The Early Christians were Sola Scriptura

[Cat_Herder]

Fair enough. Please show me some teachings of the other seven books, not in the 66 that are important for my life.

I have to give you a rain check for now as it is time for Mass. But I will fill you in later.

In the meantime, please ponder Genesis 3:15.

 

[Dokimas]

What does it mean to be at enmity with satan?

What must a person not have to be at enmity with satan?

All Christians that live for Jesus are at emnity with satan.

 

[guanophore]

These are people being described and guess what, go read Romans 3 and see if you are among the one’s He hates and start in verse 9. I was in there and so is everyone that ever lived. Do you forget he drowned the entire planet? Was that out of love? More like disgust

Nothing God does is separated from His love. When He banished Adam and Eve, it was because He did not want them to eat of the Tree of Life and live eternally in a state of separation from Himself.

When He destroys sin and sinners, it is because of His holiness. Disgust for sin is also a reflection of His Love and Justice.

He chose to demonstrate His love, mercy and grace. You cannot love perfectly and not also hate?

Right. But love and hate are not opposites. Both are reflections of His love. The opposite of Love is indifference. No one gets passionate enough to hate that about which they cannot feel concern or connection.

Do you love Christians, then you must hate the inquisitions and the perpetrators.

Such a statement indicates a very impoverished understanding of the inquisitions. If by perpetrarors you are talking about people whose sins damage the innocent, then I agree.

You have a god not of the Bible, but of your own imagination;

Such is the fruit of Sola Scriptura. Each person who reads may create the meaning from their own imagination.

I know what the Scripture teaches because I am born again by His grace alone and it is you that is the heretic and blasphemer against a Holy , Holy , Holy Being you no nothing about and should be very very fearful of because not only can He kill you physically, but He controls your souls destiny despite what you decide; He decides, not you.    Read Romans 3 and see how bad the disease of sin is, then kep reading and discover salvation.

Pat, CAF is not a venue for you to spew your anti-Catholic hatred, or for you to publicly judge the souls of other members. It is also not a venue for you to evangelize people to your “bible christian” viewpoint.

If you wish to contrast and compare beliefs, you are welcome here. If you want to call people names and spew fire and brimstone, then you are posting on the wrong site.

I would love to say more, but unlike God I cannot express anger and sin not; therefore I restrain myself by His grace.

Barely, apparently.

I would rather forgive you for your ignorance; for I was once just as ignorant concerning the nature of sin and the justice of God.

If people just spent more time bathing in the word of God, then nonsense like this might be reduced to a minimum and we are commanded to learn the Bible.

We are not commanded to learn the Bible apart from the faith that produced it.

 

[Cat_Herder]

All Christians that live for Jesus are at emnity with satan.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:22[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Final Warning.
Stay on topic, stop with the personal attacks or some of us will be taking a vacation.

 

[Pat_De]

No, on the contrary, I was taught this in the Protestant Seminary I attended for three years while I was lapsed from Catholicism. It is historical fact, not just “Catholic fact”.

How do you think it is different? I agree, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, but the doctrines of the Church have not changed from the Apostolic times until now.

If a person has a well rounded education, no matter who provides it, all the perspecitves and biases will be explored. It is regrettable that your own Catholic education was abysmal. You have a chance now here on CAF to get it corrected, if you are able to open your heart to God’s call.

**

And upon what do you base your certainty?

What makes your certainty more credible than the Word of God?

I am glad you can see that the Early Fathers and the Scriptures do get twisted. This is exactly lthe reason they cannot be used as “final authority”. It is also the reason why we need the gift of infallibility. If Jesus did not preserve His Word in the Church where He placed it, then the Gospel would have become corrupted.

You are right, and in fact, this practice you describe is very common today. People will take one verse of scripture, remove it from it’s context, and use it to “prove” that a Truth infallibly preserved by the HS in the Church for 2000 years is “false”. It is a gross misuse of scripture,and a dangerous rejection of the Revelation of God.

