The End of False Religion is Near!

[gspollet]

Hi everyone,

I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I have been carefully reading the comments of many on this board. I would simply like to take a few moments to address some of the many questions or issues raised.

Number 1: The latest campaign by Jehovah’s Witnesses does NOT target any particular religion. Now, if you want to believe that, I suppose that is your right. It simply states that we believe that Revelation uses a harlot called Babylon the Great to describe false religion. False religion is going to be destroyed. That’s really the message. Period. Now, there are almost 7 million Jehovah’s Witnesses doing this campaign right now. So, it is possible for a person to give personal opinions. But our instructions are to be very brief. It isn’t b/c we are scared, but it’s because we have thousands upon thousands to hand out. Jehovah’s Witnesses are VERY organized, and we are trying to complete the assignment in the allocated time frame. Now, if you think that you are scaring away the Witnesses and that is why they are leaving, then you can feel free to believe that.

Number2: We believe the same-sex marriages being done in the churches are disgusting, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are going public with this. If you are against it too, then great. The world is very sick and many of these people need help; love and sympathy should be extended toward helping these people as Christ would. If you are against same-sex marriages and believe your religion follows the Bible, then great! This is an informational campaign. You know, if I had Baptists come to my door condemning something unscriptural, I would commend them. Give credit where credit is due.

Number3: We are not on a “bashing campaign”. This isn’t to try to swell the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If people want a Bible Study, then great. If not, that’s fine too. We sincerely feel that people must be warned that false religion is ending. Everyone will be accountable.

Number4: This is a worldwide campaign, and so the material is formatted in such a way. Jesus is described as a “highly respectable religious authority” instead of “God’s Son” because the purpose of the tract is to draw attention to false religion’s end. It is NOT to start a doctrinal debate about the identity of Jesus. This is being distributed to professed Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, and everyone else.

Finally, I’ve noticed that some people have dissected the tract to prove it wrong. What is there to prove wrong? The tract outlines 3 main things: 1) politics and religion don’t mix 2)false doctrine and 3)same sex marriage. I can see someone having a different opinion about doctrine. But the points about politics and religion shouldn’t even be debatable. And the issue of same sex marriages shouldn’t even be debatable. As for the false doctrine, the article brings out that the soul is NOT IMMORTAL. If you pull out a Bible (any Bible), you will find that the Jews always had the resurrection hope–the idea that one who died could be brought back to life. The teaching of an immortal soul is OPPOSITE of the resurrection teaching. The soul’s immortality was a Greek teaching from non-worshippers of God that a person didn’t really die and lived on. The resurrection is the teaching that a person DOES die but will be brought back to life. Why the confusion? Many Bibles don’t consistently translate the word “soul”. How can you debate about whether something is mortal or immortal when you can’t agree on what you are talking about(!) It’s like debating about whether a cow can speak German or English. It would be nonsense. Do you want to know what the Bible teaches to be the soul? Well, you will probably disagree, but I’ll tell you. It teaches that the person as a WHOLE is a soul. Soul is also used to describe “the life a person enjoys.” So people can kill us but not destroy our soul or our “life” because Jesus promises a resurrection. But it doesn’t mean that humans can’t destroy our soul because it is immortal!

Anyway, if you don’t agree, that’s fine. People disagree all of the time. I wish all of you the best. Smile and go to starbucks sometimes. Also, this isn’t to anger people. If you needed help with something and I knew you wouldn’t convert or study the Bible, I would still help you.

Thank you for giving me time to express these thoughts. Ok, let the shark frenzy begin!

Grant

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hi everyone, I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Hi Gspollet, I’m a Catholic and Welcome to CAF.

Number 1: The latest campaign by Jehovah’s Witnesses does NOT target any particular religion. Now, if you want to believe that, I suppose that is your right. It simply states that we believe that Revelation uses a harlot called Babylon the Great to describe false religion.

Thanks for sharing. If you don’t mind you can read a Catholics take on the “harlot of Babylon” Read this. (click here)

Number2: We believe the same-sex marriages being done in the churches are disgusting, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are going public with this.

you are in agreement with the Catholic Church on this one!!! Amen, Amen, Amen.
The section of Matrimony in the Catechism of the Catholic Church starts out like this:
CCC paragraph 1601:

The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.

also
CCC paragraph 1625:

The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent;

To read the whole section of Marriage from the CCC click here

Number3: We are not on a “bashing campaign”. This isn’t to try to swell the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If people want a Bible Study, then great. If not, that’s fine too.

