The End of False Religion is Near!

[John832]

Having asked “do not ALL Catholics accept the 66 books from Genesis to Revelation as canonical two Catholic members respond:

We do so becuase the Church has declared them to be canonical. If the Church did not, I would not believe them to paraphrase St. Augustine. **The Church using the donation of faith has deemed all the 73 books of the Bi9ble to be scripture **becuase she has the ability to discern such things. Turtullian
…

It was the Catholic Church which, out of dozens and dozens
of books & letters all claiming to be “inspired”, declared at the COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON that only the 27 books we use today as the New Testament, are inspired.
Anyone who denies that is either an ignorant fool or a liar. Japeeto3

Is there some confusion here? Who is right? Is your brother Catholic Turtullian “a fool and a liar” Japeeto3?

As to the Church’s track record of persecution and burning so-called ‘heretics’ at the stake, I’ll leave that to any student of history to find out. The facts are not hard to find.

Once again, thank you,

Tony

 

[Turtullian]

Is there some confusion here? Who is right? Is your brother Catholic Turtullian “a fool and a liar” Japeeto3?

Chalcedon only dealt with the NT in reaffirmation of Carthage. No contradiction. If you take this as so, then you are the greater fool, Just as Nicea I dealt with Judith in reaffirmation of Carthage. Nice try.

As to the Church’s track record of persecution and burning so-called ‘heretics’ at the stake, I’ll leave that to any student of history to find out. The facts are not hard to find.

It was the state that executed people not the Church. The Fouth Council of the Latan expressively prohibits the clerics from engaging in torture that breaks causes bleeding, serving in battle, or surgery or execution.

 

[Damascus]

Having asked “do not ALL Catholics accept the 66 books from Genesis to Revelation as canonical two Catholic members respond:

We do so becuase the Church has declared them to be canonical. If the Church did not, I would not believe them to paraphrase St. Augustine. **The Church using the donation of faith has deemed all the 73 books of the Bi9ble to be scripture **becuase she has the ability to discern such things. Turtullian
…

It was the Catholic Church which, out of dozens and dozens
of books & letters all claiming to be “inspired”, declared at the COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON that only the 27 books we use today as the New Testament, are inspired.
Anyone who denies that is either an ignorant fool or a liar. Japeeto3

Is there some confusion here? Who is right? Is your brother Catholic Turtullian “a fool and a liar” Japeeto3?

As to the Church’s track record of persecution and burning so-called ‘heretics’ at the stake, I’ll leave that to any student of history to find out. The facts are not hard to find.

Once again, thank you,

Tony

Why cant you stick to one topic at a time? Why is your rage so evident in your responses? Tone it down and “get good with Jehovah” and say a prayer to reduce your anger prior to posting.

If the facts are not hard to find, provide them.

When are you going to bring up the Inquisition, the Crusades and the Whore of Babylon?

We have seen it all.

GO for it.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

I love it, don’t you?
These heretics who think we Catholics are a bunch of historically ignorant and biblically-illiterate IDIOTS come on to these forums
to teach us a thing or two, yet don’t even know what they are talking about, and get angry when we call them on the carpet for it. Of course, in their minds, we are instruments of Satan who is using us to “persecute” Jehovah’s only true witnesses.
What a crock.

In answer to “Tony” the JW, Turtullian was not wrong, nor was I.
There were several CATHOLIC councils which met to determine, affirm, and re-affirm the Canon (NOT “cannon”) of Scripture.
It was the Catholic church, and no one else, who chose the 27 books which we call the New Testament and which JWs refer to as The Greek Scriptures. The Catholic Church chose those books and letters, and rejected others.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[Damascus]

I am still waiting for any JW to answer my post *85…

 

[Mommyof02green]

All of the scriptural quotations can be found in any Catholic bible. Can you find them in yours?

Of course I can find them in my copy of the NAB, and I can find them in my copy of the KJV. However, it’s not the question of can they be found, it’s a question Is it being interpret the right way? How do you interpret the Bible? What guide do you use? How do you know that your interpretation is right? If you met 2 different people that have 2 different interpretations of the same passage, how do you know which one has the right interpretation? In other words when you have 2 different interpretations how do you decided which one is right, which one is wrong, or even that they both are wrong?

Again, can you point me to ANY Scripture which mentions Limbo or Purgatory (even the Church after centuries of assigning ones to Limbo is having a rethink on this)

Sure I can do this for you as soon as you give me Any Scripture passage that mentions the BIBLE as the being the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Thanks in advance for your help. Thanks in advance for give me the Scripture passage.

