomy laying down one’s life for a friend? Is it in any way the kind of self sacrificial love that Christ taught is what His Father asks of us?

James Findley huh? I guess I don’t know how a poem over rides sacred Scripture and the Magisterium but I guess not being Catholic you answer to a different authority.

Lisa

For your analogy to hold, you would need to claim that heterosexual sexual intercourse equates with falling on a grenade.

Do you have a better example of what you are trying to say?

 

[CopticChristian]

Why do you have such a need to move the conversation from committed loving relationships to a narrow discussion of the physical expressions of that Love? The living God has had authority over all of creation well before Scripture and the Church.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

Tsk,

You have posted and incomplete understaning of the letter to the Romans.

21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

  24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

  26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, **men with men committing indecent acts **and receiving in their own persons the due **penalty of their error.**

I provided the Greek interlinear for you concerning the indecent acts…

interlinearbible.org/romans/1-27.htm

 

[CopticChristian]

You say I am vague much like those pharisees, priests and scribes of old that needed to operate in absolutes (black and white) - They like us were unable to hear or fully grasp the wisdom teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount or the parables. Teachings that led us into the mystery of a God beyond our understanding and the mystery of unconditional Love.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

Tsk,

Shall I go to your previous postings that display your error in understanding of homosexuality as ordered? It is disordered.

 

[LisaA]

Why do you have such a need to move the conversation from committed loving relationships to a narrow discussion of the physical expressions of that Love? The living God has had authority over all of creation well before Scripture and the Church.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

If you cannot respond to the questions, just say so instead of running down a rabbit trail and hoping no one notices. You have expressed your opinion regarding homosexuality and regarding certain Biblical passages that you claim deal with homosexuality, while simultaneously ignore the large number of Bible passages that deal with sin, sinful acts, leading others to sinful acts and ignoring the sinful acts of our brothers and sisters.

As to your question, you continue to claim that Christ’s challenge that we are to love God and love one another provide support if not assent to abnormal sexual activity. Again please check the many many many Bible passages regarding sin, including sexual sin. You might have your eyes opened.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

For your analogy to hold, you would need to claim that heterosexual sexual intercourse equates with falling on a grenade.

Do you have a better example of what you are trying to say?

I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse or simply didn’t understand the context. Tsk continues to claim that Christ’s challenge for us is to love God and love one another means that anything one could put under (his/her) definition for “love” is just fine and dandy. Tsk continues to claim that homosexual sexual activity is what Christ meant by the kind of “greatest love of all” that one lay down one’s life for a friend. Ergo Tsk equates sodomy with a Marine laying down his life for his buddies.

I beg to differ on this interpretation. I believe that acting out on same sex attraction is not love as Christ spoke of it so many times. I believe it is sinful, unhealthy and unholy. Tsk disagrees. I am trying hard to figure out on what basis other than his/her opinion that he/she comes to this rather bizarre conclusion.

So it’s not MY example, it’s tsk’s example, equating homosexual sex with “the greatest love of all.”

Lisa

 

[epan]

I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse or simply didn’t understand the context. Tsk continues to claim that Christ’s challenge for us is to love God and love one another means that anything one could put under (his/her) definition for “love” is just fine and dandy. Tsk continues to claim that homosexual sexual activity is what Christ meant by the kind of “greatest love of all” that one lay down one’s life for a friend. Ergo Tsk equates sodomy with a Marine laying down his life for his buddies.

I beg to differ on this interpretation. I believe that acting out on same sex attraction is not love as Christ spoke of it so many times. I believe it is sinful, unhealthy and unholy. Tsk disagrees. I am trying hard to figure out on what basis other than his/her opinion that he/she comes to this rather bizarre conclusion.

So it’s not MY example, it’s tsk’s example, equating homosexual sex with “the greatest love of all.”

Lisa

Thanks for explaining. The grenade example just didn’t seem to work for me.

 

[fix]

You say I am vague much like those pharisees, priests and scribes of old that needed to operate in absolutes (black and white) - They like us were unable to hear or fully grasp the wisdom teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount or the parables. Teachings that led us into the mystery of a God beyond our understanding and the mystery of unconditional Love.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

He who hears you hears Me. He who rejects you rejects Me:

No damage must be done to the harmony between faith and life: the unity of the Church is damaged not only by Christians who reject or distort the truths of faith but also by those who disregard the moral obligations to which they are called by the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor 5:9-13). The Apostles decisively rejected any separation between the commitment of the heart and the actions which express or prove it (cf. 1 Jn 2:3-6). And ever since Apostolic times the Church’s Pastors have unambiguously condemned the behaviour of those who fostered division by their teaching or by their actions.38

“the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether in its written form or in that of Tradition, has been entrusted only to those charged with the Church’s living Magisterium, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ”.41 The Church, in her life and teaching, is thus revealed as “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” ( 1 Tim 3:15), including the truth regarding moral action. Indeed, “the Church has the right always and everywhere to proclaim moral principles, even in respect of the social order, and to make judgments about any human matter in so far as this is required by fundamental human rights or the salvation of souls”.42

It is quite human for the sinner to acknowledge his weakness and to ask mercy for his failings; what is unacceptable is the attitude of one who makes his own weakness the criterion of the truth about the good, so that he can feel self-justified, without even the need to have recourse to God and his mercy. An attitude of this sort corrupts the morality of society as a whole, since it encourages doubt about the objectivity of the moral law in general and a rejection of the absoluteness of moral prohibitions regarding specific human acts, and it ends up by confusing all judgments about values.

Instead, we should take to heart the message of the Gospel parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (cf. Lk 18:9-14). The tax collector might possibly have had some justification for the sins he committed, such as to diminish his responsibility. But his prayer does not dwell on such justifications, but rather on his own unworthiness before God’s infinite holiness: "God, be merciful to me a sinner! " (Lk 18:13). The Pharisee, on the other hand, is self-justified, finding some excuse for each of his failings. Here we encounter two different attitudes of the moral conscience of man in every age. The tax collector represents a “repentant” conscience, fully aware of the frailty of its own nature and seeing in its own failings, whatever their subjective justifications, a confirmation of its need for redemption. The Pharisee represents a “self-satisfied” conscience, under the illusion that it is able to observe the law without the help of grace and convinced that it does not need mercy.

 

[tskrobacz]

He who hears you hears Me. He who rejects you rejects Me:

Thanks Forum Master…I understand the institutional position on this topic and have not claimed to speak for it. Many of the “interpretations” offerred by other participants above are that of the author and are not the ideas expressed by nor intended by my posts.

 

[Gaber]

Thanks Forum Master…I understand the institutional position on this topic and have not claimed to speak for it. Many of the “interpretations” offerred by other participants above are that of the author and are not the ideas expressed by nor intended by my posts.

I knew in my life folks who could see/hear beyond the range of normal human perception. It was kind of like knowing Radar on M.A.S.H., but for real. Know what? I think Jesus spoke in a far greater and deeper range of meaning and subtlty thatn most want to conceed Him, as it is easier to emotionalize a passeage thtn to open one’s heart. And for my part, I read Mark 4:33,34, and begin to think that we don’t really have a clue of what He was actually about from the very very few of His recorded sentences, if those are accurate.