THE ELEPHANT IN THE CHURCH a Catholic priest speaks out against homosexual priests

[Exporter]

GloiraPatri4,

I thank you for starting this thread. Not only is it well written, it hammers home the facts.

It is said that one bad apple will cause the entire barrel to rot, and I say that a few bad priests cause other good priest to sin by covering up for the bad priests. I recognise the idea that " good churchmen" may think that if they do not rock the boat, then overall the Church will be OK. Thats not true.

The news reciently said that approximately 700 Catholic Priests have been identified as have some kind of homosexual activity. I think we have 6,500 Priest in the U.S. These 700 can and are placing a great burden on the good priests!

It is a well known fact that if some group wants to cause the failure of a Corparation they start be infiltrating into that Corporation a fith collumn. Put people inside and let there infiltrators do some dirty work. Last year a great Energy Corp. crumbled because some inside the Corp were crooks. The entire Corp. fell.

It is the same way in the Church. If 10% of the priests are homosexual and acting on it, these 10% can have the effect of causing the Church to be diluted, to crumble and to loose the respect of the ordinary Catholic.

I cannot have respect for Bishops or Priests who turn their head to wrong doing. I have been wondering why the Vatican allows homosexuality to run through the Church unimpeded. :yup:

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Fergal:

Why do people, time and time again, fail to recognise the difference between sin and sinner?

Can one be homosexual and celibate? You are all assuming that a homosexual priest is an active homosexual priest, failing to see any seperation between sin and sinner. God hates the sin and loves the sinner.

A man who suffers from same sex attraction and remains celibate for the sake of the kingdom is worthy of priesthood.

The Church looks with compassion on those suffering from same sex attraction. They are to be treated with the dignity due to any human person.

You mean to tell me that one man, suffering from this, who restrains himself before and after ordination for the sake of the kingdom, a pure soul and clean heart before God is not fit to serve God for life?

There are many ordained out there who cannot restrain themselves from opposite sex attraction and go for it time and time again.

Now I ask you, please, why are you so quick to judge?

Thank you, Fergal, for expressing so well my thoughts exactly!

Gee… priests are human like everyone else…

I find it very disheartening to see or hear that people cannot distinguish the difference between “chastity” and “celibacy.”

CHASTITY:
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=CHASTITY

1 : the quality or state of being chaste : as a : abstention from unlawful sexual intercourse b : abstention from all sexual intercourse c : purity in conduct and intention d : restraint and simplicity in design or expression
2 : personal integrity

CELIBACY:
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=celibacy

1 : the state of not being married
2 a : abstention from sexual intercourse b : abstention by vow from marriage

As a healthy heterosexual woman, myself, as a single person I was called to both. As a married woman, I am called like every other human being to chastity but not to celibacy.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Again, I remind you that the material you provided refers to the act and not the inclination. How is it that if heterosexuals resist the temptation to sin, they are applauded but if it’s a homosexual that’s resisting the temptation, it counts for nothing…you’re an abomination…you’re going to hell…stay out of my Church. Hope you enjoy your glass house…watch for stones.

You seem to be in denial to the fact that homosexuality is a mental health disorder so that even a chaste homosexual Priest will be mentally deranged and incapable of emotional stability and clarity of thought.

 

[gilliam]

Kevin Walker:

Thank you. And as homosexuals are approaching Christian perfection, please keep them far, far, far away from the Priesthood until they do attain that Christian perfection.

If we kept everyone away from the priesthood until they attained Christian perfection, we would have extremely few priests.

 

[Lisa_N]

Kevin Walker:

Lisa N, I really must disagree with you on your minimilizing the homosexual mental health problem to resolve by simply chastity - it is important to firmly grasp the reality that even if a homosexual is chaste, they are still de facto psychologically impaired. No homosexual should be allowed a position of authority requiring emotional stability and clarity of thought, which is why the Federal Government sagaciously denies them top secret security clearances or access to the military, CIA, FBI, or any strategic government agency or department. The Catholic Church should take heed of this and follow suit for the benefit of future generations of Catholics.

