The disorder of homosexuality

[Gaber]

Gaber,

Your link takes you to a video that apparently supports gay marriage. The notes say Peter Gomes is gay. Do you support gay marriage?

Did you watch the video?

 

[LisaA]

In my world there exists 12-Step programs (Alcoholics Anonymous, Alanon, etc) to help people overcome the effects of the disease of Alcoholism and other addictions. These programs are clearly the work of the Spirit.

Alcoholism has been recognized for many years by professional medical organizations as a primary, chronic, progressive and sometimes fatal disease.

As with Clintion, it depends on what the definition of “is” is. When the word disease is used in common parlance it means an attack on healthy body function from an outside source (bacteria, virus, toxin) in the vast majority of cases. Even such things as auto immune diseases (attack from within) may have been triggered by an outside source…environmental, utero etc.

Alcoholism is classed as a disease for societal and insurance purposes. It is an addiction that if unchecked results in death from secondary causes. IOW alcohol isn’t the cause of death but liver failure is. Unfortunately classifying alcoholism as a disease has created a growth industry in addiction treatment for everything from shopping to sex to gambling.

Addicts deserve compassion because the brain is a wonderful slave but a terrible master. If the brain is overtaken with addiction it is incredibly difficult to reverse. This is the reason I believe homosexuality is difficult to reverse if it becomse patterned into the brain. We are seeing terrible impact of pornography upon even young men as it makes them dysfunctional with respect to their wives and they express all the same destructive patterns as a heroin addict. Why we would want to encourage this by claiming that any of these self destructive behavior is “love” is beyond my comprehension. You are sowing seeds of destruction with your attitude
Lisa

 

[CopticChristian]

In my world there exists 12-Step programs (Alcoholics Anonymous, Alanon, etc) to help people overcome the effects of the disease of Alcoholism and other addictions. These programs are clearly the work of the Spirit.

Alcoholism has been recognized for many years by professional medical organizations as a primary, chronic, progressive and sometimes fatal disease.

Tsk, Tsk,

The Church has issued a document called “Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life”…found here…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

In this document there is stated “addiction/recovery have taken the place of sin and sin/salation”. If Alcoholism were a disease then this could not be.

12 steps have been declared to be a religion by the 9th and 7th circuit court of appeals.

Alcoholism is not now and never has been a disease. It is part of the DSM, diagnosis by committee, the same DSM that formerly declared homosexuality a disease that in no longer a disease.

The notion that it was a disease has a history based on corrupt research. I agree that the marketing for this has taken its toll so that you believe it to be a disease.

baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

But, these stages are based on a corrupt study that the author, himself, later refuted.

Jellinek not only published a fraudulent study, he defrauded members of his academic community, and apparently lied about his educational background to gain acceptance. Nonetheless, it was Jellinek’s “Stages of the Alcoholism” that led to diagnosing alcoholism as a disease and eventually to the medical acceptance of alcoholism as a disease. Astoundingly, the inception of the disease theory and treatment for substance abuse is based on fraud.

While many advocate for its benefits, the disease concept has proven to be far more damaging to substance user then anyone could have predicted. Therapists claim the disease concept helps the patient to understand the seriousness of [his/her] problems. But in reality, this idea backfired. The disease concept stripped the substance user of personal responsibility. A disease cannot be cured by force of will; therefore, adding the medical label transfers the responsibility from the user to caregivers. Inevitably, the users become unwilling victims, and just as inevitably they take on that role. In retrospect then, the disease concept has effectively increased alcoholism and drug use. Furthermore, its only benefit has been vast monetary reward for the professionals’ and governmental agencies responsible for providing recovery services. Specifically, it has not offered a solution for those attempting to stop abusive alcohol and drug use.

These programs are not in my opinion works of the Spirit as you say and have nothing to do with what you call primary, progressive etc as you have been inculcated into believing.

This is discussed on another thread and the issue is the disorder of homosexuality.

 

[tskrobacz]

You are completely and totally wrong. You are expressing your opinion, backed by neither natural law nor Scripture. Giving yourself to another in your view means engaging in an unnatural sexual activity. You really believe “scratching an itch” is self sacrificing love? Having homosexual relations is equivalent to laying down your life for a friend? You are raising lust to a sacrament. Please do some reading or speak to a Priest before making such unsubstantiated claims.

Lisa

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’" This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[CopticChristian]

Did you watch the video?

Gaber,

I take offense to your question and in particular because you did not answer my question.

