The Duggars Respond to Reports That Josh Duggar Was Accused of Child Molestation

[Cider]

The Duggars have said that immodest dressing causes lust in others, making it sound like these people won’t be able to control themselves or something. Its like they are putting the burden of chastity on the girls by how they dress. Btw, I feel far more modest wearing jeans or pants rather than skirts or dresses.

From the CCC

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things.** Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.**

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

 

[masondoggy]

The person who wrote the article assumes that because the Duggars were associated with Gothard.'s homeschooling system that this is what was used for counseling. Also, he assumes how the talking points were used to blame the victim. Maybe they were. Maybe they weren’t. Maybe the place where the Duggars sent Josh used this as a basis for counseling, maybe they didn’t. This is pure speculation based on the writer’s perception of what their church is like. Gothard was not their pastor or an elder in their church. All of this is speculation based on the fact that the Duggars used Gothard’s homeschooling materials and spoke at some conferences. To me it smacks of what some people have to say about all Catholic priests and molestation. It is taking a fact and making all sorts of speculations and assumptions about what might possibly be.

I think that the material’s that have been attributed to Gothard are atrocious and best used in the fireplace.

No, we don’t know for sure whether those were the materials they used to counsel those girls. BUT, after watching this show from the beginning,I do know based on statements made by Michelle about modesty/purity, they most certainly adhere to everything in those materials. She has said, multiple times right in front of the girls, that dressing a certain way stirs up desires in men that can’t be righteously fulfilled and strongly implied that it’s the immodest girls fault because the male can’t control himself. I’ve heard it out of the horses mouth enough times to be able to post that link with confidence that that is the message those girls got when their brother violated them. I have no doubt based on what I’ve seen watching that show.

This is not speculation.

 

[ringil]

Yes, but the difference is that he continues to make movies, receives awards, and is lauded in the press. He is a grown man and if you look at Wikipedia bio, he seems proud of what he did.

Nope, there are many in Hollywood who won’t work with Woody Allen.

The media are not targeting the Duggars because they are Christian (does their religion really count as Christian?) or because they are Conservative. On the other have the Duggars and being fiercely defended here because they are perceived to be some kind of voice of the Conservative family.

 

[ringil]

From the CCC

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things.** Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.**

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

Um, yes the CCC speaks of modesty, but it doesn’t speak of how immodesty can result in God allowing that person to be raped or molested.

I don’t get why you linked to the CCC.

 

[ishii]

This obsession is kind of creepy. Is it enough for you to know that Americans distrust and dislike atheists more than any other group or not?

I would be interested in seeing the Pew research which shows that Americans distrust and dislike atheists more than any other group. Of course its not the topic of this thread.

Ishii

 

[Galnextdoor]

I worked with a Catholic counselling and self development organisation for around 10 years in a companioning capacity. (Although I had opportunity to train as a counsellor, I chose not to as I knew that wasn’t my forte).

People can be affected by abuse in different extremes. Some become fiery advocates against all men even those who haven’t abused anyone. Others find they feel a bit of contempt towards victims who weren’t violated to the degree they were leading to some misplaced sympathy for a perpetrator who ‘wasn’t as bad’ as their own perpetrator.

The pathology of Josh’s actions were as much disordered as his actions. That part needs acknowledgement so that treatment can be approached in the best way by the best professionals. In some of those fundamentalist cults, a lot of emphasis is put on prayer and moral education and the science of personality disorders is forsaken, as for the heathens who don’t have God. That’s just a recipe for future disasters.

Please don’t try to analyse. As you say, you aren’t a counselor and have no training as one. I am simply asking people to read the report before they jump to conclusions.
Many people are making statements based on articles or other people’s statements.

We are talking about a specific situation. A boy, I know some people are objecting to this term, did something for which he was embarrassed and ashamed. Except for the one child , the witnesses that were awake didn’t realize he had done anything to them. They say this in the police report. We can only go by what the girls said. To do anything else and state it as fact is a sin.
The police report does not mention groping anywhere. It states that the girls were clothed.
He touched them inappropriately according to his 13 year old conscience. His sister’s were told that no one should touch them between the neck and knees. I assume, and this is my speculation, that he was told the same thing.