The fact that God has preserved revelation outside of Scripture is in itself a miracle, just as is the preservation of scripture.

I am curious to know what you consider to be a “verifiable miracle”? I am also wondering on what basis you accept the book of Genesis, since this is God’s revelation as it was preserved in Sacred Tradition for thousands of years, and most of that is not attested to with “verifiable miracles”.

No, but what is surprising is that the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints (paradosis) was lost to the Protestants during the Reformation. The paradosis occurs through the Apostolic succession, and when people separate themselves from it, some portion of the Divine Deposit of Faith is lost. So much has been lost to Protestants over the last 500 years that many of you now believe the church “added” to the revelation, or put in “extra”, because they don’t even realize that what they received is an abbreviated version of the Deposit.**

All nice talk about your church, but Scripture says the church Jesus is building is yet to be revealed; so what makes you believe you belong to the church Jesus is building? If the apostles were fallible and Peter the worse as recorded in Scripture; why should I believe the Catholic magisterium, made of fallible men just as the apostles who were very fallible; only they were given mircles, signs and wonders to assist in getting the church Jesus continues to build going, over what Scripture claims for itself, which they are infallible and inerrant? Who do you believe inspired the Scriptures? Do you believe they are inspired by God Himself? If so, then you believe in circular reasoning by faith in the Author of Scripture, which I would agree.

 

[PRmerger]

You are showing you don’t understand my position.

Yes. I believe your position is untenable.

John the Baptist said he needed to decrease so Jesus could increase.

Amen! Was this John the Baptist speaking, or the Holy Spirit?

Paul said God uses people to plant seed and others to water and they are NOTHING so that God can be everything.

Amen! Was this Paul speaking, or the Holy Spirit?

Why do you make the CC equal with Jesus?

Without the CC, the Body of Christ, you serve an Jesus that’s been severed from His Body; a decapitated Lord.

It’s against clear teaching from J the B and Paul.

Interesting that you attribute teachings to John the Baptist and Paul. Did not the Holy Spirit speak through them?

 

[PRmerger]

All nice talk about your church, but Scripture says the church Jesus is building is yet to be revealed; so what makes you believe you belong to the church Jesus is building?

The same belief that make you feel you’re part of the church Jesus is building.

If the apostles were fallible and Peter the worse as recorded in Scripture; why should I believe the Catholic magisterium, made of fallible men just as the apostles who were very fallible;

Because each and every time you read the Bible you are acknowledging that there were fallible men who infallibly discerned that the Gospel of Mark was inspired but the Gospel of Thomas was not.

Who do you believe inspired the Scriptures?

The Holy Spirit.

Do you believe they are inspired by God Himself?

Indeed.

If so, then you believe in circular reasoning by faith in the Author of Scripture, which I would agree.

Not sure what this means.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pat De,

PRmerger gave an excellent response to your questions. Let me add a comment or two…

All nice talk about your church, but Scripture says

Now, the Scripture you are speaking about - came from the Catholic Church in about the year 400AD. The abridged version you are probably working working with can only trace its history to the 16th Century. But, let’s continue…

the church Jesus is building is yet to be revealed; so what makes you believe you belong to the church Jesus is building?

If you look at Matthew 16 - Christ revealed He was building His Church of Peter. This is an important concept, for it set the process of development of Christ’s Church in motion, and then it dramatically accelerates when the Holy Spirit descended on the young Church on Pentecost Sunday (Acts 2)

If the apostles were fallible and Peter the worse as recorded in Scripture; why should I believe the Catholic magisterium,

God chose to build His Chruch on sinful men. And, you are right - Peter denied Christ! But, this did not thwart Christ’s Power to bring men to His Divine Love through the Church He founded - the Catholic Church

made of fallible men just as the apostles who were very fallible;

Do you recall, Pat De, that Christ promised Peter that the Gates of Hell would not prevail - (Matt 16:18) and that means that God wins the final battle with the Church He founded.

only they were given mircles, signs and wonders to assist in getting the church Jesus continues to build going,

Personally, when you consider that the Catholic Church has taught the same doctrine for 2,000 years - the Real Presence is really Christ’s Body and Blood - not a memorial, Confession of sin to priests by people who are sorry for their sins brings on God’s forgiveness, Confirmation - the laying on of hands acknowledging that the Holy Spirit has a special indwelling in this person, etc.

over what Scripture claims for itself, which they are infallible and inerrant?