Kevin I wasn’t making any statement about homosexuality but just pointing out that if someone felt a SSA but never acted upon it then he could give communion with a clear conscious. That would be my understanding of the theory in the CCC.

I think the rationale was that priests with SSA could live chastely as those who are heterosexual are expected to do. However it is apparent that SSA when acted upon seems to be associated with other mental health issues. So in looking at a candidate with a possible SSA disorder understand it probably comes with some baggage that might render the candidate unsuitable.

Lisa N

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Fergal:

Why do people, time and time again, fail to recognise the difference between sin and sinner?

Can one be homosexual and celibate? You are all assuming that a homosexual priest is an active homosexual priest, failing to see any seperation between sin and sinner. God hates the sin and loves the sinner.

A man who suffers from same sex attraction and remains celibate for the sake of the kingdom is worthy of priesthood.

The Church looks with compassion on those suffering from same sex attraction. They are to be treated with the dignity due to any human person.

You mean to tell me that one man, suffering from this, who restrains himself before and after ordination for the sake of the kingdom, a pure soul and clean heart before God is not fit to serve God for life?

There are many ordained out there who cannot restrain themselves from opposite sex attraction and go for it time and time again.

Now I ask you, please, why are you so quick to judge?

Thank you, Fergal, for expressing so well my thoughts exactly!

Gee… priests are human like everyone else…

I find it very disheartening to see or hear that people cannot distinguish the difference between “chastity” and “celibacy.”

CHASTITY:
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=CHASTITY

1 : the quality or state of being chaste : as a : abstention from unlawful sexual intercourse b : abstention from all sexual intercourse c : purity in conduct and intention d : restraint and simplicity in design or expression
2 : personal integrity

CELIBACY:
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=celibacy

1 : the state of not being married
2 a : abstention from sexual intercourse b : abstention by vow from marriage

As a healthy heterosexual woman, myself, I am called like every other human being to chastity. As a single person I was called to both chastity and celibacy. As a married woman, I am still called to chastity yet now I am not called to celibacy.

Priests are called to celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom. They are called to the priesthood – and God gives to them the graces to live the celibate lifestyle for Him.

Seminaries in America were not totally immune to a rise in liberalism in America at the end of the Vatican II Council which coincided with the beginning of the “Free Love” age in American culture. We’re seeing the result of that today.

Let us pray for our priests!!

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church,
by Michael S. Rose

amazon.com/gp/reader/0895261448/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-9492622-5978503#reader-page

Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations From the Priesthood
by Michael S. Rose

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967637112/qid=1108836998/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-9492622-5978503

 

[sbcoral]

Kevin Walker:

You seem to be in denial to the fact that homosexuality is a mental health disorder so that even a chaste homosexual Priest will be mentally deranged and incapable of emotional stability and clarity of thought.

But sir:
I’ve known several priests who are obviously gay but who are not mentally deranged or emotionally unstable or incapable of clear thinking. I am pretty sure that both of the priests at my parish now are homosexual. I don’t know if they are active. I do know that they are very good priests who care about the people of the parish, who clearly care about me and my own family, who provide thoughtful homilies at Sunday Mass, and who do good work in the community. I don’t care if they talk with a lisp or if they have a physical attraction to men. They are both very good priests and good human beings, and it would be a really bad thing if they were kicked out of the priesthood because someone like you decided they were too deranged to serve the Church.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

gilliam:

If we kept everyone away from the priesthood until they attained Christian perfection, we would have extremely few priests.

But homosexuals are further away from Christian perfection than heterosexuals. It is a good bet that if there were no homosexual Priests (or Nuns) in the first place, there would have been NO sex abuse scandal rampaging the Church. It is sheer irresponsiblity to knowingly allow or tolerate homosexuals in the Priesthood.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

sbcoral:

But sir:
I’ve known several priests who are obviously gay but who are not mentally deranged or emotionally unstable or incapable of clear thinking. I am pretty sure that both of the priests at my parish now are homosexual. I don’t know if they are active. I do know that they are very good priests who care about the people of the parish, who clearly care about me and my own family, who provide thoughtful homilies at Sunday Mass, and who do good work in the community. I don’t care if they talk with a lisp or if they have a physical attraction to men. They are both very good priests and good human beings, and it would be a really bad thing if they were kicked out of the priesthood because someone like you decided they were too deranged to serve the Church.