I don’t agree with that because to be ignorant of Scripture means that you are ignorant of Christ. (CCC paragraph 133)

We sincerely feel that people must be warned that false religion is ending. Everyone will be accountable.

Yes people are accountable for their actions.

Edit: CCC is short hand for Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[gspollet]

I reviewed the information on the “Harlot of Babylon” to be fair. It appears that the article is a rebuttal against the premise that this prostitute depicts the Catholic Church. In fact, as far as I’m concerned, it successfully proves that the prostitute is NOT the Catholic Church. For example, it makes the point that this harlot has “dominion over the kings of the earth.” I think the article misses the point that this harlot is the “world empire of false religion.” I respectfully do not agree that it merely represents ancient Jerusalem.

Evidence:
1)NOT POLITICAL: It is not the political elements because this harlot commits fornication with the KINGS OF THE EARTH. It also rides the back of this political beast. The Bible is very clear that these beasts represent nations. This is abundantly clear in the book of Daniel.

2)NOT COMMERCIAL: It is not the commercial elements because the merchants weep over her. (Rev 18:11)

3)THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD: It means that it is bloodguilty of all those who have been slaughtered. Rev 18:24 “yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” Whatever Babylon the Great is, it must have begun with the first slaughter of Abel. It then proceeded with Nimrod, a mighter hunter in opposition to Jehovah.

4)ASSOCIATE WITH WEDDINGS/MARRIAGES: Rev 18:23 makes references to brides and bride grooms. Where do weddings take place?

5)SPIRITISM: Rev 18:23 “for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled.” Dabbles in demon practices such as inquiring of the death, magic, fortune-telling–all things having to do with spiritism.

6)CALLED Babylon the Great. Ancient Babylon was the notorious center of disgusting false worship and Babylon the Great implies that it would have an influence extending beyond the borders of ancient Babylon.

7)Unfaithfulness-In the Bible, groups of people or an organization is described as a wife. (Jer 31:32) Revelation speaks of the “bride of Christ”. Rev 12:1 speaks of a pregnant woman. So this harlot is described as being unfaithful and disloyal. James 4:4 calls those friends of the world as “adulteresses.”

8)POLITICAL INFLUENCE: While it is NOT the political elements, it speaks of having a kingdom or an empire over the kings of the earth. (Rev 17:18)

9)Many of God’s people are in this harlot–Rev 18:4. It cannot refer to ancient Jerusalem because Jerusalem had already been destroyed in 70CE by Roman armies. Jesus years before had already warned Christians about fleeing when seeing the encamped armies. Also the city of Jerusalem was NOT responsible for “all those slaughtered on the earth.” In fact, it did not have a “kingdom over the kings of the earth.” When Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, the legal right for rulership over God’s kingdom would not be until he (Jesus Christ) comes who has the legal right (Ezekiel 21:27) Paul confirmed this in Romans 15:12. So first century Jerusalem was NOT the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth.

10)She will NEVER be found again. (Rev 18:21) The modern city of Jerusalem has been rebuilt. Jerusalem does NOT fit the description of this Babylon the Great.

11)The judgment of this harlot is described after the 7th bowl of God’s anger is poured out. Rev chapter 16 describes the very end of this system and Armaggedon

12)Rev 16:12 says that the waters of the Euphrates (a river surrounding ancient Babylon) would dry up. The kings from the rising of the sun would march then on Babylon. If you recall, the waters of ancient Babylon were dried up to allow the Medes and Persians to conquer Babylon. Therefore, modern false religion will lose its waters (the peoples Rev 17:15) and support which will then allow its easy and swift destruction.

Now, to address whether Revelation is literal or not. To describe Revelation as literal or not is to misunderstand the book entirely. John does literally see each of the signs. He actually sees a beast, a harlot, angels, etc. However, they are also visual signs expressing a spiritual truth. So, the fact that Babylon the Great is a city in the vision does not mean it must describe some ancient or modern city in reality. Just as the beasts of Daniel clearly describe empires, the beasts of Revelation clearly describe the march of world powers. It doesn’t mean we should fear living by an ocean because of this literal beast! Even in the vision itself, some signs are explained. Revelation 17:1 shows this whore sits on waters. Then Rev 17:15 shows that the waters mean peoples.

Therefore, all of this evidence makes it abundantly clear that Babylon the Great is none other than the world empire of false religion. It can simply be described as “false religion” but Revelation shows that it truly is an empire that has 1)exerted political influence over the kings of the world 2)been blood guilty, and 3) is condemned by God.