Who determined that the Scriptures were infallible and inerrant, Pat De, - did you ever wonder why the ‘Gospel of St. Thomas’ was not included? The answer is the Catholic Church.

Who do you believe inspired the Scriptures?

The Holy Spirit, Pat De!

Do you believe they are inspired by God Himself?

Yes. Who do you think inspired the Scriptures?

If so, then you believe in circular reasoning by faith in the Author of Scripture, which I would agree.

I do not understant your statement, Pat De… If we believe Christ is the Second Person fof the Blessed Trinity, that He founded His Chruch on Peter and His Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Sacred Scripture, and His Church determined out of all the literature presented, which was inspired and which wasn’t - and the Chruch He founded on Peter - the First Pope - is still leading men to Christ through the Catholic Church lead by Pope Benedict XVI… how is circular reasoning?

God bless

 

[elvisman]

The church is not God. Unlike God, it can contradict.

**Then you deny the very words of Christ:
Acts 9:4-5:
*He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ***
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Saul was persecuting the Church - and Jesus told him the he was persecuting HIM. He and his Church are inseperable.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dokimas,

I don’t believe I overlooked your posts! Ah, I guess age is catching up with me…

The church is not God. Unlike God, it can contradict.

From the looks of things, it appears that the fact that God has decided to work His Plan of Salvaton through sinful men. I guess it is either you believe God’s Revelation or you have come up with some other plan that you believe in. It appears that you believe in something Dokimas, but, that is not the issue.

The way I see it - if the Catholic Church was just a group of sinful men that were not guided by God - then, they would not have this body of belief that has withstood every imaginable attack for almost 2,000 years - and have still taught the same doctirne! Think about just these two examples:

1.) As recorded in John 6 and the Synoptic Gospels of the Last Supper Christ said “This is My Body” and this is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years and this is what Protestants have denied since the 16th Century.

2.) As recorded in John 20, Christ delegated the Power of God to forgive sin to men and this is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years and this is what Protestants have denied since the 16th Century.

Since you can not produce any evidence that the Bible - you know, the books identified by the Catholic Church as the revealed Word of God - says it is the ONLY source of truth. Then it would appear that there really is no argument - just a wishful thinking to maintain a position.

 

[simspt]

All nice talk about your church, but Scripture says the church Jesus is building is yet to be revealed; so what makes you believe you belong to the church Jesus is building? If the apostles were fallible and Peter the worse as recorded in Scripture; why should I believe the Catholic magisterium, made of fallible men just as the apostles who were very fallible; only they were given mircles, signs and wonders to assist in getting the church Jesus continues to build going, over what Scripture claims for itself, which they are infallible and inerrant? Who do you believe inspired the Scriptures? Do you believe they are inspired by God Himself? If so, then you believe in circular reasoning by faith in the Author of Scripture, which I would agree.

Fallible people recognized as authoritative ancient writings that were written by fallible people and canonized. It was an authoritative decision by fallible people that led to your faith in those writings being trustworthy testimony. These same fallible people that recognized which writings were trustworthy viewed many things inspired including councils and other writings by early Church fathers.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Simspt,

As one fallible person to another - great post!

God bless

Fallible people recognized as authoritative ancient writings that were written by fallible people and canonized. It was an authoritative decision by fallible people that led to your faith in those writings being trustworthy testimony. These same fallible people that recognized which writings were trustworthy viewed many things inspired including councils and other writings by early Church fathers.

