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Sherlock
Guest
Yes, how easy it is to castigate others about wealth using the computer and chair Daddy bought.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
The Iambic Pen:
The problem and it seems to be an increasing one is what do you do when both candidates are pro-murdering babies in their mother’s womb? 
That’s my feeling too. Those issues are intrinsically evil so it makes voting a tragic simplicity.
The problem and it seems to be an increasing one is what do you do when both candidates are pro-murdering babies in their mother’s womb?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Time for the Parable of the Skydivers again.That’s my feeling too. Those issues are intrinsically evil so it makes voting a tragic simplicity.
The problem and it seems to be an increasing one is what do you do when both candidates are pro-murdering babies in their mother’s womb?
Two men were skydiving. They jumped from 12,000 feet, one of them without a parachute. As they fell free from the plane, he shouted to his companion, “Tell me what I should do now!”
And his companion replied, “I really can’t tell you what you should do now. But if you had asked five seconds ago, I could tell you what you should not do.”
Most disasters occurr because people wait until too late to take action.
Don’t wait until the election to act. If you want candidates you can vote for, you have to get good men to run. Become politically active. Bring in your friends and energize them. Encourage pro-life people to run. Work for them – raise money, put out signs, and so on.
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Penny_Plain
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What a fascinating thread. For those who are arriving late, I’ll summarize.
College Catholic: “Our church and its members sometimes are selfish and aren’t using our resources to help the truly needy.”
Wolesely: “Why don’t you talk about sin? What about sin?”
Semper Fi: “What are you doing about it?”
InnocentIII: “You are rude and immature and lack theological sophistication.”
WJP984: “The trick is to be called to be wealthy. Move to China if you don’t like it here.”
OldFogey: “You’re a just kid with nothing to offer. Be quiet and get a job.”
Sherlock: “You’re a hypocrite because you have a computer and a chair that your daddy bought.”
CollegeCatholic, I don’t agree with everything you’re saying. But if you’re provoking absurd defensive reactions like this, I think you’ve touched a nerve. Give 'em h-e-double hockey sticks!
College Catholic: “Our church and its members sometimes are selfish and aren’t using our resources to help the truly needy.”
Wolesely: “Why don’t you talk about sin? What about sin?”
Semper Fi: “What are you doing about it?”
InnocentIII: “You are rude and immature and lack theological sophistication.”
WJP984: “The trick is to be called to be wealthy. Move to China if you don’t like it here.”
OldFogey: “You’re a just kid with nothing to offer. Be quiet and get a job.”
Sherlock: “You’re a hypocrite because you have a computer and a chair that your daddy bought.”
CollegeCatholic, I don’t agree with everything you’re saying. But if you’re provoking absurd defensive reactions like this, I think you’ve touched a nerve. Give 'em h-e-double hockey sticks!
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Sherlock
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Penny Plain:
No one is disputing that American Catholics need to be concerned for the poor, and sometimes act selfishly. The objection to CollegeCatholic has to do with his self-righteous tone (most annoying in college kids who aren’t paying their own way in life) and his flawed views of other issues. Those are the nerve-touchers, not the orthodox Catholic teaching that we need to share our wealth and give to the poor.
Speaking of absurd reactions, you’ve delivered what I’ve come to expect from you. You never disappoint…
No one is disputing that American Catholics need to be concerned for the poor, and sometimes act selfishly. The objection to CollegeCatholic has to do with his self-righteous tone (most annoying in college kids who aren’t paying their own way in life) and his flawed views of other issues. Those are the nerve-touchers, not the orthodox Catholic teaching that we need to share our wealth and give to the poor.
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
Thanks for your interesting insights!
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
There are many evils associated with capitalism and I think JPII did a good job of speaking on that.
I have only lived in the US for 8 of my 21 years with the rest being in Germany (first world) and the Azores (second world). Most of my experience with the extreme poor of the world is through media (books and television) and the talks of social workers, sociologists, and economists. One source in particular is through the writings of religious who serve(d) the third world such as Archbishop Oscar Romero, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and many more.
I apologize for not making it clear that when I spoke of people’s basic needs not being met, I didn’t mean stereos.