Thanks
Grant

 

[Mommyof02green]

I reviewed the information on the “Harlot of Babylon” to be fair. It appears that the article is a rebuttal against the premise that this prostitute depicts the Catholic Church. In fact, as far as I’m concerned, it successfully proves that the prostitute is NOT the Catholic Church. For example, it makes the point that this harlot has “dominion over the kings of the earth.” I think the article misses the point that this harlot is the “world empire of false religion.” I respectfully do not agree that it merely represents ancient Jerusalem.

Thank-you for being fair.

I’m glad to hear that agree that IS NOT the Catholic Church." I’m also glad that to hear that you agree that it CAN be Jerusalem.

As far is the Harlot being 'world empire of false religion". Well I’m not so sure I agree with THAT interpretation.

Yes it is a possible that things have double means. I interpret the woman in Rev 12 to be Mary. However, I also see the woman as the Church, and I see how the woman can be “the daughter Zion” (i.e. the old people of God). I also see the Woman as “Good” and the dragon as “evil”. So I see it as the battle between good and evil.

Here is another Catholic’s take on the Images Revelation: click here Unfortunately not all of the imagery is talked about… But it does give some insight on the image from a Catholic point of view. Program 9 and 10 would be in my opinion will be the best ones for you to listen too. I feel that way because it deals with Chapter 16-20.

Here is another look at Revelation. This one shows how Catholics see Revelation in relation to The Mass. (The Mass is what we call our Church Services): The Mass and the Apocalypse

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Not to be intentionally nasty,
but if the leaders of the JWs are correct in their interpretation of who and what “Babylon the Great” really is,
it would be a miracle. Because when it comes to the Book of Revelation, the Watchtower Society has made some real WHOPPERS of errors. Their 1917 Book THE FINISHED MYSTERY (available online tho out-of-print) said that the star called Wormwood which fell from heaven was none other than John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church. This is sheer idiocy.

And based on their (JW leaders/governing body) interpretations of Daniel and Revelation, the WTSociety has announced that the Battle of Armageddon would occur in 1874, then 1878, then 1914, then 1915, then 1925, then during World War Two, then in
1975 (though they lyingly denying predicting 1975), etc. etc.

As for the Catholic Church even being a PART of Babylon the Great, you should read Ralph W. Woodrow (a non-Catholic) book
called THE BABYLON CONNECTION ? (the question mark is part of the title) available from amazon.com
In that book, Woodrow DEMOLISHES the claims that Catholic teachings and practices are simply pagan things with Christian names. He also flushes down the toilet, and rightly so, the awful book called THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop, which is sold in the bookstore of many Kingdom Halls. The book is pure trash, and Woodrow (who used to parrot it’s contents until he learned better) demolishes the books claims.

Anyone who reads the earliest Church writers of the first, second, third centuries A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer) will see that the Church that Constantine merely LEGALIZED in 312 A.D. was simply the Apostolic church that had always existed, the Catholic Church.
Constantine, contrary to what the Witnesses taught me, did not create the Catholic church or Catholicism. He merely stopped persecuting the Church that had always existed, and his mom, Helen, was a Christian.

As for the soul, which our JW guest asserts is not immortal, that would take an entire thread. St. Paul said he was torn between TWO desires, the desire to depart this life and be with Christ, and the desire to remain on earth helping to guide the Church.
The JW “translators” of the New World (mis)Translation wickedly alter the wording of this so that it appears that Paul is saying he really desires the “releasing”, meaning the releasing of Christ from heaven at the 2nd coming. Saint Paul wasn’t saying that, and no bible scholar on earth would defend such an idiotic and deliberately misleading rendering of scripture. We aren’t just flesh and blood. We have a spirit or soul which lives on after the body. The ENTIRE early Christian Church, taught directly by the Apostles, believed this.

Sorry to go on and on. But the members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses are really basically very nice, godfearing people who are being mislead by the Brooklyn, New York leaders of a worldwide cult, and I think that that is TERRIBLE.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[Contarini]

I was given this newletter this morning by JW’s. After I closed the door I quickle glanced at the newsletter. The Church in Politics, Priest sex scandal, False Doctrines, the future end of a false religion.

I got the same thing, and in all fairness they weren’t just talking about Catholics. The tract is called “The End of False Religion,” not “The End of *A *False Religion.” It doesn’t say “the Church in Politics,” and in fact that section seems to have Islam primarily in mind. They don’t have a heading called “Priest sex scandal”–it’s about sexual immorality in general and their first reference is to liberal denominations ordaining gays. Yes, they do refer to the sex scandal as well, and they have a picture of a Catholic priest (he could conceivably be an Episcopal priest, but I suspect they intend him to be Catholic). I’m not saying they like Catholics, only that they are making a much broader sweep. Notice the picture of the cemetery and the claim that all “religions” teaching the immortality of the soul are false religions!