 

[Nicea325]

**Then you deny the *very ***words of Christ:
Acts 9:4-5:
*He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ***
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Saul was persecuting the Church - and Jesus told him the he was persecuting HIM. He and his Church are inseperable.

Very true elvisman,Christ & His Church are ONE,not two entire separate entities not related at all.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, we all agree the early Christians were persecuated by Rome, for 300 years.

However, fortunes changed dramatically when the church became legal in 313 and the official state religion in 383.

• The first Ecumenical Council was only possible because of these changes in Rome.
• Rome then spread the seeds of Christianity across Europe as the empire was failing.

Then the Catholic Church preserved many precious things through the middle ages.

Actually, the seeds of Christianity were spread long before the One Faith became legal, or the empire failed (centuries after Christianity spread over the known world). The faith spread beginning on Pentecost, when all the pilgrims returned home after the feast, and dramatically upon the diaspora (after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD). Paul and his associates had spread Christianity throughout the Greek speaking Empire before the NT was written. It is true that Roman rule, roads, and politics enabled this to happen, but it was not because of Rome. More in spite of Rome.

 

[guanophore]

No one claims that the Church is impeccable (unable to sin).

Peter, for example, denied Christ on many occasions. But he still got the keys and the order to tend the sheep.

Indeed this is exactly what we claim. The Church, because she has Christ as her Head, and the HS as her soul, is unable to sin. When the fallible human members of her fall from grace, their relationship with the Body is wounded or separated by sin. All the members of the Body that are still alive on earth can become separated from the One Body by sin. Those saints who make up the suffering (purgatory) and the triumphant (perfected) saints can no longer fall from grace, or sin, because they are forever preserved by His grace.

 

[guanophore]

The things we need to know for our salvation are contained within it’s pages

This is a good example of an extrabiblical doctrine of men. It is a concept that was not taught by the Apostles. The Scriptures lead one to Christ, for there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. But Christ founded a Church, and arranged for all those who came to Him for salvation to become members of it. He gave this Church His teaching and pastoring authority, and the responsibility to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

If Scripture was all we needed, why would He do all this?

 if you believe these words found in Paul's letter to the Romans and there are many similar passages throughout the bible. If you believe these and are assured of eternal life through your belief in the sacrifice of Christ. What more is there that is extra biblical that you feel is essential?

These verses are in Scripture because the NT is a Catholic book. The whole NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. The Catholics that wrote, promulgated, canonized and protected the Scripture never intended it to contail all that is “essential”. In fact, Scripture has no list of what is “essential” and what is not. This is also an extrabiblical notion.

 

[guanophore]

We have the bible, we know it’s inspired, the facts essential to our salvation are contained in it. (Sola Scriptura) The knowledge that the gospel of Thomas is not inspired is not essential to our salvation.

This is a great example of avoiding the whole question entirely. In fact, I have heard from other Sola Scripturists on CAF that “the doctrine of Sola Scriptura assumes a canon”. In this way, they can avoid the issue all together of where the Bible originated.

They like to skip over that part (the formation of the canon) because it is all about Church authority. they love to jump ahead to the point where “we can both agree that the Bible is inspired, right? So lets move on”.

In fact, the above definition of Sola Scriptura is different than many other definitions that are given. This is because this doctrine is not found itself within the scripture (an extrabiblical doctrine). One would think that a doctrine this important would be found in Scripture. since it is not, it is a self refuting doctrine.

The notion that certain truths are “essential” and some are not is another extrabiblical notion. There is no such distinction anywhere to be found in Scripture.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Indeed this is exactly what we claim.

Sorry, I wasn’t precise enough. You are correct, the Church as a whole is indefectible.

Individual members of the Church Militant can and do sin. The Church Triumphant and Church Suffering (in Purgatory) do not.

 

[guanophore]

It is no more circular thaN saying only the Catholic Church can tell us what is scripture because the scripture tells us we do.

I agree, Sy. The Church gets her authority from Christ, and it is attested to by Scripture, but the Church is not authoritative because scripture says so. In fact, Scripture says “all authority comes from God”.