I am not trying to say that child molesters should go free. I am saying that before anyone villifies him, maybe we should take a look at what was exactly reported and what the rules of the family were.

Child molesters in general don’t stop what they do. It would seem that if he were an actual child molester, we would have had all kinds of victims coming out of the woodwork by now.

I am saying that in this case, maybe the press has it wrong.

My molesters continued to molest other girls. I was not the first or the last.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)Actually, it is no problem. Just hit the quote button and it pulls up what I said.

You however did the same thing to me that you told me not to do to you when you made the previous response to this post so I returned the favor. Not very Christian. I apologize, but since I just explained how to use the quote button. It shouldn’t be a problem.
(…)

The quote function does not quote text that is in a quote box.

 

[dixieagle]

To improve your understanding of what happened, you should read the actual report. A link to it has been posted to it over in a similar thread called Josh Duggar admits to molestation charges etc. in the news section of this forum. The state trooper was not a family friend. He was a Trooper who had done state inspection of the cars at the Duggars used car dealership. It was not the Duggar’s fault that he chose not to pursue and investigation. Josh Dugger was sent over 200 miles away to a Christian Ministry program. The father said he thought Josh was receiving counseling and hard labor.

I think you will find the actual report enlightening. One of the incidences of forcible fondling consisted of him touching a hole in the seat of his sisters jeans and telling her she had a hole there.
Another incident of forcible fondling consisted of him taking a blanket off of his sister and walking away with it. The sister did not realize he touched her breast when he took the blanket.

Josh was NOT sent to a “Christian ministry program”, but to some guy in Little Rock who remodeled houses (pg. 30 of the report, and according to his mother.)

The report is, indeed, enlightening, but not for the reasons you think. It appears that a serial molester (for that is what he is, no matter how you paint it) never received any kind of competent counseling. He now has several children of his own, and that is frightening.

 

[Galnextdoor]

This obsession is kind of creepy. Is it enough for you to know that Americans distrust and dislike atheists more than any other group or not?

I think you are saying this because you can’t cite any report, which goes to the credibility of what you claim. Which might also make people question other things you claim.

 

[Galnextdoor]

The quote function does not quote text that is in a quote box.

That’s weird. It does for me, but I have an old Mac. Please forgive me. I thought it did on other people’s computers or I never would have done it. I wont do it again. Again I’m sorry.

 

[LightBound]

I think you are saying this because you can’t cite any report, which goes to the credibility of what you claim. Which might also make people question other things you claim.

Oh good grief! Here are some links- now would you quit derailing the thread?

google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=do+american+dislike+atheists

psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201406/why-americans-hate-atheists

politicususa.com/2014/07/21/americans-dislike-muslims-atheists-hatred-one-way.html

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Yes, the whole no one should touch you from your neck to your knees was pretty standard parenting advice in the 80’s and 90’s. I also taught similar to my kids. It has nothing to do with relying on the kids to be the gatekeeper. No one can be with their kids 24/7 and I was a stay at home mom.

I also think there is a big difference between giving a child general advice about how to prevent a hopefully hypothetical risk from a hypothetical perpetrator in a hypothetical situation out of the parents’ control, and what happened in the Duggar case. Those parents apparently gave this advice knowing who the perpetrator is and where he is, and giving this advice INSTEAD of taking decisive steps themselves to protect their children from the threat. That’s what I find sickening.

To make an analogy; there are tips out there on “defensive driving” and how to avoid accidents. There are also tips about how to avoid carjackers who use the “bump and rob” tactic of deliberately running into a car from behind (of course, slowly enough to not cause major damage), then stealing the car from the victim when he comes out to exchange insurance information.

But if cops knew that a particular gang of carjackers was responsible for a string of such crimes, and all they did was issue tips to drivers on how to prevent the crime, and let the crime spree go on for months, and did nothing to actually put the gang behind bars all that time, I’d think most people would find those cops to be totally incompetent.

masondoggy, while I haven’t watched every Duggar show (and now, won’t watch any more), I do recall that all the wedding episodes featured a glimpse into a “birds and bees” type talk from Jim Bob, in which he emphasized how important the physical part of marriage was to men, specifically, as opposed to how the emotional side was more important for women. All this stuff really seems creepy in light of recent revealations.