Edwin

 

[DonaNobisPacem]

I also have received a copy of this pamphlet, today.
It is because I have been conversing with a JW for over a year, about 1-2 times per month.
I also have no problem taking their literature as I figure it doesn’t get into others hands and I use it as a tool to rebut and ask questions from. (and I am putting together some of my own info in the hopes it will be taken)
The JW who comes to my home is a very sincere and respectful person. Early on there was a “student” with, but this person comes “solo” now.
This JW is mislead and misguided, yes, but I try anyway. And I will continue to try as long as this person wants to come because they are all God’s children and their souls may be at stake. This JW is strong in the Watchtower teachings, but who knows? Maybe seeds are being planted, that is my job. It is God’s job to water and make them grow!!!
The falsehoods in this pamphlet are easily seen and refuted.

 

[Mr_Jullien]

Yep… That’s what I do. I take their literature, and give them some of my own. Sometimes they take it easily, other times they have a hard time and try to get out of taking it. I had heard that they aren’t "allowed’ to take other peoples literature. However, if they will NOT take my literature I will NOT take theirs.

“Pillar of Fire; Pillar of Truth” in my opinion is good to hand out.
You can get “Pillar of Fire; Pillar of Truth” here

In my opinion “Catholic Update” is also good to hand out.
You can get “Catholic Update” here

Hey M2G,

According to Jason Evert’s book, “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses”, they’re not allowed to read it.

Excerpt:

"…The article then goes on to say, that if Witnesses disregard the advice not to read such literature, they are disobeying Jehovah himself. Reading apostate literature is likened to looking at pornography, and Witnesses are told to avoid even the temptaion to view apostate material: “Therefore, resolve in your heart that you will never even touch the poison that apostates want you to sip”
“Do you refuse to listen to bitter criticism of Jehovah’s organization? You should refuse.”****"

It’s an interesting book.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hey M2G,

According to Jason Evert’s book, “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses”, they’re not allowed to read it.

Excerpt:

It’s an interesting book.

PAX,

Jullien

So I have heard from a lot of people… I myself have not read the book YET… I plan too… It’s on my wish list!

Anyway, I still figure if you are going to leave me your literature then you have to take my literature with you. If they don’t read it that’s fine… after all how many of us ACTUALLY sit down and read the stuff they give us

They may not want my literature, and that’s fine, because the truth is I never asked them to come by my house and give me their literature.

So lets spread the word of God, like the JW. If they come to your door, then welcome them. If they want to give you their literature to keep fine, but will have to take with them your literature. If they DO NOT want to take your literature, then DO NOT let them give you theirs. Of course all of that is just my opinion on the matter.

PS: Recently, back in March, a JW came to my door. She did not want my literature, so I told her that I then did not want her literature. She tried telling me I already gave it to her the last time she was here. (I had a repeat visitor. Normally I don’t get repeat visitors. Normally it’s a different person every time.)

I told her oh, NO this one different. After all you are here again and these are different books, so this is a different book too. She then took mine, but you could see it was a real problem. She had problems the first time, but this time you could see it bugged her more. I don’t know why… However I could tell it did.

Well, I then went 6 months without seeing a JW. So I figured they stopped coming to my door, because I normally saw them every 2-3 months. (Although normally it was a different person each time, expect the one time in March she was repeat visitor.) However, like I said earlier the JW’s came back this month. Maybe they just needed a sabbatical from me.

 

[Mr_Jullien]

So I have heard from a lot of people… I myself have not read the book YET… I plan too… It’s on my wish list!

Anyway, I still figure if you are going to leave me your literature then you have to take my literature with you. If they don’t read it that’s fine… after all how many of us ACTUALLY sit down and read the stuff they give us

They may not want my literature, and that’s fine, because the truth is I never asked them to come by my house and give me their literature.

So lets spread the word of God, like the JW. If they come to your door, then welcome them. If they want to give you their literature to keep fine, but will have to take with them your literature. If they DO NOT want to take your literature, then DO NOT let them give you theirs. Of course all of that is just my opinion on the matter.

PS: Recently, back in March, a JW came to my door. She did not want my literature, so I told her that I then did not want her literature. She tried telling me I already gave it to her the last time she was here. (I had a repeat visitor. Normally I don’t get repeat visitors. Normally it’s a different person every time.)

