The Early Church Fathers Protestant-Style

[Timothy_James]

Yep there are stories like this that go both ways. My wife, for example, was evangelical prior to conversion. My favorite author, G.K. Chesterton, was Anglican. Generally though Protestants who become Catholic can speak highly of their former Protestant faith. Not always but this is something that I have not seen done the other way around.

Probably because most Catholics, at least the ones I have met who are now Protestant, are bitter because they were wronged somehow while they were Catholic. And also because they believe that the Roman Church does not preach the Gospel of Salvation.

For example, the Rev. Charles Chiniquy, who wrote those books in the 1800s, was wronged tremendously during his time as a Catholic. He was practically forced to leave the church. I don’t think that the case is the same with those who leave Evangelical Denominations. It’s just my opinion, but I have heard too many stories of priestly rape, and nuns who were as cruel as they come, to believe otherwise. I do not mean to belittle the Roman Church. I am simply telling you what I have heard. My own father said that the nuns where he went to Catholic School were some of the worst people he ever met in his life. Not only were they bad Catholics but they were just bad people in general. And my dad told me that in the public schools he never saw so many bullies as he did in the Catholic Schools.

Sorry, I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, but this is what I have heard from people. I’m not going to lie and say I have not heard this. Yet I have not heard the same criticisms of Protestant churches. I have heard people criticize Protestants (especially Fundamentalists) but not in the same way. I suppose a legalistic ideology will do that to people. That’s just my observation. I could be wrong, but that’s what I have seen.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That’s strange, that’s the same reason my father believes he became a born again Christian. Also the same reason all the former Catholics in our church believe they are born again Christians. About 35% of our church are former Catholics, including the pastor and his wife.

.

Not sure what to tell ya. You asked, I explained

BTW, are you saying that you turned to Catholicism by grace alone through faith alone, and that the Holy Spirit has you persevere as a Catholic. Very similar to Calvinism. Very Protestant in your wording

I wasn’t explaining my thoughts on salvation. You asked me why Catholics remain Catholic. I told you why I do. What I was saying was the Holy Spirit converted my heart, convinced me of my sin and that I am a sinner and my need to repent and trust in our Lord. Becoming a “new creation”. You would call this a “born again experience” no? Then out of obedience, and by His grace, I turned to His Church. The same grace which led me here, keeps me here. I am thankful. I did not, and do not, deserve it.

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

Conversion is a simple thing that just happens. Are you gonna say just because there had been Protestant pastors who converted to Catholicism mean that Protestantism is not true and not inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scott Hahn for an example was a very anti-Catholic and famous Protestant scholar. Yet he became Catholic and wrote a great book called “Home sweet Rome”. So is your reason a good reason? Not really, but instead of listening to your father, why don’t you go through and see what the church truly teaches?

Of course I’m not going to say that. Your question came right out of left field. I was just pointing out why my father likes this book so much. I don’t know where you got the rest of that idea. Are you trying to accuse me of something I didn’t say to start an argument? I hope you are not.

And BTW, I have done a lot of scholarship my self. But I’m just trying to point out my upbringing. I read the book myself. It’s a great read, but personally I think Chiniquy exaggerates a lot. Still a great read though.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Probably because most Catholics, at least the ones I have met who are now Protestant, are bitter because they were wronged somehow while they were Catholic. And also because they believe that the Roman Church does not preach the Gospel of Salvation.

Yes it has been my experience too in reading some author’s reasons for leaving that they are not leaving the Catholic Church, but what they have come to believe is the Catholic Church.

My own father said that the nuns where he went to Catholic School were some of the worst people he ever met in his life. Not only were they bad Catholics but they were just bad people in general.

Exactly.

Sorry, I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, but this is what I have heard from people. I’m not going to lie and say I have not heard this. Yet I have not heard the same criticisms of Protestant churches. I have heard people criticize Protestants (especially Fundamentalists) but not in the same way.

My wife’s father told her he never wanted to see or talk to her again after her conversion. Should we take this to mean that all Protestants feel this way and paint with such a broad brush as your favorite author does?

God bless you

 

[Timothy_James]

I wasn’t explaining my thoughts on salvation. You asked me why Catholics remain Catholic. I told you why I do. What I was saying was the Holy Spirit converted my heart, convinced me of my sin and that I am a sinner and my need to repent and trust in our Lord. Becoming a “new creation”. You would call this a “born again experience” no? Then out of obedience, and by His grace, I turned to His Church. The same grace which led me here, keeps me here. I am thankful. I did not, and do not, deserve it.