 

[Galnextdoor]

But the fact that these men have molested children isn’t ignored by the media. In fact it is pretty widely known. I am aware of it and I am pretty ignorant when it comes to stuff related to Hollywood.

Woody Allen debuted his latest film Blue Jasmine in 2013. He is still being interviewed by the media and held up as a Hollywood icon.

 

[gracepoole]

I would be interested in seeing the Pew research which shows that Americans distrust and dislike atheists more than any other group. Of course its not the topic of this thread.

Ishii

pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-religious-groups/

And then there’s this.

And this.

And this, which notes that in one relatively small survey, atheists are distrusted as much as rapists.

 

[gh4]

I’ve read the reactions of this board and several other boards.
This was a child who did this. It was wrong, and I have no doubt that his parents dealt with him and this issue. We have no idea what kind of counseling or if there was counseling to anyone, the girls or Josh. And honestly, it’s none of our business.
They were all children 14 or less of age. 13, 14, 15 year old boys are very interesting creatures, one minute they do something so incredibly stupid and the next they do some thing wise beyond their years.
How many of you would honestly pick up the phone and call the police and have them come and arrest your child and question your child and have your entire family put into the system?

 

[Galnextdoor]

pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-religious-groups/

And then there’s this.

And this.

And this, which notes that in one relatively small survey, atheists are distrusted as much as rapists.

None of these reports say that people would rather have their children marry a terrorist rather than an atheist. Just so you know, not all Muslims are terrorists.

In the first study Evangelical Christians, which I think the Duggars are an extreme example, are viewed at 44 percent, Atheists are viewed 41 percent and Muslims are viewed at 40 percent.

The other reports have Muslims viewed much lower than atheists.

So these studies support the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Maybe you could read the Duggar police report another time?

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Except for the one child , the witnesses that were awake didn’t realize he had done anything to them. They say this in the police report. We can only go by what the girls said. To do anything else and state it as fact is a sin.
The police report does not mention groping anywhere.** It states that the girls were clothed. **

You really need to reread the report.

._____ said that _____ touched _____ on the skin. _____ said _____ was sitting down and had pulled _____ dress up because it had a hole in it. _____ said _____ had pants on under the dress and _____ pulled them down. _____ said _____ touched _____ private [the Duggars’ euphemism for vagina]. It felt weird.

Galnextdoor:

He touched them inappropriately according to his 13 year old conscience.

I’m not sure how that comment relates to the quote from the police report.

 

[gracepoole]

None of these reports say that people would rather have their children marry a terrorist rather than an atheist.

They weren’t meant to. I wasn’t responding to you in this post.

Just so you know, not all Muslims are terrorists.

I’m glad I have you as a progressive voice to instruct me.

In the first study Evangelical Christians, which I think the Duggars are an extreme example, are viewed at 44 percent, Atheists are viewed 41 percent and Muslims are viewed at 40 percent.

The other reports have Muslims viewed much lower than atheists.

So these studies support the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Really? Preferring a rapist to an atheist is saying the exact opposite? I think we need some remedial reading lessons here.

Maybe you could read the Duggar police report another time?

You have yet to quote anything from said report. Might want to do so before accusing others of not having read it.

 

[Faith1960]

The girls seem to be close to Josh, rather than distancing themselves from him. They spend time with him, chaperoned his dates with Anna, sought out his help with wedding invitations, etc.

 

[silver_moon]

That would make me feel a little better if we lived in a world where every incident of sexual abuse was reported. Just referring to child sexual abuse, it is extremely under-reported. From the Children’s Assessment Center of Houston:

In other words, as many as 99 out of 100 instances of child sexual abuse are never reported. When a friend of mine disclosed that she had been sexually abused, I found out that at least half of my female friends and family members had been sexually abused, assaulted or raped as well. Out of all of them, only one ever reported it to the authorities (and that guy was acquitted).

Gordon, I agree with every word of every post you’ve written on this thread. It is absolutely true that once someone discloses they often if not always find others have similar stories but never shared them.