I told her oh, NO this one different. After all you are here again and these are different books, so this is a different book too. She then took mine, but you could see it was a real problem. She had problems the first time, but this time you could see it bugged her more. I don’t know why… However I could tell it did.

Well, I then went 6 months without seeing a JW. So I figured they stopped coming to my door, because I normally saw them every 2-3 months. (Although normally it was a different person each time, expect the one time in March she was repeat visitor.) However, like I said earlier the JW’s came back this month. Maybe they just needed a sabbatical from me.

Amazing. I’ve been living at the same residence since 1978, there’s a Fellowship Hall about four miles away, and I’ve never had a JW knock on my door.
Come to think of it; never had Mormons come to my door, either.

Does my contentiousness radiate around my whole property?

PAX,

Jullien

 

[Mr_Jullien]

So I have heard from a lot of people… I myself have not read the book YET… I plan too… It’s on my wish list!

Anyway, I still figure if you are going to leave me your literature then you have to take my literature with you. If they don’t read it that’s fine… after all how many of us ACTUALLY sit down and read the stuff they give us

They may not want my literature, and that’s fine, because the truth is I never asked them to come by my house and give me their literature.

So lets spread the word of God, like the JW. If they come to your door, then welcome them. If they want to give you their literature to keep fine, but will have to take with them your literature. If they DO NOT want to take your literature, then DO NOT let them give you theirs. Of course all of that is just my opinion on the matter.

PS: Recently, back in March, a JW came to my door. She did not want my literature, so I told her that I then did not want her literature. She tried telling me I already gave it to her the last time she was here. (I had a repeat visitor. Normally I don’t get repeat visitors. Normally it’s a different person every time.)

I told her oh, NO this one different. After all you are here again and these are different books, so this is a different book too. She then took mine, but you could see it was a real problem. She had problems the first time, but this time you could see it bugged her more. I don’t know why… However I could tell it did.

Well, I then went 6 months without seeing a JW. So I figured they stopped coming to my door, because I normally saw them every 2-3 months. (Although normally it was a different person each time, expect the one time in March she was repeat visitor.) However, like I said earlier the JW’s came back this month. Maybe they just needed a sabbatical from me.

So I have heard from a lot of people… I myself have not read the book YET… I plan too… It’s on my wish list!

I’ve been reading it, off and on. I get side tracked by other things. I promised to give it to D. when I’m finished, and she’s going to give me her copy of “When Mormons Call: Answering Mormon Missionaries at your door” by Isaiah Bennett.
I’m looking forward to reading that one, big time.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Number 1: The latest campaign by Jehovah’s Witnesses does NOT target any particular religion. Now, if you want to believe that, I suppose that is your right. It simply states that we believe that Revelation uses a harlot called Babylon the Great to describe false religion. False religion is going to be destroyed. That’s really the message. Period. Now, there are almost 7 million Jehovah’s Witnesses doing this campaign right now. So, it is possible for a person to give personal opinions. But our instructions are to be very brief. It isn’t b/c we are scared, but it’s because we have thousands upon thousands to hand out. Jehovah’s Witnesses are VERY organized, and we are trying to complete the assignment in the allocated time frame. Now, if you think that you are scaring away the Witnesses and that is why they are leaving, then you can feel free to believe that.

I reread the tract and I guess I agree it wasnt targeting the CC but rather a broad brush of things. The interesting thing is that no dates were given in the tract so I dont understand the urgency. The question is how “near” is near? 6months-1yr?

…
… As for the false doctrine, the article brings out that the soul is NOT IMMORTAL. If you pull out a Bible (any Bible), you will find that the Jews always had the resurrection hope–the idea that one who died could be brought back to life.

The number one problem I see both here and the tract is that it focuses on obscure Old Testament passages and totally ignores New Testament references. It is in the NT where the teaching of the reality of Hell really comes to light.

The teaching of an immortal soul is OPPOSITE of the resurrection teaching. The soul’s immortality was a Greek teaching from non-worshippers of God that a person didn’t really die and lived on.

Death means the soul separates from the flesh. This has nothing to do with greek pagan influences. The resurrection means the soul reunites with the body.

The resurrection is the teaching that a person DOES die but will be brought back to life. Why the confusion? Many Bibles don’t consistently translate the word “soul”. How can you debate about whether something is mortal or immortal when you can’t agree on what you are talking about(!) It’s like debating about whether a cow can speak German or English. It would be nonsense.

I dont think the translation issue is as big as you say because different contexts and words for “soul” mean there is more than one notion of soul where as you believe there is only one notion/usage.

