The Early Church Fathers Protestant-Style

[Timothy_James]

Not ony are you contradictory, but you still have not provided the proof for your position

I’ve posted plenty of quotes, and I do not contradict myself. If anyone is being contradictory it is those on here who say that the RCC has kept the same faith, and not invented anything new, yet at the same time they can’t find any proof in the Bible or the ANF to prove their positions. The only proof they do offer is proof that doesn’t even back their argument, and sometimes even contradicts it. Being a spin doctor and trying to spin an ancient account to suite your purposes is not proof.

For example, someone posted this to prove Mary was immaculate, and that the ANF believed it: **“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235)." **

I found this quote in Hippolytus’ fragments in the online Catholic Encyclopedia. This quote is a poor translation. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a better translation. And it’s plain as day that this quote isn’t even talking about Mary, but about Jesus. Yet it was posted to try to prove that the ANF believed in Mary’s immaculate conception.

It was a quote posted to deceive. Yet you all claim that you have proven your positions, but instead you post quotes that don’t even refer to your positions.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has this quote translated like this: "And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness. But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold."

newadvent.org/fathers/0502.htm

It’s not even speaking about Mary. It’s all about Jesus. It only proves that Jesus was sinless. So therefore using this quote did nothing for your argument. But no matter what I say it will fall on deaf ears, because you think that a quote which has nothing to do with Mary somehow does, and to say otherwise is illogical to you. It’s ridiculous. Am I dealing with people who are any older than 10 years old? You speak of logic, where is the logic in this?

Derived truths vs original truths - this is just silly. Sure, a historian can look at the American Revolution and come up with a “derived truth” that uses convoluted logic, to somehow prove that Great Britain actually won that war. It still won’t mean that GB won the war. Supposedly derived truth cannot change history. The historical events remain the same. Your derived truth is nothing more than man made tradition. The same exact kind that Jesus condemned. Hey, tell me this, did Jesus or his Apostles believe in “derived truth”?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I’ve posted plenty of quotes, and I do not contradict myself.

John you are contradicting yourself. You say on one hand the the PNFs wrote too far after Christ but those who wrote 1500 years after (the Reformers) are fine. Completely inconsistent. Because it’s your ***opinion *** that the reformers wrote “nothing but the Bible” does not change the fact that they wrote 1500 years after Christ. Plus you run into the problem that some of the the Reformers had very Catholic beliefs on things like baptism, communion and Mary but yet you reject these things on one hand but state that the Reformers stayed to the Bible. Completely inconsistent.

If anyone is being contradictory it is those on here who say that the RCC has kept the same faith, and not invented anything new, yet at the same time they can’t find any proof in the Bible or the ANF to prove their positions.

Same argument you used as John. You even admit that the Baptist faith is different from only 200 years ago yet you seem to take big issue that Catholicism has come to better understandings of its teachings after 2000 years.

Back to the topic John, prove your opinions with facts. Actually try to answer the OPs topic; where is SS in the ECFs. Not just SS but your modern spin on it.

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

We’ve discussed this, the 8 books you referenced are not all of his works. He wrote thousands of works and hundreds of homilies. Reject it, that’s fine it’s off topic anyways. Where is SS among the ANFs?

A lot of time? You’re not being truthful. In the thread in question (found here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214443) you wondered at 9:34 if they were fake, then 17 minutes later, at 9:51, said that you thought they were because you had found, what you thought were, all of his works at newadvent. Setting aside that newadvent did not list all of his works, you spent 17 minutes on it…

Get back on topic John, where is SS in the ANFs?

God bless

I’m sure you found that site with this quotes in less that 17 minutes. I went through every one of his books in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I looked through every one, trying to find the word Mary twice, and then again trying to find the word immaculate. The quote is no where to be found. I found a lot of references to Mary, but none of them were this. And you still haven’t told me where this quote is from. Because you don’t know!!! You just copied what someone else said. You found a website which provided you with this quote and that’s all you did. You don’t have a clue where this quote is from, do you? If you do, then show me. I want to read the entire document.

If there are so many works of his and so many homilies, then please show me where this quote is from. Your dodging the question. I’m sure Origen wrote a lot, but how much of what he wrote is still in existence?

Only a small part of Origen’s writings has come down to us, but this fills volumes.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I’m sure you found that site with this quotes in less that 17 minutes.

No I was saying that you spent 17 minutes on it. 17 minutes, that you say was enough, to read all of his works.

And you still haven’t told me where this quote is from. Because you don’t know!!! You just quoted what someone else said. You don’t have a clue where this quote is from, do you? If you do, then show me. I want to read the entire document.