I watched the video.

Do you support same sex marriage?

 

[tskrobacz]

Tsk, Tsk,

The Church has issued a document called “Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life”…found here…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

In this document there is stated “addiction/recovery have taken the place of sin and sin/salation”. If Alcoholism were a disease then this could not be.

12 steps have been declared to be a religion by the 9th and 7th circuit court of appeals.

Alcoholism is not now and never has been a disease. It is part of the DSM, diagnosis by committee, the same DSM that formerly declared homosexuality a disease that in no longer a disease.

The notion that it was a disease has a history based on corrupt research. I agree that the marketing for this has taken its toll so that you believe it to be a disease.

baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

But, these stages are based on a corrupt study that the author, himself, later refuted.

These programs are not in my opinion works of the Spirit as you say and have nothing to do with what you call primary, progressive etc as you have been inculcated into believing.

This is discussed on another thread and the issue is the disorder of homosexuality.

Thanks for your opinion. Those among us affected by the disease of Alcoholism in friends and family would clearly not agree and many have found spirituality and conquered this disease through the gift of the 12 step programs including many priests.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thanks for your opinion. Those among us affected by the disease of Alcoholism in friends and family would clearly not agree and many have found spirituality and conquered this disease through the gift of the 12 step programs including many priests.

Tsk,

Pleased to hear that you have found relief. Alcoholism is not a disease. This is consistent with the Chruch document comparing recovery/addiction with sin/salvation. I am grateful for anyone finding salvation.

This thread is about the disorder of homosexuality, that was once declared to be a disease by the DSM committe and it is not now a disease. There is no corollary to other behvavioral problems like alcohol. I have nothing more to say about it.

Compassion is needed for anyone struggling with anything. That is all I have to say.

 

[LisaA]

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’" This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Define love as He defines it. If you love God with all your soul you will keep His Commandments. I don’t think He commanded us to engage in every lustful behavior that Satan inspires. Please don’t pull a single verse out of the Bible, interpret it to bolster your cause while completely misinterpreting the verse and ignoring verse after verse after verse that discusses sinful behavior.

So do tell me, you believe that engaging in sodomy is equivalent to a Marine who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies? Do tell
Lisa

 

[CopticChristian]

Alcoholism is a disease and an addiction. Our modern term for addiction is what they called Demon’s in biblical times. Many suffer from this disease.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation.** I’m quite sure our brothers and sisters in committed and loving homosexual relationships would not consider the gift of their life and their love to be a disorder.**

We learn in John’s Gospel, the greatest love is not our love for God, it is our love for each other. “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” In the end, Love trumps any of our human ideas that stir division or oppression.

Tsk,

I appreciate your sentiment about a loving relationship. The question is always how do you define love.

I have spent time on this and come up with the following…from Aquinas.

Love is willing goodness to another.

Good Rabbi, why do you call me good, for God alone is good…OK

Then love is willing God to another. In other words in your loving all your thoughts, words, deeds, are attempts to act in a way that the other is oriented to God.

Homosexuality is diosrdered behavior and whatever emotions, thoughts, or deeds these people have towards one another fall out of the purvue of this definition because Homosexial behavior is sin and whatever is done other than to not act on behalf of this disordered behavior is sin based on the theachings of the OHCAC. Homoexual relations are not ordered towards willing anyone to goodnes, ie God. That is how I see it.

 

[epan]

It is my understanding that the “gay” penguins were not really "gay, but their behavior was a social bond, nothing more. When it came time to mate, nature took its course. Humans decided the “gay” aspect should be stressed, I think, so the males were housed together again to suit that agenda.

Gay Penguins Reunion: Buddy And Pedro Will Be Back Together By Spring
huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/gay-penguin-reunion_n_1093298.html

Coincidentally, there was a piece on the news yesterday about a 100 year old penguin study which was suppressed because of the perceived immorality of the penguins. Those birds are a randy bunch. No wonder they walk so funny.

 

[tskrobacz]

Tsk,

I appreciate your sentiment about a loving relationship. The question is always how do you define love.

I have spent time on this and come up with the following…from Aquinas.

Love is willing goodness to another.

Good Rabbi, why do you call me good, for God alone is good…OK

Then love is willing God to another. In other words in your loving all your thoughts, words, deeds, are attempts to act in a way that the other is oriented to God.