That statement sounds completely Protestant. What faith were you a member of before you became Catholic?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That statement sounds completely Protestant. What faith were you a member of before you became Catholic?

None I was agnostic.

God bless you

 

[Timothy_James]

My wife’s father told her he never wanted to see or talk to her again after her conversion. Should we take this to mean that all Protestants feel this way and paint with such a broad brush as your favorite author does?

I think you’re confusing my father, and my father’s favorite author. The two are not the same person.

My father does not like the memories of his days as a Catholic. But in reality he left the Catholic Church for theological reasons, not because of the people he didn’t like. The Holy Spirit gave him the grace to open his eye and see the truth. But that still won’t change his feelings about these his bad memories as a Catholic. Same thing with the other former Catholics I know. They have had bad experiences in the Roman Church. And they’re bitter about them. But they didn’t become born again Christians because of those reasons. They became Born Again because the Holy Spirit gave them the grace to accept Jesus as their savior and be born again. But even though this is the case, they still have bad memories. You can’t take someone’s memories away. As Christians we should forgive, but we still remember. We’re not God. We’re sinners saved by grace. And that doesn’t wash the memories away.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Probably because most Catholics, at least the ones I have met who are now Protestant, are bitter because they were wronged somehow while they were Catholic. And also because they believe that the Roman Church does not preach the Gospel of Salvation.

For example, the Rev. Charles Chiniquy, who wrote those books in the 1800s, was wronged tremendously during his time as a Catholic. He was practically forced to leave the church. I don’t think that the case is the same with those who leave Evangelical Denominations. It’s just my opinion, but I have heard too many stories of priestly rape, and nuns who were as cruel as they come, to believe otherwise. I do not mean to belittle the Roman Church. I am simply telling you what I have heard. My own father said that the nuns where he went to Catholic School were some of the worst people he ever met in his life. Not only were they bad Catholics but they were just bad people in general. And my dad told me that in the public schools he never saw so many bullies as he did in the Catholic Schools.

Sorry, I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, but this is what I have heard from people. I’m not going to lie and say I have not heard this. Yet I have not heard the same criticisms of Protestant churches. I have heard people criticize Protestants (especially Fundamentalists) but not in the same way. I suppose a legalistic ideology will do that to people. That’s just my observation. I could be wrong, but that’s what I have seen.

There is always a difference between hearing things and seeing things. My teacher who was in a Catholic school said the nuns in her school were the best people and she concurred that she could not have lived without nuns in her life. So yes, everyone’s experience might be different, but why don’t you go and experience the real thing? Don’t allow people to make the Church look bad. I was once like that too until I myself sought out for the Church.

 

[Timothy_James]

None I was agnostic.

Oh. Didn’t your parents have any type of faith? Or your grandparents?

 

[Timothy_James]

There is always a difference between hearing things and seeing things. My teacher who was in a Catholic school said the nuns in her school were the best people and she concurred that she could not have lived without nuns in her life. So yes, everyone’s experience might be different, but why don’t you go and experience the real thing? Don’t allow people to make the Church look bad. I was once like that too until I myself sought out for the Church.

Well, maybe you’re just hearing one side of my story. My cousin went to a different Catholic School, in the same town though, and he didn’t have any problems. My father believes it was just that particular order of nuns. There was something wrong with them.

BTW, Why at this point in my life would I go to a Catholic School?

And do you seriously think that my father would have allowed me to experience the same things he went through? Why? For an experiment? I don’t think so.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I think you’re confusing my father, and my father’s favorite author. The two are not the same person.

I thought we were talking about the author. I am sorry for your father’s experiences but I think he is on the right track with knowing that, in they end, they were being bad people. Something, because of our fallen nature, all of us are capable of. Catholic, Protestant, Atheist. All of us. People arn’t bad because they’re Catholic, we’re bad because of our fallen nature. Sin.

God bless you

 

[Timothy_James]

I thought we were talking about the author. I am sorry for your father’s experiences but I think he is on the right track with knowing that, in they end, they were being bad people. Something, because of our fallen nature, all of us are capable of. Catholic, Protestant, Atheist. All of us. People arn’t bad because they’re Catholic, we’re bad because of our fallen nature. Sin.