Do you want to know what the Bible teaches to be the soul? Well, you will probably disagree, but I’ll tell you. It teaches that the person as a WHOLE is a soul. Soul is also used to describe “the life a person enjoys.” So people can kill us but not destroy our soul or our “life” because Jesus promises a resurrection. But it doesn’t mean that humans can’t destroy our soul because it is immortal!

I would be very interested in actual passages you can provide to back up your claims. That being said Im having a hard time even understanding your definition of “soul”. If you mean the “person as a whole” as in “that boy is a good soul” I agree that is one usage. As for the “life a person enjoys”, whats that supposed to mean?
In places like 1Pt3:19 it says Jesus preached to the “spirits in prison”, these were the souls of dead people, they werent in a physical prison in their bodies. Other places like Rev 6:9-11 talk about martyrss souls wanting God to avenge their killers on earth.

 

[gspollet]

Catholic Dude (I’m just using your handle you use)

[friend]
The interesting thing is that no dates were given in the tract so I dont understand the urgency. The question is how “near” is near? 6months-1yr?

No dates were given because we do not find any Bible chronology pointing to a particular date. The Watchtower’s purpose is to “keep watch on world events as they fulfill Bible prophecy.”
What do you mean that you don’t understand “The urgency”? Do Catholics believe in Armaggedon?? Do Catholics believe that Armaggedon can be a few hundred years into the future? Are you aware that some of the prophets spoke of Jerusalem’s destruction over 100 years before the event occurred? We believe the harlot’s destruction is firmly rooted in Bible prophecy. Of course, Catholics don’t even believe that it represents a “world empire of false religion.”

[friend]
The number one problem I see both here and the tract is that it focuses on obscure Old Testament passages and totally ignores New Testament references. It is in the NT where the teaching of the reality of Hell really comes to light.

The passages are in no way obscure. The obscurity is in your trying to understand why you find no teaching of an afterlife in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews understood something so basic as the “condition of the dead.” (Eccl 9:5) They never believed in an afterlife. In fact, when Lazarus died, Martha said, “I know he will rise on the last day”. She didn’t express hope that he had an immortal soul in a celestial waiting room awaiting a resurrection. Where do you think all the Jews were before they had the heavenly hope? No one went to heaven before Jesus. Why? Because the new covenant was not in place!

[friend]
Death means the soul separates from the flesh. This has nothing to do with greek pagan influences. The resurrection means the soul reunites with the body.

Dust you are and to dust you will return. (Gen 3:19) Death means the soul dies. Genesis 2:7 speaks of Adam becoming a living soul. When he sinned, he died and became a dead soul. Do you believe Adam is in hell? If so, was hell created AFTER Adam sinned? Or was hell created BEFORE Adam sinned? I’m sorry to tell you, but the teaching of an immortal soul is NOT rooted in the Holy Scriptures. The resurrection is not the reuniting of soul and body. The resurrection literally means “standing up again.” The Bible teaches 2 types of resurrections: heavenly and earthly resurrection. Acts 24:15 teaches an earthly resurrection of the unrighteous even on earth (notice it doesn’t say wicked). Then Jesus of course also taught of the heavenly resurrection. Many believe that those who never learned about Christ go to hell. Jehovah’s Witnesses believes from the Scriptures that they have a resurrection hope to take a stand yet for the truth and learn of Christ.

[friend]
I dont think the translation issue is as big as you say because different contexts and words for “soul” mean there is more than one notion of soul where as you believe there is only one notion/usage.

I don’t recall saying there is only one notion/usage of the word ‘soul’. There are many uses of the word soul but none that I believe demonstrate the usage of an immortal and immaterial part that survives death. As for translation, this is very important. Words should be translated consistently as “soul” to let the reader determine the meaning.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

[MyPhilomena]

Catholic Dude (I’m just using your handle you use)

[friend]
The interesting thing is that no dates were given in the tract so I dont understand the urgency. The question is how “near” is near? 6months-1yr?

No dates were given because we do not find any Bible chronology pointing to a particular date. The Watchtower’s purpose is to “keep watch on world events as they fulfill Bible prophecy.”
What do you mean that you don’t understand “The urgency”? Do Catholics believe in Armaggedon?? Do Catholics believe that Armaggedon can be a few hundred years into the future? Are you aware that some of the prophets spoke of Jerusalem’s destruction over 100 years before the event occurred? We believe the harlot’s destruction is firmly rooted in Bible prophecy. Of course, Catholics don’t even believe that it represents a “world empire of false religion.”