As the apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 Jerusalem Bible, but to “be a good teacher”. This of course requires one to know the Scriptures and be able to have “your answer ready” 1 Peter 3:15 (Jerusalem Bible) based on scripture.

I agree we have to know Scripture. To know Scripture means that we know Christ. To be ignorant of Scripture means that we are ignorant of Christ…At least that is my opinion on it.

That said, if you can prove to me that Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, or any similar doctrines are taught in the 66 books making up Holy Scripture I will come back to the Catholic Church.

Wow, you left the Catholic Church. I can’t imagine shutting the door on Christ. I can’t imagine proclaim Christ as my God, like Thomas, one day. To saying he was created and less then God, the next day. That must have been a hard pill to swallow."
Is Christ God?:

Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’” (Matt. 3:17). “I proceeded and came forth from God” (John 8:42). “If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God” (John 20:17). “The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Cor. 11:3). “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one” (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.” Or, “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Or, “All that the Father has is mine” (John 16:15). Or, “The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18). Or, “[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God). click here for source

 

[Mommyof02green]

That said, if you can prove to me that Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, or any similar doctrines are taught in the 66 books making up Holy Scripture I will come back to the Catholic Church.

I can only assume that you still have family members that belong to the Catholic Church. That must have been another hard pill to swallow. Having Holidays and Birthday Celebrations, to having NONE.

Holidays, in my opinion, are great time to celebrate the family, the life that God has given us. To be with each other, to reflect on the blessing that God has given us over the year, to laugh together, to cry together. To remember things about other family members did while they were here with us.

Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and I can’t wait. My brother who lives in another State will be there with is family. (He has the holiday weekend off of work so it’s the only time he can come) I get to see my nieces and nephews. My children get to play with their cousins. We are going to laugh, eat great food, and thank God that he has blessed us all with another year and another chance to see each other. We will also be spending some of our time with memories of Dad (he past away in 2004). It will be things remember when Dad did this…. Or did that…. My Children and nieces and nephews will get to hear these wonderful stories about Dad (their Grandpa), which is important because Dad died before he got to meet any of his grandchildren.

After all Dad was a God fearing and loving man, he was my first teacher about God, he was the first to teach me how to pray to God, taught me morals and what was right and wrong. My Dad with God helped shaped me to be the person I’m today. My kids are being taught many of the things that my Dad taught me. “Like don’t eat with your mouth open” or the importance of “pray to God for the blessing of your food before you eat”. It is great to share and remember, to love, “Love your neighbor as yourself”

Thanksgiving is around the corner, how can you bare another day without your family, without the love of the people that help shaped you and made you who you are today? Wow I can’t imagine… How can you deal with sorrow, if you don’t have loving shoulders to cry on? How can you deal with pain, when you can’t pick up the phone can call the one few people that knows you the best?

Wow, I can’t imagine a world without the Love of God and the Love of my family.

Also Christ himself was not against have a good time and a celebration here and there. He was at the wedding feast at Cana, and made more wine so the “party” could last a little bit longer. It’s my understanding that wedding feast lasted for days…. They were very long “celebrations” once the wine was gone the party was over. Christ made more wine.

 

[Damascus]

Thank you for your reply.

All of the scriptural quotations can be found in any Catholic bible. Can you find them in yours?

Again, can you point me to ANY Scripture which mentions Limbo or Purgatory (even the Church after centuries of assigning ones to Limbo is having a rethink on this)

As the apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 Jerusalem Bible, but to “be a good teacher”. This of course requires one to know the Scriptures and be able to have “your answer ready” 1 Peter 3:15 (Jerusalem Bible) based on scripture.

That said, if you can prove to me that Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, or any similar doctrines are taught in the 66 books making up Holy Scripture I will come back to the Catholic Church.

Once again,

Thank you,

Tony

This being said “Tony”

Who is the “faithful and discrete slave”?

 

[John832]

Hello again,

For some reason some are getting a little heated at comments made. Jesus got the same reaction from the scribes and Pharisees of his day when he spoke the truth.

The apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 (Catholic Jerusalem Bible), but to “be a good teacher”, as mentioned in my second comment. Engaging in quarrelling is therefore NOT my intention.

As far as the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures is concerned: Jesus accepted and used ONLY what are known as the Hebrew Scriptures (known by many as the Old Testament) - the books from Genesis to Malachi.

A few of his earliest apostles/disciples in the first century penned the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures (aka The New Testament) - Matthew to Revelation; and quoted extensively from the Hebrew Scriptures in support of their beliefs. They didn’t need a Council of this, that or the other, two of three centuries after the death of the apostle John to confirm their canonicity.