That all sounds so nice. But the New Testament says that the way people act shows you what is in their hearts. It shows you what they are and who their real father is. So if this many former Catholics are bitter against the church, it’s telling you something is wrong there. You don’t get so many bitter people if the organization is just swell. These bad Catholics might be Catholics, but they are not Christians.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Oh. Didn’t your parents have any type of faith? Or your grandparents?

Sure my mother would say she is Lutheran and my father would say he is Catholic. None of this was anything that was instilled in me though. Christ found me in the bastion of my relativism and agnosticism, college. 1200 miles away from home. If the Holy Spirit could convert my heart there, it is true then that all things are possible with God.

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

Sure my mother would say she is Lutheran and my father would say he is Catholic. None of this was anything that was instilled in me though. Christ found me in the bastion of my relativism and agnosticism, college. 1200 miles away from home. If the Holy Spirit could convert my heart there, it is true then that all things are possible with God.

Okay, so maybe you’re a born again Christian who calls himself a Catholic. There are a lot of those. But my feeling is that it is the minority in the Roman Church.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

That all sounds so nice. But the New Testament says that the way people act shows you what is in their hearts. It shows you what they are and who their real father is. So if this many Catholics are bitter against the church, it’s telling you something is wrong there. You don’t get so many bitter people if the organization is just swell. These bad Catholics might be Catholics, but they are not Christians.

A few people who are bitter against the Church does not make the Church wrong. Jesus also said His Church will be persecuted.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That all sounds so nice. But the New Testament says that the way people act shows you what is in their hearts.

We are all sinners Tim.

It shows you what they are and who their real father is. So if this many Catholics are bitter against the church, it’s telling you something is wrong there. You don’t get so many bitter people if the organization is just swell. These bad Catholics might be Catholics, but they are not Christians.

Truth is not a popularity contest. There were people who were bitter and reviled Christ when He walked the earth, but He was, “the way, the truth and the life.” Furthermore He warned us that if they persecuted Him they would persecute us.

BTW one cannot be Catholic and not Christian.

God bless you

 

[Timothy_James]

A few people who are bitter against the Church does not make the Church wrong. Jesus also said His Church will be persecuted.

I didn’t say “A few people”. The impression I was trying to give was that a LOT of people are like this, especially the clergy, such as the nuns, and not just the priests. No offense to the Roman clergy, but I just know too many people who don’t like the Roman clergy, including many Catholics.

 

[Timothy_James]

We are all sinners Tim.
Truth is not a popularity contest. There were people who were bitter and reviled Christ when He walked the earth, but He was, “the way, the truth and the life.” Furthermore He warned us that if they persecuted Him they would persecute us. BTW one cannot be Catholic and not Christian.

Of course I know that technically you can’t be a Catholic and not a Christian. When I said Catholic and not Christian, I meant those who have been baptized, received communion, gone to confession, have been confirmed, etc. but the devil is still in their hearts and they do not know God. They have received all the sacraments, but have never been converted. Such as when Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders of his time that their father was Satan, and when John says in 1 John 4: 20-21: If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.. And again when Paul says in Romans 9:6-7: But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham…

That’s what I meant.

 

[Timothy_James]

You know I get the feeling that tomorrow morning I will turn on the computer and find out that I’ve been banned. I didn’t mean to offend anyone, but the things I’ve said here are little different from the things that other people who were banned said. I guess you can’t come on here as a Protestant and stay without being banned.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Matthew 7:16-20: “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

Of course I know that technically you can’t be a Catholic and not a Christian. When I said Catholic and not Christian, I meant those who have been baptized, received communion, gone to confession, have been confirmed, etc. but the devil is still in their hearts and they do not know God. They have received all the sacraments, but have never been converted. Such as when Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders of his time that their father was Satan, and when John says in 1 John 4: 20-21: If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.. And again when Paul says in Romans 9:6-7: But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham…

That’s what I meant.

I understood what you meant, but I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that one can be Catholic and not Christian. With that being said I think we have derailed this thread. If you have further questions not regarding the ECFs and Sola Scriptura I would encourage you to open a new thread. Not because I haven’t enjoyed our conversation but because this just isn’t the thread for it.

God bless and, again, welcome to the forums.