Homosexuality is diosrdered behavior and whatever emotions, thoughts, or deeds these people have towards one another fall out of the purvue of this definition because Homosexial behavior is sin and whatever is done other than to not act on behalf of this disordered behavior is sin based on the theachings of the OHCAC. Homoexual relations are not ordered towards willing anyone to goodnes, ie God. That is how I see it.

“these people” are our brothers and our sisters - love them as they are - not as YOU expect them to be. These people are also the mirror of the mystery of God and of Christ that we each represent. Whatever our understanding is, it surely falls far short of a God that is not limited by our finite ability to know and to Love.

 

[CopticChristian]

“these people” are our brothers and our sisters - love them as they are - not as YOU expect them to be. These people are also the mirror of the mystery of God and of Christ that we each represent. Whatever our understanding is, it surely falls far short of a God that is not limited by our finite ability to know and to Love.

Tsk,

Then you are suggesting as the Church teaches that we love our brothers and sisters. You are not suggesting that these people that have a disorder of homosexuality are to be loved in their homosexual actions. Is that correct?

 

[tskrobacz]

Define love as He defines it. If you love God with all your soul you will keep His Commandments. I don’t think He commanded us to engage in every lustful behavior that Satan inspires. Please don’t pull a single verse out of the Bible, interpret it to bolster your cause while completely misinterpreting the verse and ignoring verse after verse after verse that discusses sinful behavior.

So do tell me, you believe that engaging in sodomy is equivalent to a Marine who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies? Do tell
Lisa

I quoted the Bible verse in response to your argument that my position was not based on Scripture…As I said previously, Love is the trump card that overcomes all of our finite thinking on this subject and Love is the Soul Commandment of Jesus…it is the only way to unity. James Finley says it best when he said:

The word of the living God…
might come from the mouth of Abraham
might come from the mouth of Jesus
might come from the mouth of Mohamed
might come from the mouth of the woman at the well or from mouth of the Buddha

The word of the living God…
might come from the mouth of a Poet, from a child
Sometimes, the word of the living God comes from our own mouth
in those moments that we express what we did not know we knew

This is the word of the living God.
It knocks the bottom out of what we thought reality to be
the truth of this living word discloses, evokes hours, no - a life time, of pondering

This heart felt pondering sustains the Spirit led upheaval that leaves us without any solid footing in our ultimately unsubtantial ego self.
Riding the waves of this upheaval leads us to an utter calmness
a peace that surpasses understanding.

The word of God is like that
it tips over mountains
it drains the sea
it dissolves the foundations of who we thought ourselves to be.

---

Until we can find a way to love each individual as they are, without an expectation of change to our narrow understandings, we have not surrendered to the mystery of our faith. Faith is always an invitation to step into darkness and mystery. Any ego based certainty is most surely the opposite of such a faith.

 

[epan]

If, as studies suggest, fraternal birth order determines homosexuality in about 1/7 of male homosexuals, then how can the condition in these males considered to be disordered?

There have been several studies, and it turns out that each previous birth of a male child increases the likelihood of successive males by 28-48% (for right handed males, oddly enough). There are also significant genetic markers on the maternal side of things, and a number of twin studies.

Is it not hypocritical to use a biological argument (the ability to procreate) as a standard to call disordered what may be a perfectly normal phenomenon in nature?

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article on fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in males: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

 

[CopticChristian]

If, as studies suggest, fraternal birth order determines homosexuality in about 1/7 of male homosexuals, then how can the condition in these males considered to be disordered?

There have been several studies, and it turns out that each previous birth of a male child increases the likelihood of successive males by 28-48%. There are also significant genetic markers on the maternal side of things, and a number of twin studies.

Is it not hypocritical to use a biological argument (the ability to procreate) as a standard to call disordered what may be a perfectly normal phenomenon in nature?

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article on fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in males: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

epan,

Provide me the link for review of the studies you refer to. Thank you

 

[CopticChristian]

I quoted the Bible verse in response to your argument that my position was not based on Scripture…As I said previously, Love is the trump card that overcomes all of our finite thinking on this subject and Love is the Soul Commandment of Jesus…it is the only way to unity. James Finley says it best when he said:

The word of the living God…
might come from the mouth of Abraham
might come from the mouth of Jesus
might come from the mouth of Mohamed
might come from the mouth of the woman at the well or from mouth of the Buddha

The word of the living God…
might come from the mouth of a Poet, from a child
Sometimes, the word of the living God comes from our own mouth
in those moments that we express what we did not know we knew

This is the word of the living God.
It knocks the bottom out of what we thought reality to be
the truth of this living word discloses, evokes hours, no - a life time, of pondering

This heart felt pondering sustains the Spirit led upheaval that leaves us without any solid footing in our ultimately unsubtantial ego self.
Riding the waves of this upheaval leads us to an utter calmness
a peace that surpasses understanding.

