P
- Status
C
czarlazar
Guest
czarlazar;12899458:
The mudroom, I like that!
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Now we are getting somewhere!
Yes, purgatory is nothing but the process of God turning us from fallen humans to holy saints the purging of our sinfulness.
We know this must occur and we call it purgatory. The how is a mystery. People have speculated but it’s just speculation and not doctrine.
M
Memaw
Guest
I find it very interesting that every day in the obituaries, there are memorials to loved ones such as, “Johnny, it’s been 10 years since you left us and We love you now as much as ever. We will never forget you”. etc. etc., Can Johnny read the paper??? I believe it is in the heart of everyone to “keep in touch” with those that have died. It seems to be a natural desire. I have talked to many protestants that say they “talk” to their dead husband, child, mother etc. regularly. In the Catholic Church we call that the Communion of Saints. If they can “hear” us, they can pray for us. And we can still pray for them to help atone for whatever they need. Jesus himself said we have to atone for every sin, either in this world or in the next!! Now what do you suppose that means? Or do you just overlook it? God Bless, Memaw
M
Memaw
Guest
Purgatory is a Doctrine of the Church and it does NOT purge us of our sinfulness. We must be sorry for our sins BEFORE we die. It does atone for sin, repair the damage done by our sins.Our prayers can help them. If I damage your fence, I not only have to be sorry for that but I also have atone for the damage done. God Bless, Memaw
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Yep. A person in purgatory is a saved person. It’s a matter of entering heaven later.
M
Memaw
Guest
And Luther has all the say??? God Bless, MemawActually I don’t believe in purgatory. Jesus says in John 14:1-3:
“1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also."
Jesus doesn’t say, “I’m going to prepare a place for you but you’ll have to stay in a halfway house for a while first.” As for that sentence in Revelations, Luther didn’t like Revelations very much anyway and wanted to remove it from the canon.
S
steido01
Guest
The definition of purgation is “to purify, expel, remove, eradicate; often violently.” Now for a soul to be truly cleansed, wouldn’t that require a purging of our sinful nature – our sinfulness? How does simply wiping off the stain make us pure for heaven if we retain our sinfulness?
This seems a major departure from what I thought PR was explaining earlier; from what I understood, she holds that purgatory cleanses the soul of its very sinfulness. And your assertion seems wholly contradictory to what Pope Benedict XVI explained in Jon’s post 420, where he explains purgation to be, “the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints” (bolding mine). I, as a Lutheran, can generally accept that concept, though I would consider purgation to be more instantaneous event (I’ll not speculate when nor how, but consider it a Divine Mystery, as the Orthodox) than place. At some point, God must finally purge my soul of its inclination to sin via an inward transformation, just as Benedict explains. But if He does not cleanse me inside and out, then how can I ever expect to enter heaven?
And regarding atonement… how can we poor, sinful, beings ever make up for the great offense that even our tiniest sin causes God? We can’t. That’s why we have to look to Christ’s once-and-for-all Sacrifice as our Atonement. He has already taken our sins to the cross and made satisfaction on our behalf. That’s why He said, “τετέλεσται,” meaning, “It is completed/accomplished/finished!”
And this gives us great comfort. We’ve been given life through the cross. We can rest assured that “He who believes and is Baptized shall be saved!” We don’t need to remain in a state of constant fear, wondering whether we’ve become good enough to be saved. We start thinking that way, and we stop worshiping God; instead, we’re either: resigned to give up on that vengeful judge of a god who leaves us to fend for ourselves, or worse, start worshiping the inner improving god – “me.”
I’m not familiar with that saying, but I do know what your Church taught at at the Council of Trent, Sixth Session. Chapter IX: “Against the Vain Faith of Heretics”:
No one can know that they have received God’s grace!? Does that mean the Sacraments don’t always work? Or that maybe they weren’t done properly? Or that maybe we aren’t believing hard enough? Doing enough works? Giving enough alms? If people can’t find any real comfort in the Cross, then why bother? This is just begging people to suffer from scruples.We -]is/-] are certainly impressed. Drat! I can’t do it.(Who knew a sentence could be constructed that is grammatically correct that juxtaposes “we is” together)
S
steve_b
Guest
Protestantism is material heresy and it has caused horrible amounts of division in Christianity. So allow me to reverse your question. Are you insinuating heresy and division doesn’t matter for protestants making it to heaven?
If so, I’m thinking what do protestants do with all the warnings in scripture that condemn heresy and division as it does those who do it?
s:
Don’t put this on me. I’m just quoting from reliable sourcesThis was my understanding, too. But the way Steve puts it, well… he seems to insinuate that the vast majority of Protestants are not saved. Hardly seems like we are considered fellow Christians.
Example:
As far as “Christians” are concerned, the following are all “Christians” The Great Heresies . Are they saved anyway regardless of their heresies and divisions they caused?
if so, why then would Paul write the following?
Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
Just thinking outloud
Are you saying Paul is wrong about warning those in heresy won’t be going to heaven? Does he even have a right to say they are condemned? Maybe you’re thinking, who is he to be judging ANYONE?