And if you are so tolerant of homosexual Priests, then you should be listed as being a co-conspirator if anything amiss should occur from those homosexual Priests as a result of impaired decision making. How do you think the Cathoic Church came to be in it current crisis anyways? Homosexuals Priests tolerating the misbahaviour of homosexual priests!

 

[rwoehmke]

Being heterosexual is no warranty for good behavior and Faithfulness. I personally have been aquainted with four priests who married a nun or a woman they were counseling. A fifth case did not involve a priest who obtained laitization. He just up and walked away from the church with his mistress who was still married to her first husband. There would appear to be two kinds of elephants or maybe one is a hippo. I also knew at least one homosexual priest who strove mightily with his sin(not pediophilia) and eventually died of aids and alcoholism. Dispite his problems he was a loving, concerned priest who worked hard at his vocation.

 

[jdnation]

Hello, people, please… for those of you thinking it’s okay to allow homosexuals who are chaste to become priests, please think about the following…

A convicted pedophile is finally out of prison. He’s been good, hasn’t done anything else that’s wrong, and so far lives a good Christian life. Would you still be comfortable giving him a job to babysit your children?

It’s a matter of safety and prudence, you wouldn’t want to place a man that is struggling with a problem, however good he is, in a situation that presents itself as tempting. I believe Karl Keating addressed the homosexual priest issue in one of his e-mails comparing giving homosexual priests Holy Orders, like giving a recovering alcoholic a job in a winery.

Does the military draft people who are not physically fit? Does the Air Force take people who do not have good eyesight to be fighter pilots? No, there is a risk, and it is prudent to refuse these people for the greater good. It is a prudent thing to do so you can avoid trouble. It’s sad for those homosexuals who are chaste and Christian, but this is still a matter of safety lest we find ourselves in another scandal, that is why there are checks in place.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

rwoehmke:

Being heterosexual is no warranty for good behavior and Faithfulness.

Yes, that is true. But hererosexuals have not been designated as “objectively disordered”. Homosexuals have been singled out for very good reasons; it isn’t just a sexual preference - Homosexuality is also a mental health problem. A heterosexual might have a mental health problem, but homosexuality is a mental health problem independent of chastity or celibancy.

 

[Church_Militant]

Fergal:

Why do people, time and time again, fail to recognise the difference between sin and sinner?

Can one be homosexual and celibate? You are all assuming that a homosexual priest is an active homosexual priest, failing to see any seperation between sin and sinner. God hates the sin and loves the sinner.

A man who suffers from same sex attraction and remains celibate for the sake of the kingdom is worthy of priesthood.

The Church looks with compassion on those suffering from same sex attraction. They are to be treated with the dignity due to any human person.

You mean to tell me that one man, suffering from this, who restrains himself before and after ordination for the sake of the kingdom, a pure soul and clean heart before God is not fit to serve God for life?

There are many ordained out there who cannot restrain themselves from opposite sex attraction and go for it time and time again.

Now I ask you, please, why are you so quick to judge?

I have to agree with Fergal on this.
There is a HUGE difference between actively sinning and the temptation…ALL of us are tempted to something are we not? Active unrepentant sinners have no place in the priesthood, period, Repentant sinners of any kind do indeed if they have a calling.
Ecclesiasticus Chapter 8:6 “Despise not a man that turneth away from sin, nor reproach him therewith: remember that we are all worthy of reproof.”

This issue is inflamed (no pun intended) by the sex scandals…BUT…ALL of us are called to chastity and although this sin is abhorrent (AS IS ALL SIN) active homosexual sin is no worse than active heterosexual sin or any other. Our goal is to avoid ALL sin by the grace of God, right? I suspect that we might all find ourselves in that crowd around the woman taken in adultery and hear these words from Our Lord,
(John 8:7-11) "7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee?