The word of God is like that
it tips over mountains
it drains the sea
it dissolves the foundations of who we thought ourselves to be.

---

Until we can find a way to love each individual as they are, without an expectation of change to our narrow understandings, we have not surrendered to the mystery of our faith. Faith is always an invitation to step into darkness and mystery. Any ego based certainty is most surely the opposite of such a faith.

Tsk,

I asked and you did not respond. I read your prior postings and understand your plight as you asked for prayer. You appear to believe that Homosexuality as it is defined today does not correlate with some past definition. You have been asked to link to the Catholic Catechism on teaching and you link to those that support gay marriage and homosexual relationships that is counter productive to your designation as Catholic.

I do not understand why you are vague about your belief and acceptance of homosexual relationships in the context of this thread “the disorder of homosexuality”.

 

[epan]

epan,

Provide me the link for review of the studies you refer to. Thank you

Here. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

There are a number of Wikipedia articles on sexual orientation and biology with links to original studies. The articles seem to be well balanced, giving both pro and con interpretations.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

There are a number of Wikipedia articles on sexual orientation and biology with links to original studies. The articles seem to be well balanced, giving both pro and con interpretations.

Epan,

Forgive me. Wikipedia is not a source for information.

A correlation between fraternal birth order and male sexual orientation has been **suggested by research. Ray Blanchard identified the association and referred to it as the fraternal birth order effect. The theory is that the more older brothers a man has, the greater the probability is that he will have a homosexual orientation.[1] It has sometimes been called the older brother effect. It has been estimated **that 15 percent of homosexuality is due to fraternal birth order.[2]

Suggestion, Theory, Estimated. Not fact.

Read on

Bearman and Brückner (2008) argue that studies showing a fraternal birth order effect have used **nonrepresentative samples **and/or indirect reports on siblings’ sexual orientation. Their analysis, focusing on opposite-sex twins, did not find an association “between same-sex attraction and number of older siblings, older brothers, or older sisters”.[18] A study by Francis (2008), using the same Add Health survey but with broader analysis, saw a very weak correlation of male same-sex attraction with having multiple older brothers (but did find a significant negative correlation of male same-sex attraction with having older sisters.)

Two opposing views with the same data. The opposing view says the samples are non-representative, with broader analysis that the conclusions you cite are not true.

I would have to read the studies to see what the truth is.

You should not accept Wikipedia or if you do not make a conclusion without the data.

 

[epan]

Epan,

Forgive me. Wikipedia is not a source for information.

Suggestion, Theory, Estimated. Not fact.

Read on

Two opposing views with the same data. The opposing view says the samples are non-representative, with broader analysis that the conclusions you cite are not true.

I would have to read the studies to see what the truth is.

You should not accept Wikipedia or if you do not make a conclusion without the data.

I agree with you, that the original studies should be looked at. The article states that several studies repeat the findings, and that the dissenting study found an opposing trend with female siblings birth, this is also interesting.

It is beyond the scope of this site to come to any conclusions on the merit of scientific studies, but I pose the hypothetical question.

Theory is used differently in such studies than the way you are using the word to criticize the results. A theory is a proposed explanation of finding or experiments, which is open to challenge or support through further findings, experiments and analysis. For example, the theory of gravitational attraction as proposed by Newton is accepted as a sound theory, but not a fact. Indeed, when Einstein came along, the theory had to be revised.

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree with you, that the original studies should be looked at. The article states that several studies repeat the findings, and that the dissenting study found an opposing trend with female siblings birth, this is also interesting.

It is beyond the scope of this site to come to any conclusions on the merit of scientific studies, but I pose the hypothetical question.

Theory is used differently in such studies than the way you are using the word to criticize the results. A theory is a proposed explanation of finding or experiments, which is open to challenge or support through further findings, experiments and analysis. For example, the theory of gravitational attraction as proposed by Newton is accepted as a sound theory, but not a fact. Indeed, when Einstein came along, the theory had to be revised.

Epan,

The tragedy is that the Homosexual population that view and visit this site use all sorts of loopholes to have others accept their behavior and the disorder of homosexuality. Hypothetically speaking is not helpful to the cause of what this thread is about.

What if???