Look at the following Greek word διχοστασίας dichostasia* =* division / dissension / factions /sedition,
That word is used in the following passages Romans 16:17-20 ,& Galatians 5:19-21
Do you see the consequences for that sin if one dies in it? They won’t be going to heaven.
As you can see, all this is NOT my opinion, it is NOT according to** ME. **I’m just passing along information.
God is the judge. And that’s why scripture is soooo important in filling in our knowledge of things to come and the warnings that are there
P
PRmerger
Guest
Think of purgatory as a rather painful (but perversely joyful) peeling away of the scabs that lie on our body, in order to reveal the pure, new, clean skin beneath.
It does remove our sinfulness, or concupiscence, our attachment to sin.
And please note: this is all done by Christ, through Christ, in Christ.
Christ has EVERYTHING to do with this process.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Perhaps my wording was not clear. I meant purging of our sinful nature. Our attachment to sin. And the speculation I meant in regards to the “how”. The doctrine of purgatory is that it exists, it involves suffering of some kind, and the prayers of the church aid those going through it.
The ins and outs of how it works, time, etc. are speculations.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Yeah… I’m pretty sure that one sentence needs to be read in the context of the entire document.I’m not familiar with that saying, but I do know what your Church taught at at the Council of Trent, Sixth Session. Chapter IX: “Against the Vain Faith of Heretics”:
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Probably it does (purifying our sinful nature). We really do not know about the details. Logically speaking, that’s not what purgatory does though. It is a purification of sins not fully repented temporally. I agree with a Catholic poster in an another earlier thread who said that we may not have done perfect contrition. The sin is forgiven but are not being fully contrite about it.
As for our sinful nature, this is usually associated with original sin, which is propensity to sin, that was washed away in baptism. But if it is the one mentioned in Gal 5, probably yes, too. Trying to define too much other than what is taught about purgatory may run into the risk of being speculative though.
Reuben
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
The catechism is clear that repenting of sins only occurs in this life, not after death. When you speak of perhaps imperfect contrition, that is an attachment to sin but sin was repented of nonetheless.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
S
steido01
Guest
Separate issue. But I would be wonder why earthly division should absolutely, necessarily separate any individual or ecclesial body from Christ.
We’d admonish them to accept the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Faith in its beautiful clarity.
I know. And yet so are other Catholics (including those in the Magisterium!), who come to different conclusions.
'Zactly. Thank you.
Sure thing. I am all about context. Here’s the whole chapter in its entirety:
CHAPTER IX: Against the Vain Confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
So Trent seems to re-write Paul, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, [and keep on trembling] for it is God who [may or may not actually be doing] works in you, both to [maybe] will and to [maybe] work for his good pleasure. [Good luck, and happy doubting!]”:tiphat:But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
S
steve_b
Guest
Error has no “rights”. People don’t have a “right” to error. They have free will to choose between right and wrong… But no one has the “right” to error.
LS:
I know. And it is NOT without consequences for them.BTW, as I’ve quoted many times, Paul calls heretics who refuse to change after being informed of their errors, perverted and sinful and self condemned.
Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
iow, Paul doesn’t hammer anyone. He gives the message, and or correction, a few times then moves on. It’s one’s free will that makes them culpable for the consequences that come from what is done or not done.
LS:
His Church is the Catholic Church. No other. **#34 . **It’s been given all the promises of Jesus, it’s been here for 2000 years, and will be forever!
Scripture is abundantly clear about the consequences for anybody trying to spend time and energy in this life trying to justify dividing what Jesus died to establish. It’s a huge exercise in futility, not to mention, in the end, because it’s a grave sin, will have terrible consequence for that soul in the next life.
P
PRmerger
Guest
P
PRmerger
Guest
Egg-zactly!
S
steido01
Guest
Agreed, Steve. And the Lutheran Confessions agree, too – even using the same verses you do (what are you up to?
):If I may… most Lutherans take our dissension from Rome very seriously and solemnly, but also see it as a necessity. From the Lutheran Confessions:LutheranScholar:
See the bolded. When the Catholic priest claims to stand in persona Christi and announce forgiveness to the laity, he might not actually be granting forgiveness. Better work harder for heaven. Are ‘you’ good enough yet?
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I see nothing wrong with Trents words here…other than you erroneously reading into the text.Separate issue. But I would be wonder why earthly division should absolutely, necessarily separate any individual or ecclesial body from Christ.
We’d admonish them to accept the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Faith in its beautiful clarity.
I know. And yet so are other Catholics (including those in the Magisterium!), who come to different conclusions.
'Zactly. Thank you.
Sure thing. I am all about context. Here’s the whole chapter in its entirety:
CHAPTER IX: Against the Vain Confidence of Heretics.So Trent seems to re-write Paul, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, [and keep on trembling] for it is God who [may or may not actually be doing] works in you, both to [maybe] will and to [maybe] work for his good pleasure. [Good luck, and happy doubting!]”:tiphat:
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
All it says is that presumption of salvation as seen by so many OSAS and faith alone types is wrong. It’s error, it’s pride, and it presumes on Gods mercy.
They go on to say the correct approach is to be assured of Gods mercy, remain in him and do not presume that which you do not know until death.
- Status