True Christians today likewise do not require a ‘stamp of approval’ from ones three or four hundred years AFTER the death of Christ to establish what is the ‘Word of God’.

As Christians, followers of Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses accept the self same books of Scripture which Jesus and his faithful apostles/disciples used, and believe that the truth is contained therein, and base ALL of their beliefs on what is found in those writings.

With real love for ALL, Jehovah’s Witnesses appeal to you, to do as the ancient Beroeans did: Study “the scriptures to check whether (what you are being taught is) true”. (Acts 17:11 Catholic Jerusalem Bible)

Again, if you love truth, you have nothing to fear from such an investigation of those canonical books from Genesis to Revelation - the Holy Scriptures.

“You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

Tony

 

[Turtullian]

Hello again,

For some reason some are getting a little heated at comments made. Jesus got the same reaction from the scribes and Pharisees of his day when he spoke the truth.

The apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 (Catholic Jerusalem Bible), but to “be a good teacher”, as mentioned in my second comment. Engaging in quarrelling is therefore NOT my intention.

If you are trying to declare that your beliefs are true and square with the Early Church, then you must back up your claims.

As far as the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures is concerned: Jesus accepted and used ONLY what are known as the Hebrew Scriptures (known by many as the Old Testament) - the books from Genesis to Malachi.

But all of the Old Testament quotes in the Nt come from the Greek Septuagint. So you are going to have to do better than that. Let’s not forget there was no closed Canon even during the time of Christ. The Pharisees adhered to not only the Pentatuch and the Tanach, but they considered the Talmud as binding as well. The Saducees only held to to the pentatuch as canonical. The Essenes had a larger canon, the Ethiopian Jews had the largest canon as they used not only the Septuagint but a larger canon that included other hebrew books as wells (like 1 enoch and Jubilees.) There was no set OT for Jews until after the Christians had come on the scene.

You are engaging in historical revisionism at best.

A few of his earliest apostles/disciples in the first century penned the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures (aka The New Testament) - Matthew to Revelation; and quoted extensively from the Hebrew Scriptures in support of their beliefs.

But where does scripture say that it is inspired. Paul claims his words are inspired but Peter says Paul’s words are inspired without Peter saying his words are inspired (which begs the question as to wether or not Peter’s own epistle is inspired). None of the Gospels claim inspiration (Luke actually had to go first hand sources to corroberate what he had been told), none the other Epistles claim inspiration.

Infact, thyere was no such unamity as you claim on several epistles, James, Jude, 1 and 2nd peter, Hebrews and Revelations were hotly debated for thier lateness and authorship. Several of the early and later canons place 4 of the 6 writings as a second NT canon as an amalgum of writings that have questionable authorship becuase of the lateness in which they appeared. Revelation was the Last book to entered into the Canon because it appeared later than the other epistles.

If something to be canonical has to have quotations in the NT, then we should have 1 enovh as part of the Canon. Jude literally quotes first enoch verbatimly.

They didn’t need a Council of this, that or the other, two of three centuries after the death of the apostle John to confirm their canonicity.

If the NT was so really set, then why the big arguements over 1 and 2 Peter, James, Jude and Revelation. Mnay early Christians were also reading at the time, the Acts of the martyrs, the Didache, heck even Wisdom at one point was read as a NT book.

True Christians today likewise do not require a ‘stamp of approval’ from ones three or four hundred years AFTER the death of Christ to establish what is the ‘Word of God’.

Show us these canon lists that predate Carthage that prove a 66 Book canon. Show us lists that show that the OT Canon was set in stone during the time of Christ? You can’t becuase they don’t exist, period.

As Christians, followers of Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses accept the self same books of Scripture which Jesus and his faithful apostles/disciples used, and believe that the truth is contained therein, and base ALL of their beliefs on what is found in those writings.

Proof please?

With real love for ALL, Jehovah’s Witnesses appeal to you, to do as the ancient Beroeans did: Study “the scriptures to check whether (what you are being taught is) true”. (Acts 17:11 Catholic Jerusalem Bible)

Begging the question as to what Scripture is.

 

[Damascus]

Hello again,

For some reason some are getting a little heated at comments made. Jesus got the same reaction from the scribes and Pharisees of his day when he spoke the truth.

Well, I do not fear. I trust that Jesus did not lie to us when he said he would be with us always.

You need to show me how your founder had a mission from God.

“he that entereth not by the door to the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same as a theif and a robber”
John 10:1

 

[Mommyof02green]

As far as the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures is concerned: Jesus accepted and used ONLY what are known as the Hebrew Scriptures (known by many as the Old Testament) - the books from Genesis to Malachi.

*What, Jesus didn’t read the New Testament??? He didn’t read and used Acts, 1 John, 1 Timothy? * I can’t speak for everyone here, but I do know that many of us know and realize that the New Testament was written after Christ Death and Resurrection, long after his ascension into Heaven. That is nothing new to many of us. That is nothing new to me. However, thanks for sharing.

With real love for ALL, Jehovah’s Witnesses appeal to you, to do as the ancient Beroeans did: Study “the scriptures to check whether (what you are being taught is) true”. (Acts 17:11 Catholic Jerusalem Bible)

Again how do you know what is being taught??? How do you interpret the scripture??? When 2 different people say it that it means 2 different things, how do you decided what is the truth???

Again, if you love truth, you have nothing to fear from such an investigation of those canonical books from Genesis to Revelation - the Holy Scriptures.

Do you believe that God is the author of the Bible?? Do you believe that God cannot contradict Himself??? Do you believe that the Bible is free from errors??? Do you believe that because God is the Author of the Bible that the passage cannot contradict themselves??? Do you believe that the WHOLE bible has to be used to determine what God wants from us???

“You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32) Tony

Yes “Tony” the truth will set you free.:bible1:

 

[Damascus]

Tony,

Does your Kingdom Hall have any miracles?

Oh, I know its the Bible right?

You sound like Islam now.

Their miracle is the Koran.

You both reject the Trinity.

Hmmmmm…

 

[Damascus]

Tony,

Where is my answer to post *85?

 

[MyPhilomena]

Damascus;

Here is the list from the link you provided for me:

freeminds.org/bethel/gov_body.htm

As for who is in charge, it is not just man, but who is REALLY behind those men? one hint, the father of the lie.

 

[Damascus]

Damascus;

Here is the list from the link you provided for me:

freeminds.org/bethel/gov_body.htm

As for who is in charge, it is not just man, but who is REALLY behind those men? one hint, the father of the lie.

Yes indeed. I have to wonder why there is so much secrecy about the formal structure of the WBTS.
Why do the rank and file Jw’s know nothing about Bethelites?
Why cant they tell us how they can trace themselves back to the apostles?
Invisible Chuch theory contradicts the Bible and Jesus.
Why cant they tell us anything about their founders backround?
Why cant they list the charitable efforts they have made?
Why dont they have a formal list of teachings and doctrines?
Why cant they tell us how Elders are chosen?
Why cant they answer a question without changing the subject?
I have more why’s but I will save them up for the Jw’s to answer.

Thanks for trying to help on post *85 but there are some unanswered questions there still.

 

[MyPhilomena]

Damascus;1608540]“Yes indeed. I have to wonder why there is so much secrecy about the formal structure of the WBTS.”

Many surmise its because they don’t want their members to know the facts.

Why do the rank and file Jw’s know nothing about Bethelites?

I’d like to know that myself!

Why cant they tell us how they can trace themselves back to the apostles?

Because their belief started in the late 19th century

Invisible Chuch theory contradicts the Bible and Jesus.

so so as my husband would say…

Why cant they tell us anything about their founders backround?

Likely because the newbies there don’t know it, and the older ones wont talk about it.

Why cant they list the charitable efforts they have made?

jw’s do not donate to charities, they only help build halls.
they give their land at times to the society and their money
to them as well.

Why dont they have a formal list of teachings and doctrines?

Yes, indeed, tell us please gspollet and john.

Why cant they tell us how Elders are chosen?

please, inform us of this process, i myself would like to know.

Why cant they answer a question without changing the subject?
I have more why’s but I will save them up for the Jw’s to answer.

why? simple: they cannot answer something that is the truth
because they do not want to hear it, or think we are apostates.

 

[Damascus]

Tony
Last for now, but not least- describe the JW baptism done today as opposed to years ago.

Word for word.

Tell me if it reconciles with Scripture.

Good luck with that one!

While you are at it, could you please tell me when you ever said the Our Father you mentioned in an earlier post?

Do you say the Our Father tony?
Jesus told you to…

I know, repititious prayer right?

How often is repititiuos for you? Never?

When have you fasted?
Is this “up to the individual” or “up to your consience”?

When have you done it last Tony?

 

[Damascus]

Well, I am not expecting any answers tonight, as the “tony” must need some help from his friends at the WBTS to refute and answer my questions.

He will be back unless he is a troll.

 

[MyPhilomena]

as far as i know damascus, when i was a jw we never said the Our Father. i don’t know why they wont say it even though our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ said we could say it!