Most importantly, I feel that the social teachings of the Church and the implications of Christ’s message to love my neighbor as myself are “platitudes” that I feel compelled to take seriously. To whom else would I go?
I am studying Youth Ministry, Religion, and German with integrated studies emphasis on social work and education. I graduate this year to join the Fellowship of Catholic University Students where I feel called to challenge the world’s future leaders to answer Christ’s radical call. In doing so I am giving up stable income, luxury, and my two year relationship with my girlfriend. All of this is in order to do my best to give my life to God. I realize that I have very little to give but college is a means in which God is empowering me to handle the tough/complex issues that we as Catholics in the contemporary world face. Obviously I haven’t learned anything considering many of your comments.
If by “your own personal agenda” you mean building a culture of Life then yes. I have nothing to gain but to see the Christ within all of humanity recognized and thus, the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death upheld.
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Penny_Plain
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I never disappoint? Honey, you’re making me blush.
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
As close to a complete generalization that you could find. Very interesting. Only had to read through 17 points to find it?
I respect utilitarianism in that it attempts to counter idealism and set it in the “real” world. With that said, although it is of course required that we give more resources to bigger problems, the wonderful thing about ideals is that it doesn’t cost any money. While I am not saying we should use an equal amount of resources to fight capital punishment along with abortion, I do think that we need to not focus on abortion almost exclusively. We must also emphasize other very important social/moral issues such as capital punishment. Now that I think about it, of all of the terrible problems out there, why are we putting so much time, money, and effort in fighting homosexuality?? There’s a million and one different sexual sins out there, almost all of them damaging the family, much of them supported by society, and yet issues of life and death such as the death penalty and oppressive political/economic systems aren’t in the spotlight? I can’t exactly explain the way in which we distribute our resources or why some topics are SO IMPORTANT and others are glazed over.
I appreciate your post though, very contributional to the discussion!
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
I sure do have a lot to say in defense of my not being self righteous! To think I had been responding to various issues from poverty/wealth and capital punishment to Church teaching and my competence to “preach.”
It is very apparent that one is not qualified to speak on matters of money until one has become attached enough to it. Since I don’t “pay my own way” then I can have no say on the proper use of money. When I get a “real job” I will hold dearly to my “earned” money and whether it be taxes or tithing I will hold on dearly to it, enjoying my “earned” luxuries, even in light of those who don’t even have their basic needs met. Don’t get me wrong, I will certainly feel bad for the “have nots” as I am a Christian, afterall. Certainly not completely cold hearted. I will pray that the poor and the oppressed would not focus on their sufferings but remember that we are all called to personal holiness and we should accept that which is given, or not given, to us. I will not have too much sympathy as it is obvious that in most cases, they don’t have anything because they are not willing to work for those things, unlike what I have done in my life. I’m not called to be radical, just rational. Although Jesus said “love thy neighbor as thy self” he meant it symbolically and thus, you should be concerned for the neighbor but not compelled to take action on their behalf since “God helps those who help themselves.” Afterall, I need to look out for number one first and foremost and this includes some luxuries that I have rightly earned. I have a right to comfort and possession so I will proclaim those rights to the highest heights.
And so the story goes…
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
Penny Plain:
“They’re twitterpated!”
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pgoings
Guest
The OP posits that American Catholics live a life of luxury which is unattainable by the vast majority of the rest of the people in the world. This is by-and-large true, and it is also true that we could do more for the relief of those people.
That said, I have heard these pronouncements before from others, and they all seem to have one thing in common: The person putting forward the condemnation of his fellow American Catholics usually refuses to deal with specifics. So here are some very specific questions:
That said, I have heard these pronouncements before from others, and they all seem to have one thing in common: The person putting forward the condemnation of his fellow American Catholics usually refuses to deal with specifics. So here are some very specific questions:
- What are the parameters of the basic lifestyle that we should seek to live? What “luxuries” are permitted and which are not? How much square footage per per person is allowable for housing?
- May we attend college? What subjects may we study? What fields of employment may we legitimately pursue?
- How may our leisure time be use? May we go on vacation? Where? May we fly on airplanes and stay in hotels?