[friend]
The number one problem I see both here and the tract is that it focuses on obscure Old Testament passages and totally ignores New Testament references. It is in the NT where the teaching of the reality of Hell really comes to light.

The passages are in no way obscure. The obscurity is in your trying to understand why you find no teaching of an afterlife in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews understood something so basic as the “condition of the dead.” (Eccl 9:5) They never believed in an afterlife. In fact, when Lazarus died, Martha said, “I know he will rise on the last day”. She didn’t express hope that he had an immortal soul in a celestial waiting room awaiting a resurrection. Where do you think all the Jews were before they had the heavenly hope? No one went to heaven before Jesus. Why? Because the new covenant was not in place!

[friend]
Death means the soul separates from the flesh. This has nothing to do with greek pagan influences. The resurrection means the soul reunites with the body.

Dust you are and to dust you will return. (Gen 3:19) Death means the soul dies. Genesis 2:7 speaks of Adam becoming a living soul. When he sinned, he died and became a dead soul. Do you believe Adam is in hell? If so, was hell created AFTER Adam sinned? Or was hell created BEFORE Adam sinned? I’m sorry to tell you, but the teaching of an immortal soul is NOT rooted in the Holy Scriptures. The resurrection is not the reuniting of soul and body. The resurrection literally means “standing up again.” The Bible teaches 2 types of resurrections: heavenly and earthly resurrection. Acts 24:15 teaches an earthly resurrection of the unrighteous even on earth (notice it doesn’t say wicked). Then Jesus of course also taught of the heavenly resurrection. Many believe that those who never learned about Christ go to hell. Jehovah’s Witnesses believes from the Scriptures that they have a resurrection hope to take a stand yet for the truth and learn of Christ.

[friend]
I dont think the translation issue is as big as you say because different contexts and words for “soul” mean there is more than one notion of soul where as you believe there is only one notion/usage.

I don’t recall saying there is only one notion/usage of the word ‘soul’. There are many uses of the word soul but none that I believe demonstrate the usage of an immortal and immaterial part that survives death. As for translation, this is very important. Words should be translated consistently as “soul” to let the reader determine the meaning.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

friend, may i ask you a question? please, by all means, feel free to not answer if you so wish. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Or a potential Jehovah’s Witness?

 

[Mommyof02green]

friend, may i ask you a question? please, by all means, feel free to not answer if you so wish. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Or a potential Jehovah’s Witness?

IN post 61 he told everyone that he was Jehovah Witness.

 

[MyPhilomena]

IN post 61 he told everyone that he was Jehovah Witness.

thank you, that is appreciated.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Do Catholics believe in Armaggedon?? Do Catholics believe that Armaggedon can be a few hundred years into the future? Are you aware that some of the prophets spoke of Jerusalem’s destruction over 100 years before the event occurred? We believe the harlot’s destruction is firmly rooted in Bible prophecy. Of course, Catholics don’t even believe that it represents a “world empire of false religion.”

What Happened to Armageddon?:

Knorr was succeeded as head of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Frederick Franz. He had been the Witnesses’ leading theologian, and his services were often called upon. For some years the sect’s magazines had been predicting that Armageddon would occur in 1975. When it didn’t, Franz had to find an explanation.

Witnesses believe that Adam was created in 4026 B.C. and that human beings have been allotted 6000 years of existence until Armageddon and the beginning of the millennium. This figure is based on a “creative week” in which each of six days is equal to 1,000 years, with the Sabbath or seventh day being the beginning of the millennium. Simple arithmetic gives 1975 as the year Armageddon would arrive. Franz explained that Armageddon would actually come 6000 years after Eve’s creation. But when 1975 came and went, the Witnesses had to “adjust” their chronology to cover up a failed prediction. They accomplished this by maintaining that no one knew exactly how long after Adam’s creation Eve came on the scene. Franz said that it was months—even years. Hence he was able to “stretch” the 1975 date to some indeterminate time in the future. In any case, Franz said that Witnesses would just have to wait, knowing the end is right around the corner.

When the final battle does occur—remember, it will be during the lifetime of “millions” of people alive in 1914, which means it can’t be too far off—Jehovah will defeat Satan and the elect will go to heaven to rule with Christ. But, following a literal interpretation of the number mentioned in Revelation, chapters 7 and 14, only 144,000 are among the elect. They will go to heaven as spirit persons (without resurrected bodies). The remaining faithful (Jehovah’s Witnesses), who are known as Jonadabs, will live forever on a renewed, paradise Earth in resurrected bodies. The unsaved will cease to exist at all, having been annihilated by Jehovah.