Because you are demanding the context. It is referenced, it’s part of his homilies. There are hundreds. I am trying to find the context, but the quote is found within his homilies. Like I said before, reject the quote, I don’t care it’s off topic. to conclude that the quote is a hoax because you can’t find it in 8 works that you spent 17 minutes reading is mroe faulty logic on your part but we are use to this from you John.

Your dodging the question. I’m sure Origen wrote a lot, but how much of what he wrote is still in existence?

I thought he wrote just the 8 works you thought?..

Get back to the topic John; SS among the ECFs

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

No wonder my father got sick of this site. You’re impossible. Common sense doesn’t do anything here, because you have “derived truth”. Oh boy!!!

It only brings frustration to Protestants, because the obvious is ignored. And people just repeat the same of things over and over. They point fingers, but have nothing to back their own arguments.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No wonder my father got sick of this site. You’re impossible. Common sense doesn’t do anything here, because you have “derived truth”. Oh boy!!!

It only brings frustration to Protestants, because the obvious is ignored. And people just repeat the same of things over and over. They point fingers, but have nothing to back their own arguments.

If SS among the ECFs is so obvious show us. It’s not that hard. This thread is onto page 20 something and yet you, as John or Tim, have not offered where your definition of SS is presented by the ECFs.

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

No I was saying that you spent 17 minutes on it. 17 minutes, you say was enough, to read all of his works.

Because you are demanding the context. It is referenced, it’s part of his homilies. There are hundreds. I am trying to find the context, but the quote is found within his homilies. Like I said before, reject the quote, I don’t care it’s off topic. to conclude that the quote is a hoax because you can’t find it in 8 works that you spent 17 minutes reading is mroe faulty logic on your part but we are use to this from you John.

I thought he wrote just the 8 works you thought?..

Get back to the topic John; SS among the ECFs

God bless

I never said I read all the books. I said I searched for that quote. With a computer you can search volumes in minutes. Do you know how to use a computer? All you have to do is find the writings of Origen, and use the Edit tab. Then scroll down to find. Type in a word from the quote and start looking. I looked twice using the word Mary. I found a lot of references to Mary, but none of them were this quote. Then I tried again with the word immaculate, which also appears in the quote, and again I had no luck. That’s the same way I was able to find the other quote. Like I said, it’s not brain surgery.

Again, you are dodging the question. You have no idea where this quote exists. How many of Origen’s works are still in existence? How many are translated into English? It has to be a quote that is translated, because you presented a English version. I also checked other websites on google by putting the entire quote into the search engine. And it appears that this quote only exists in the works of someone who is a Catholic apologist. No scholarly work has this quote. No books attributed to Origen.

If you find it I’ll admit that my research was incomplete, but I still want to know where this quote is from.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I never said I read all the books. I said I searched for that quote.

You said you, “looked through all of his works”

With a computer you can search volumes in minutes.

Not with newadvent, besides you only quoted 8 works… you’re being dishonest.

Back to the topic John, where is your modern belief of SS among the ECFs?

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

Y
Back to the topic John, where is your modern belief of SS among the ECFs?

God bless

By dodging my question over and over you’re basically admitting that you don’t have a clue where this is from. For all you know it is a hoax. You simply copied if from someone else’s website. I’m sure that took less than 17 minutes. And I"m sure you didn’t even read all the quotes you copied. You knock my research, but your research is really non-existent.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I’m not dishonest at all**. I did look through all his works**. I went to the Catholic Encyclopedia and looked through every single book they have on there by Origen.

As explained, that list wasn’t exhaustive. If you would have done more research instead of your knee jerk reaction of attacking us you would have seen that he wrote thousands of works and hundreds of homilies.

Topic = ECFs and SS. Do you have any comments on this or are you only concerned with using this thread to promote your agenda John?

God bless

 

[Timothy_James]

You said you, “looked through all of his works”

Not with newadvent, besides you only quoted 8 works… you’re being dishonest.

Back to the topic John, where is your modern belief of SS among the ECFs?

God bless

**I looked through every book the CE (Catholic Encyclopedia) has by Origen. Please tell me, since you are such a well read Church history scholar, what other books does Origen have which are still in existence today, and which have been translated into English? **

I told the truth, do not accuse me of something I didn’t do. It probably makes you feel good to accuse me of lying, because you can’t back up your quote. So you need to dodge the bullet, so to speak. As far as I know all of Origen’s works which are still in existence and which have been translated into English are on the EC website. If was I said was false, it was by no fault of my own. But you accuse me of lying. I was nice enough not to accuse you of lying by posting that quote. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you just found this quote somewhere else. Why are you being unkind. I was told that Catholics are so kind.

When I said that this quote is make to deceive, I wasn’t talking about you, but about whoever doctored it.

Someone on here said that my father gave the RCC a bad rap, but that Protestants who convert to the RC don’t do the same when it comes to their former denominations. Yet you are Catholic and you’re accusing me of something I didn’t do.Yet as a Protestant I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[mark_a]

As of tomorrow I think I’m going off this site. None of you prove anything to me and I’m just wasting my time.

Sorry to see you go.

I’m wondering about your religion: Baptist General Conference. Do you have a link?

Thanks.

 

[Timothy_James]

Topic = ECFs and SS. Do you have any comments on this or are you only concerned with using this thread to promote your agenda John?

God bless

You will never tell me where that quote was from, because you don’t know. And so your trying to dodge the question and change the subject.

If quotes in tradition can be so easily doctored, what reason does anyone have to trust tradition. That’s why SS make so much sense.

 

[Timothy_James]

Sorry to see you go.

I’m wondering about your religion: Baptist General Conference. Do you have a link?

Thanks.

They’re on the internet. Just go to google and type in Baptist General Conference

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**I quoted every book the EC has. Please tell me, since you are such a well read Church history scholar, what other books does Origen have which are still in existence today, and which have been translated into English? **

It’s off topic but it’s noted that John made the same sarcastic comments about people being “history scholars”. Origen wrote hundreds of homilies. I referenced over a hundered a few pages back. Do your own research and stop derailing this thread.

I told the truth

No, here is your quote:

If you don’t believe me you can do the research yourself. Here is a Catholic website containing the writings of the ECF. Scroll down to Origen and look** through every one of his books**. Not one has this quote.

newadvent.org/fathers/

The list ins’t exhaustive, but you hoped we would take your word for it.

It probably makes you feel good to accuse me of lying, because you can’t back up your quote

Negative. I would rather see you stay on topic. The ECFs and you definition of SS, any thoughts John?

If was I said was false, it was by no fault of my own. But you accuse me of lying.

Yes I said you were being dishonest because after being told that newadvent did not present an exhaustive list of his works you continued to say that it was.

To the topic John, do you have any thoughts?

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If quotes in tradition can be so easily doctored, what reason does anyone have to trust tradition. That’s why SS make so much sense.

Fianlly back to the topic. This is faulty logic. Because you think ‘A’ is false does not make “B” correct. Prove your assertion. We are tired of opinions from you John. Proof. Where is the proof that the ECFs believed in SS as you define it?

God bless

 

[cfrancis]

The only reason I can see for Tim to not want to address the topic of his thread is that we’ve already dismantled his attempt to prove sola Scriptura with the ECFs. Hence his unwilIingness to readdress.

 

[Timothy_James]

I

Yes I said you were being dishonest because after being told that newadvent did not present an exhaustive list of his works you continued to say that it was.

To the topic John, do you have any thoughts?

God bless

So you are calling me a liar? I thought all of Origen’s books which are currently in existence and in English are in the CE listing. If I did say something false, it was not knowingly. But of course you’ll never give me the benefit of the doubt. That would be too Christ-like.

But please prove to me that there are more books by Origen that are still in existence and in English, because until you do you have no right to accuse me of something I didn’t do.

But you don’t even know what other books there are out there. You don’t know where this quote is from. So you now you have to throw the blame at me, so that you look good, even though you don’t know where this is from, and even though you cannot tell me what other books of Origen are still in existence and in English.

You are blowing hot air. You don’t even know if your statements about Origen are truth, yet you have the gall to accuse me of something I didn’t do. Is that the Catholic way. If it is it is more evidence for what Jesus said: Know them by their fruits. And what John said, If a man says he loves God, but hates his brother, he is a liar.

 

[Timothy_James]

I am going to quit this website. You have shown me what good Catholics are really like. My father was right. Also, you post a fake quote from Origen, but refuse to admit it. I give you the benefit of the doubt, but you exchange evil for good and falsely accuse me of wrongdoing. You don’t have a clue how many books of Origen are still in existence, and how many are in English, yet even though you don’t know, you still have the gall to accuse me of knowingly lying. For all you know I did tell the truth. And you know for a fact that even if I did make a false statement, it was unintentional. But this is the nature of the beast, so to speak. You don’t have a clue, but that doesn’t stop you from accusing me falsely.

For all you know the CE has all of Origen’s books which are still in existence and in English. If there are more, please tell me what they are. But you don’t know. And you also don’t know where this quote is from. So you dodge the question by accusing me falsely and changing the subject. It was okay for you to post this when you thought it was real, but now that I’m asking you to prove it you want to change the subject and falsely accuse me.

My father was right. He usually is. Like Jesus said:
**
You shall know them by their fruits**

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I am going to quit this website.

Well I for one expected this. You used this thread not to discuss the topic but to further your agenda. When you can’t defend your opinions the logical thing is to quite I guess. Sorry to see you go but I agree with your reasoning; you weren’t furthering the discussion of this topic.

God bless you John, may the Holy Spirit soften your heart.