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
pgoings said:
[Be modest in your luxuries. Instead of a BMW buy a used Civic with good fuel efficiency and mid to low mileage and carpool and/or ride a bike as much as possible. Instead of a 70" plasma buy a 36" projection tv. Be sensitive of one’s children’s need of some basic privacy but also don’t spend extra money on a house with such excessive room that you have a den, a dining room, and a living room all simultaneously as this is all excess space that must be furnished and heated/cooled and is seldomn used. Consider this extra space, including additional storage space, and convert this into additional bed rooms.]
[If God calls you to attend college. Whatever God compels you to study. Whatever field of study God calls you to in light of your natural gifts/talents and the will to bring forth God’s will “on earth as it is in heaven.” Certain fields are strictly off-limits and God will not call us to them.]
[As long as it is responsible and is used effectively to aid one’s emotional, physical, and spiritual well-being and also to be constantly aware of the needs of others, especially our families. We are called to a constant state of prayer so we can never really “go on vacation” from being ever available to God.]
I put all of these answers in brackets (or whatever they are called) because I can’t actually give definitive and specific answers as there is no “cure all” for Christian economics. Some of us are called to the single life, others to huge families, others to the religious life. Within each of our specific vocations there exist a plethora of situations in which we must open the eyes of our hearts and handle them with Christian charity and Christ-like compassion. We are all called to be the woman with the copper pennies. Not in the sense that she had little income, but in the sense that she gave what she could. If anything, she gave what she didn’t really have as she was obviously laying it out for God to take control of and had trust that He would provide. I have no doubt that He did and will do so for us, whether that be actual finances or the grace to get through the tough times. We are all called to love our neighbors as ourselves and some of us will be called to love the neighbor in a very direct way much like Mother Teresa or in a more indirect way like through legislation, education, ministry, adoption, foster care, or general volunteering of time, money, prayers, etc. With that said, we need to give until it hurts. If we are truly open to God and offer up our whole lives He will use our resources absolutely effectively and our modest five loaves and two fish will feed the masses. I pray that our charity be increased and our luxury be decreased. I pray that when Jesus asks us “where were you when I was cold and hungry, naked and in prison?” we may respond “With you, Lord.” How we are to be with Him will be entirely up to how much of our life we are willing to hand over to God and in what way God leads us from there. May we all answer the call to sainthood.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
CK, you fell into the trap. Now you’re just a presumptuous college kid who’s willing to tell everyone else exactly what to do. Guess you’ll have to come back in 20 years.
My answer to you, PGoings, would be terribly nonspecific and unhelpful. I expect it to be dismissed out of hand.
My answer would be that you should follow the dictates of your own conscience (properly formed, natch) regarding what is necessary in your life and what is luxury because it will vary from person to person.
It’s possible to be a big-shot Catholic corporate lawyer, for example, and earn a million a year. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, depending on how you practice law, and 20 percent of that million a year can be used to do far more good than 100 percent of my income. Plus, such a person has access to other people like him, with resources, and he can use his influence with them to cause even more good to be done.
For somebody like that, an expensive car is part of the package. You can’t live in that world and drive a '92 Toyota Corolla with rust holes in it the size of a human head. But you can determine what’s necessary to your career and your image, and what’s not.
That lesson is there for all of us, whatever life we lead. For some people, a 3000-square-foot house is a ridiculous waste of resources. For others, it’s still not enough room to host charitable functions or stash all the kids.
I know you won’t like my answer, either, PGoings. You’re an American (right?), and part of the American way is to believe you can do whatever you want with your wealth because God gave it to you. I grew up in a very similar culture, although it was a long way from America. I understand.
But it’s not the only way to look at things. And your defensiveness on the issue makes me think you’re starting to realize that.
Good luck.
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
Why does being a lawyer necessitate driving a nice car? That might be traditional due to some sort of image of success but last time I check there was no “What car do you drive?” on the BAR…
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
I’m also interested in how pgoings and others respond to my responses/rebuttals…
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Penny_Plain
Guest
No kidding.
It depends on the kind of lawyer you are. Very successful people hire lawyers who are successful. In that world, you show success by the suits you wear and the car you drive. You might be the best mergers and acquisitions lawyer around, but a Fortune 500 company is not going to hire you if you drive an '89 Hyundai and dress like a hobo.