11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more."

The rock falling from my hand and I turn and walk away toward the confessional and then the Eucharist

 

[AsStAnselmPrays]

Lisa N:

But isn’t the THEORY that priests who have SSA are supposed to be living chastely? I realize this may not be the reality but wasn’t that the rationale behind allowing homosexuals to be ordained? It’s not the disorder or the attraction that is the sin but acting upon it…and as we’ve seen many did.

I think the article is well written and certainly is demonstrated to be absolutely true. Allowing homosexuals into a place where they would have power, influence, and protection was the kiss of death so to speak.

Unfortunately while I am quite sure there have been wonderful, chaste and holy homosexual oriented priests, I suspect that the bad apples have spoiled the entire barrel.

Lisa N

I see where you’re coming from, Lisa.

 

[Lisa_N]

I am curious in all sincerity how a homosexual sin could be considered equivalent to a heterosexual sin. Homosexuality carries with it not only since of fornication or in the case of a married person, adultery, but also a basic disrespect for the incredible body that God has given us. Homosexual sex is abnormal, non life giving, never procreative, and can be dangerous as well.

Anyone care to elaborate? I really do not understand how the two could be equivalent. And no that does not mean I am blowing off heterosexual sin but I cannot see how homosexual sin could be equivalent or any less. I think it is a more sinful action by definition.

Lisa N

 

[swampfox]

“Professed” implies a self-identity that transcends their priestly identity. Frankly, I’m tired of watching the Church go down the road to bankruptcy and the hard work of countless faithful immigrants go down the drain, and having my donations go not for good works but to compensate victims of what largely has been the predatory practices of homosexual priests. Continuing to keep the priesthood open to professed homosexuals is pure suicide for the Catholic Church.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Kevin Walker:

You seem to be in denial to the fact that homosexuality is a mental health disorder so that even a chaste homosexual Priest will be mentally deranged and incapable of emotional stability and clarity of thought.

Sigh
At the risk of repeating myself
Homosexuality was removed from the standard manuals of mental health disorders decades ago.

Remember there are those who argue that celibacy is an abnormal behavior in healthy adults

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Steve Andersen:

Sigh
At the risk of repeating myself
Homosexuality was removed from the standard manuals of mental health disorders decades ago.

Remember there are those who argue that celibacy is an abnormal behavior in healthy adults

double sigh

Too bad the removal of homosexuality from the DSM did not cure it. That removal caused a lot of dissent within both the American Psychiatric Association and the Psychiatric Nurses Association as to the damage that the politically correct removal of homosexuality from the DSM would do to society. Homosexuality remains, de facto, a mental health disorder. Now we have the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church to thanks for all the homosexual toleration encouraged by half the members of the APA.

Also, there is nothing unhealthy about a celibant lifestyle, in fact, in today’s AIDS ridden social life, abstinence is very healthy.

 

[sbcoral]

Kevin Walker:

And if you are so tolerant of homosexual Priests, then you should be listed as being a co-conspirator if anything amiss should occur from those homosexual Priests as a result of impaired decision making. How do you think the Cathoic Church came to be in it current crisis anyways? Homosexuals Priests tolerating the misbahaviour of homosexual priests!

So, what should I do? Spit in the face of the priests who have served me and my family and my parish well for several years? That would show them. That would make up for someone else’s sins. That would be something Jesus would do.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

sbcoral:

So, what should I do? Spit in the face of the priests who have served me and my family and my parish well for several years? That would show them. That would make up for someone else’s sins. That would be something Jesus would do.

Rather than anything so crude as that, just be equally aware of taking the advice of a homosexual as you would from a Downe syndrome or schizophrenic or a severely neurotic individual.

Since the Catholic Church discourages the ordination of homosexuals, what would a “objectively disordered” Priest be doing in a diocese anyways?