Franz was succeeded as president of the Watchtower in 1993 by Milton Henschel, who has continued the aggressive evangelization tactics of his predecessors. In 1995 the Watchtower quietly changed one of its major prophetic doctrines. Until this point, they had maintained that the generation alive in 1914 would not pass from the scene until Armageddon occurred. Now that this generation has almost entirely died out—and Armageddon has not occurred and does not seem like it will happen immediately—they had to change their doctrine. Now, the Watchtower says that Armageddon will simply occur “soon,” and it is no longer tied to a particular, literal generation of people. Source: click here

Here is a link to the Catholic view of End Times. We call it “Last things” Click here to see what Catholics think re: last things

 

[Mommyof02green]

thank you, that is appreciated.

Welcome

I also want to give this bit of info:

Q: The Jehovah’s Witnesses stress the importance of the “generation of 1914” in their teachings, but I heard that they have made changes regarding their understanding of this “generation.” Is this true?

A: Yes. As with many Watch Tower Society (WTS) doctrines, it is crucial to know the history behind a given teaching, as the WTS is notorious for changing doctrines. Consequently, what was “true” for a Jehovah’s Witness (JW) fifty or even twenty years ago may no longer be true for today’s JW.

The WTS previously taught that the generation of people alive in 1914 would not pass away before Armageddon (i.e., God’s final conquest of evil) occurred. The WTS based this belief on its interpretation of Matthew 24:34, where Jesus, when speaking of his coming and the tribulation, says that “this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” The 1914 date is pivotal for JWs because they believe it to be the time when Jesus returned invisibly to establish his rule from heaven, so the timing of Armageddon is inexorably linked to this year.

As the years passed and Armageddon seemed nowhere in sight, the WTS made a series of changes in its interpretation of this 1914 “generation” to cover up what would prove to be yet another false prophecy. An overview of the WTS teaching shows that the “generation” went from those old enough to understand events in 1914 (The Watchtower, May 1, 1967, 262) to those who merely witnessed events in 1914 (Our Incoming World Government—God’s Kingdom, 1977, 156) to those who were alive in 1914 (The Watchtower, May 1, 1985, 4). Keep in mind that for years the WTS steadfastly maintained that this generation was a literal one with a determinate life span.

As time began to “stretch” that life span beyond a reasonable point, the WTS was faced with a problem which it solved by re-interpreting what was meant by a “generation.” In more recent WTS literature one notices that a generation “is really related to people and events, rather than to a fixed number of years” (The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, 5) or that “Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term ‘generation’ as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics” (The Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1995, 17).

In other words, the “generation of 1914” is yet another glaring example of how the WTS has made a false prediction and consequently had to change its teaching in order to hide the fact. Source: click here

 

[MyPhilomena]

Therefore, all of this evidence makes it abundantly clear that Babylon the Great is none other than the world empire of false religion. It can simply be described as “false religion” but Revelation shows that it truly is an empire that has 1)exerted political influence over the kings of the world 2)been blood guilty, and 3) is condemned by God.

Thanks
Grant

Hello gspollet,

Peace be to you,

When you mention the “world empire of false religion” false religion is religion that is not from God. You would agree correct? let me ask you this, if you knew that a belief or religion made false predictions time and time again, even though some of those errors were admitted publicly, what would you say about that belief? could you say with 100% honesty that that would be a belief that is trust worthy? would you put your trust in a belief that has proven time and again to falsely predict the end of things?

Would you not agree, that anyone who predicts the end and states it as fact has ignored what is wirtten in the NT where it states, No man knows the hour or the day when the end will come. So, when someone tells you that they know the time for the end has come, would you not agree that in fact they do not really know it?

Wouldn’t you trust a belief that has always told the truth? would you continue to support a belief that has predicted things many times and failed? a belief cannot state they speak for God when they make false predictions can they? obviously not. Aslo note, what is written at the end of the book of Revelation? Can you please type it here and show us what it says? Then go to John 1:1 and what did Revelation state there before you read John 1:1?

Iam going to ask Valke2 to come and respond to your post aboutthe Hebrews. I will paste it for him and he can come and answer that part of it. I’d like to see his (name removed by moderator)ut for that part of it.

False religion cannot and does not come from God. Anyone who claims to speak the truth, and speak for God as fact, and does not uphold truth is not from God and does not speak for God. Surely you could agree with that correct?

 

[MyPhilomena]

Also, for your consideration, here is a link for you to look at from CAF library, scroll down to almost the middle of the page see what is there in regards to your belief. Here is
the link: catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp