The End of History and the Last Pope

[OriginalJS]

I have been following the abuse mess for years, as have many. What stands out to me is that few, if any, are attacking the Church; many, if not all, the attackers are going after persons in authority, priests, bishops, and now the Pope. Those persons being attacked are quite successfully misleading a lot of Catholics to believe that attacking them is attacking the Church. That just isn’t so.

Throughout its history, the Church has had some extremely unsavory persons gain positions of authority. They have been the subjects of vitriolic attacks, but the Church has survived. This is happening again.

The Church itself is free from error; the men who run it are not.

The Church will survive this tempest, although those guilty of malfeasance may have to pay the price.

None of this has changed any of my core beliefs. It only reminds me that men are sinful.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Here is a useful point of comparison:

abcnews.go.com/Blotter/abc-news-investigation-usa-swimming-coaches-raped-molested/story?id=10322469

I’ve seen very many articles on sporting coaches (particularly swim coaches, for some reason), abusing young athletes. What you never see in these articles is any attack on the institution of athletics, itself. Rather, the focus is rightfully on those individuals who abuse their trusted position.

 

[Soutane]

Here is a useful point of comparison:

abcnews.go.com/Blotter/abc-news-investigation-usa-swimming-coaches-raped-molested/story?id=10322469

I’ve seen very many articles on sporting coaches (particularly swim coaches, for some reason), abusing young athletes. What you never see in these articles is any attack on the institution of athletics, itself. Rather, the focus is rightfully on those individuals who abuse their trusted position.

'zactly

 

[Cerys]

You Americans are not the only ones at the receiving end of this viscious hate campaign.
Over here in Britain and Ireland; the gutter press and media have been having a field day for weeks, not so much at the laity, but at the church authorities and the pope in particular. ( I also think that there is some predujice in the fact that the pope is a German.)
It is easy to be wise with hindsight!

Yes appalling mistakes were made in the past, and we are paying for them now. When Our Lady of Fatima said that the pope would have much to suffer she was not joking. But “all things passeth” and please God we will be a better church for it.

If anyone of you can access the online British newspaper The Telegraph, there is a British journalist Damien Thompson who has been brave enough to write a series of articles in support of the pope. He is *not * covering up for him, but trying to put across facts that our biased media is ignoring.

I would also like to point out that Christopher Hitchens has been a known enemy of the Church long before this scandal blew up. I think that I am correct in stating that his brother Peter Hitchens has written in support of the Church but I do not know where he stands in this present scandal.

Please also pray that when the pope comes to visit Britain in September, the visit will be a successfull one.

Cerys

 

[mini_me640]

The statement of 10% was NOT my figure.It happened to be in an article that i was quoting.I however DID quote it so accept any blame for any overstatement or inaccuracies.I agree that 10% for pedophilia in non-Catholic Christianity is hyperbolic and probably absurd.But it DOES exist.

Of course pedophilia in non-Catholic Christianity does exist, I just think it’s important that we as Catholics don’t resort to the type slander & exaggeration against other groups that the mainstream media and enemies of the Church use against us. If we expect to be treated with accuracy, we need to do the same.

 

[lynx]

It’s a pretty bold statement to blame all of child pedophilia on the Catholic priesthood when a study done by the US Department of Education reported that children are 100 times more likely to be sexually assaulted by a public school teacher than a Catholic priest.

What? I made no such claim, as such a claim would be false. I was merely stating the church, or it’s messengers, were at fault in these child abuse cases. My gripe was that too much effort is being placed on vilifying these reporters, when really all Catholics should be thanking their God that these reporters were brave and bold enough to let them know that this conduct was happening under most of their noses.

 

[Lujack]

The Church is getting what its getting because it screwed up. That’s really all there is to it. It dropped the ball badly (and really, us lay Catholics dropped the ball badly by not demanding more decisive action and keeping an eye out; in general, we really just tried to skim the articles and hope it would go away eventually, and sooner rather than later). Are some of the attacks inaccurate and unjust? Yes. But do we have a strong enough moral position to be outraged about it? No. We screwed this one up badly.

So the only thing to do is to accept that when you blow it as badly as we have when it comes to the sexual abuse of children by priests, you’re going to get ripped from every angle imaginable. It will be years, maybe decades, maybe even a few generations, before all this finally fades away. Until then, all we can do is ignore it, not respond with righteous indignation, and fix things as best we can.

 

[lynx]

and really, us lay Catholics dropped the ball badly by not demanding more decisive action and keeping an eye out

The good thing about humans is that we’re really good at knowing what we did wrong, and then fixing it. But, when it comes to keeping an eye out, I don’t think any regular church goer could have done anything. This was an internal issue, not user end.

 

[Soutane]

Of course pedophilia in non-Catholic Christianity does exist, I just think it’s important that we as Catholics don’t resort to the type slander & exaggeration against other groups that the mainstream media and enemies of the Church use against us. If we expect to be treated with accuracy, we need to do the same.

What did I JUST say?

 

[JReducation]

This is not a competition between who did what more often. This is a double edged isssue. On the one hand we must always remember that the behavior of even many clerics and religious is not the bahavior of the majority. We must also remember that sinful behavior certainly affects how others look at us; but sinful behavior does not change truth. Even when the truth is proclaimed by those who are knee deep in the horrible and unjustifiable behavior, it remains truth. The doctrine and moral teachings of the Church have not changed. They remain what they have always been.

The other edge of this sword is that we have to regroup and help those who have been hurt, punish those who are guilty and look at the fact that these things are comming out today, but did not happen today or yesterday. We’re talking about behavior that goes back over half-century. In fact, the number of abuses that have occurred between 2000 and today are in the double digits compared to the triple digits that we have heard about between 1950 and 1990. There is an entirely new generation of priests and religious out there today. Even though one case of abuse is one too many, we must also look at data with a realistic perspective. The cases that we’re hearing about are not recent. In the USA alone the number of actual abuses in 2009 was under 10. While we are not proud of those 10 incidents, we should be proud that we’re doing something right. We must apologize for what we did or failed to do in the past. But we must also not despair about today, because the situation is radically different. We have to share this good news with the world. That being said, we have to bite the bullet when others who don’t understand the difference between truth and sin attack our faith for the crimes that have been committed. I don’t believe it’s just the clergy and religiuos who must bite the bullet, it’s every Catholic. We have to ask how many parents ever noticed anything unusual going on and never stepped in to find out more or how many parents didn’t even notice, because they were too busy with their lives. Less children and teens get into this kind of trouble when all of the adults are doing their part.

We blame much of this behavior on homosexual clergy. This may be true. I’m not an expert on sexual behaviors. But the reason tha we blame it on gay clergy is because so much of this abuse happened to teenage boys. Without placing blame on the boys, the question has to be asked, are we teaching our teens good judgments? As long as society continues to feed teens that sex is a game, we will have teens that engage in dangerous activities with adults or other teens only to be hurt. They have bought into a lie, but discover it too late.

In conclusion the double edges of this sword are that we have seen horrible behavior that must be punished and for which the Church must apologize. But these behaviors do not change what the deposit of truth in the Catholic Church. Just because the messenger is sinful or criminal does not mean that the message is wrong. The two have to be kept separate. I always give a silly example, but I believe that it conveys the meaning of what I’m saying. Someone is a smoker, but tells his children how unhealthy smoking is for them and why they should avoid it. He is tellling the truth, even though he’s not taking his own counsel. This is the situation that we have here.

Sometimes we let our emotions blurr the lines. This is natural when we feel passionate about something. That’s why it is always good to step back and not say anything for a while to allow ourselves to gather our composure or another thing that works is to discuss our feelings with someoen who is in a calmer state of mind who will help us separate the sinner from the truth that he proclaims.

I hope this helps someone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[m8g8]

I’m not worried about the accusations. What happened was obviously wrong and I believe how the press are treating it are also in the wrong as they are jumping at an opportunity see our Church as bad (which was founded by Jesus). Obviously people sin. The Pope may make mistakes, but he can’t make a mistake involving the Word because the Spirit would prevent that.

Jesus said that people would be against us for believing in him and that we should be happy if we are persecuted for our faith. I think the same principles apply here.

I hope this doesn’t sound like a load of aimless rambling, but it’s my thoughts

 

[Young_Thinker]

At least nowadays, the Church practices some oversight over its clergy’s behavior. For instance, I am sure that a case of Pietro Cardinal Ottrobino(the last Cardinal-Nephew, who had 60 or more children according to Montesqieu) would not be overlooked. However, fornication and even adultery are less worse offenses than erotically abusing children of one’s own gender.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The Church is getting what its getting because it screwed up. That’s really all there is to it. It dropped the ball badly (and really, us lay Catholics dropped the ball badly by not demanding more decisive action and keeping an eye out; in general, we really just tried to skim the articles and hope it would go away eventually, and sooner rather than later). Are some of the attacks inaccurate and unjust? Yes. But do we have a strong enough moral position to be outraged about it? No. We screwed this one up badly.

So the only thing to do is to accept that when you blow it as badly as we have when it comes to the sexual abuse of children by priests, you’re going to get ripped from every angle imaginable. It will be years, maybe decades, maybe even a few generations, before all this finally fades away. Until then, all we can do is ignore it, not respond with righteous indignation, and fix things as best we can.

Excellent response…Just like all the comments about satan’s attacks…How about reaping what has been sown ?

 

[Soutane]

Excellent response…Just like all the comments about satan’s attacks…How about reaping what has been sown ?

Not ONE organization on the face of this earth has not sinned in this way,from the FAMILY for God’s sake to non-Catholic Christian eclaisial bodies.One instance of homosexual predatory behaviour upon young men and pubescent boys is too much.We rightly expect MUCH MORE from the ONLY Church Divinely instituted by Christ.These clerical rats are being exposed to the light of day for which we can be thankful,but the Enemy and the enemies of Truth are using this self-inlicted tragedy as an excuse to try to silence the Truth that ONLY the Catholic Church teaches about so-called same sex marriage,abortion,euthanasia and pornography,and contraception.(Except for the Orthodox).
We have to be willing to be crucified like Christ was for the sins of some(in his case all)but let us not forget the motivation of the Pharisees and saducees and elders who screamed for His crucifixtion and those who scream for ours.
Christ had one Judas in Twelve-in proportion we have far fewer.However one crime by an ephebophiliac is too many.

 

[mini_me640]

What did I JUST say?

I wasn’t disagreeing with what you said; you seem kind of defensive about this… You made the statement that the 10% figure was probably hyperbolic and absurd; I agree. I was just saying, in general (not directed at you personally) that we need to be sure not to spread false information about other groups if we are going to be upset when the same is done to us. It was not meant as a personal attack on you in any way. Don’t you agree that all of us need to be sure not to throw out incorrect information about such a grave matter as pedophilia?

 

[Hiskid1973]

Not ONE organization on the face of this earth has not sinned in this way,from the FAMILY for God’s sake to non-Catholic Christian eclaisial bodies.One instance of homosexual predatory behaviour upon young men and pubescent boys is too much.We rightly expect MUCH MORE from the ONLY Church Divinely instituted by Christ.

Man, you seem real defensive…Never said any other group is better than another…Your church has been doing alot of damage control lately…Fires constantly popping up from from movement and concealment in order to protect the church from scandal…There needs to be some major housecleaning with the unrepentant abusers put out of the church and the leadership involved in cover up be relieved of duty and undergo counciling…Your church’s needs to clean house to restore credibility…To be above reproach and harmless of a doves…Laity has the right to have a safe and godly house…This is scary and it was recent:
mysanantonio.com/news/religion/Priest_sued_over_sexual_abuse.html?showFullArticle=y

But they are doing better in response rather than keeping it covered…

 

[Soutane]

Man, you seem real defensive…Never said any other group is better than another…Your church has been doing alot of damage control lately…Fires constantly popping up from from movement and concealment in order to protect the church from scandal…There needs to be some major housecleaning with the unrepentant abusers put out of the church and the leadership involved in cover up be relieved of duty and undergo counciling…Your church’s needs to clean house to restore credibility…To be above reproach and harmless of a doves…Laity has the right to have a safe and godly house…This is scary and it was recent:
mysanantonio.com/news/religion/Priest_sued_over_sexual_abuse.html?showFullArticle=y

But they are doing better in response rather than keeping it covered…

Apeing another poster’s incorrect assessment of my “defensiveness” lends you neither credibility nor authority.Surely one can be more original than that.
To YOU I may SEEM to be a lot of things,but personal “defensiveness” is a mischaracterization,and a bit of an ad hominum…I do defend the True Faith I admit and it is difficult to do because of some slavering wolves amongst us.But if you’ll reread my post nowhere did I defend the actions of those "priests"or administrators whom I could cheerfully strangle.
I pointed out that this “problem” exists at ALL levels of society and especially within the family and protestantism(did that sting?)-would you care for me to trot out many and recent scandals and some interesting assessments by Insurance companies.?I’d rather spare you the embarrassment but I WILL accomodate you if you insist.Tit for tat is SO boring but ,if you asseverate…
I stated that ONE instance of predatory homosexual behaviour was too many to tolerate within the Body of Christ but perhaps in your haste to to label me as defensive you did not notice that. What is do resent is the glee and schadenfreude exhibited by the enemies of the Church during our present misery.
I stated that we will be and deserve to be crucified for the sins and coverups of a minority of our members.I also pointed out the motivation of SOME of the present day Pharisees who howl for blood.
But perhaps you consider it outre and gauche for a Catholic to have the effontery to point out a few pertinent facts,in defense of the Bride of Christ.Mea culpa,mea culpa,mea maxima culpa.

 

[Soutane]

I wasn’t disagreeing with what you said; you seem kind of defensive about this… You made the statement that the 10% figure was probably hyperbolic and absurd; I agree. I was just saying, in general (not directed at you personally) that we need to be sure not to spread false information about other groups if we are going to be upset when the same is done to us. It was not meant as a personal attack on you in any way. Don’t you agree that all of us need to be sure not to throw out incorrect information about such a grave matter as pedophilia?

What did I JUST JUST say?
And PLEASE stop referring it to pedophilia which is primarily a heterosexual affliction involving the sexual interference with babies,toddlers and pre-pubescent children of either sex.Over 80% of these vile acts were perpetratred on young men and pubescent boys which is referred to as hebephilia or ephebophilia which is homosexual in nature.These miscreants are labeled “Chickenhawks” in revulsion and disgust by responsible members of the Homosexual community.

 

[JReducation]

Man, you seem real defensive…Never said any other group is better than another…Your church has been doing alot of damage control lately…Fires constantly popping up from from movement and concealment in order to protect the church from scandal…There needs to be some major housecleaning with the unrepentant abusers put out of the church and the leadership involved in cover up be relieved of duty and undergo counciling…Your church’s needs to clean house to restore credibility…To be above reproach and harmless of a doves…Laity has the right to have a safe and godly house…This is scary and it was recent:
mysanantonio.com/news/religion/Priest_sued_over_sexual_abuse.html?showFullArticle=y

But they are doing better in response rather than keeping it covered…

When speaking of credibility we must make a very important distinction between Church teaching and the behavior of individuals. These abhorrent behaviors do not cast any shadows on the teachings of the Catholic Church. Christ, the Gospels, the Sacraments, the Creed, our dogmas and our morals have not changed because there are many sinners in the Church. Those sins do not change the truth that the Church teaches.

If someone is going to say that the Church’s truths are not credible, because of the sins of her people, then that person has a very serious challenge. He or she must prove that these truths are no longer truth.

Our Holy Father Francis was confronted with the same issue when he founded our order. There were many priests in the area who were less than model citizens, maybe even child abusers for all we know. But he wrote something into our admonitions that made perfect sense.

“If I were to meet an angel and the corrupt and sinful priest in the world, I would still show respect first to the priest and then to the angel, because the truth does not change. Even the most corrupt and sinful priest can give me something that the angel does not have the poewr to do. It is only through the words of the priest that we can see the physical body and blood of Christ that we consume in the Eucharist and it is only through the words of the priest that we can be absolved from sin. No angel can consecrate bread and wine and confect the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No angel has the power to absolve our sins.”

At the time there were many hostile feelings toward priests, because of the corruption among many clerics in the Middle Ages. Many of our early brothers expressed the same hostility. Francis laid the point out for them. He accepted that some of the most corrupt and sinful men in the world were priests (obviously other corrupt and sinful people were not priests). But he also accepted that the corruption and the sin had no power over the truth regarding the sacraments. The brothers were to convert the priest, but also teach the laity to separate the sin from the faith. The former does not change the latter.

What Francis taught us that only those who cannot separate faith from sin have an issue with credibility, because they have an unrealisit vision that Truth is dependent on the holiness of the messenger. Francis did a great deal to convert errant priests and was very successful. Many of them became brothers in our order. He also made a great effort to convert Catholics and was also very successful. He was so successful that he ended up founding the first order for married people, which today has 600,000 members, 800 years later.

We need to take this approach again. We need to separate sin from faith. Sin does not change the truth of the faith. It hurts the individual, not the Truth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[mini_me640]

What did I JUST JUST say?
And PLEASE stop referring it to pedophilia which is primarily a heterosexual affliction involving the sexual interference with babies,toddlers and pre-pubescent children of either sex.Over 80% of these vile acts were perpetratred on young men and pubescent boys which is referred to as hebephilia or ephebophilia which is homosexual in nature.These miscreants are labeled “Chickenhawks” in revulsion and disgust by responsible members of the Homosexual community.

Umm… it was you that (incorrectly) stated that 10% of Protestant pastors were found guilty of pedophilia and only 1.7% of Catholic priests had been accused. As you will see below I only used the word in reference to the incorrect statistic about Protestant pastors when I said we need to be sure to have accurate information if we are going to accuse people of pedophilia. Whew, you need to calm down a little bit.

Originally Posted by mini_me640
I wasn’t disagreeing with what you said; you seem kind of defensive about this… You made the statement that the 10% figure was probably hyperbolic and absurd; I agree. I was just saying, in general (not directed at you personally) that we need to be sure not to spread false information about other groups if we are going to be upset when the same is done to us. It was not meant as a personal attack on you in any way. Don’t you agree that all of us need to be sure not to throw out incorrect information about such a grave matter as pedophilia?