That’s just how the world works.
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CollegeCatholic
Guest
Penny Plain:
With that said, Johnnie Cochran is still Johnnie Cochran regardless of the car he drives. Lawyers gain notoriety purely from their ability to do their job well. Major lawyers are major lawyers 'cause they’ve won important cases somewhat consistently. If you can find me a person of sound mind or a corporation without a death wish that actually cares what car a lawyer drives, I would be amazed. Most likely, they are going to be 100% interested in “how good is this lawyer?” Does it take away from how great a basketball player Michael Jordan was/is if he drives an average car? Does it take away from the impact of the coming of the Messiah because he rode a small donkey instead of a noble steed or chariot?
Granted, there does exist a standard of respect and professionalism that is requested such as dressing more formal than casual in the courtroom or possibly driving a car that doesn’t backfire every 4 1/2 seconds but I really don’t buy that the suit HAS to be Armani or the car HAS to be a Mercedes. Big lawyers have those things because they can afford them and because it is a way of “showing off” one’s success more so than revealing one’s success. Success is revealed in actions, not in image. If a young man from the ghetto buys a gold necklace with all of his savings, does it make him any more successful or even seemingly successful? It doesn’t change the fact that he’s sitting on the street corner and it doesn’t change the fact that the lawyer is either winning or losing cases.
(What’s the deal with everyone else? They call me names then run away? Thanks for sticking around Penny!)
High level business lawyers can be on really shaky grounds as the ethics of high capitalism are more often than not, simply unethical. More so than driving a particular car, big corporations are looking for lawyers who know how to bend the rules and jump through hoops for the sake of making an extra $ even at the expense of employees of either one’s own company or a company being targetted for takeover or lawsuit or whatever. A good Catholic in this career field has quite the uphill battle. Kinda’ a tangent but just my quick insight.
With that said, Johnnie Cochran is still Johnnie Cochran regardless of the car he drives. Lawyers gain notoriety purely from their ability to do their job well. Major lawyers are major lawyers 'cause they’ve won important cases somewhat consistently. If you can find me a person of sound mind or a corporation without a death wish that actually cares what car a lawyer drives, I would be amazed. Most likely, they are going to be 100% interested in “how good is this lawyer?” Does it take away from how great a basketball player Michael Jordan was/is if he drives an average car? Does it take away from the impact of the coming of the Messiah because he rode a small donkey instead of a noble steed or chariot?
Granted, there does exist a standard of respect and professionalism that is requested such as dressing more formal than casual in the courtroom or possibly driving a car that doesn’t backfire every 4 1/2 seconds but I really don’t buy that the suit HAS to be Armani or the car HAS to be a Mercedes. Big lawyers have those things because they can afford them and because it is a way of “showing off” one’s success more so than revealing one’s success. Success is revealed in actions, not in image. If a young man from the ghetto buys a gold necklace with all of his savings, does it make him any more successful or even seemingly successful? It doesn’t change the fact that he’s sitting on the street corner and it doesn’t change the fact that the lawyer is either winning or losing cases.
(What’s the deal with everyone else? They call me names then run away? Thanks for sticking around Penny!)
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wjp984
Guest
First off, after reading this thread the pro death penalty people have won me over. I was struggling with this concept a little but now that I know that you can be a good Catholic and not be going against any church tecahing by supporting the death penalty, I can still support it. I am still in the midlde ground here kind of though and since I want to go into criminal law, I wouldn’t mind arguing either side should I ever have to do so.
However, the thing that just pissed me off was what happened in California recently. The guy get to stay alive a few months since they couldn’t find a doctor to adminster the execution which was argued as cruel and unusual punishment if there was not one there. That is total ****. They are killing the guy so what in the world do they need a doctor for? To make it less painful they say? Well it is my understanding that the condemned has the right to choose his execution and he should just pick the chair or friing squad or something if he is afraid of the most humane way to kill a guy. Now our state that is already in sever debt has to spend more money in wasted court fees just to kill some guy a few months later instead of now.
However, the thing that just pissed me off was what happened in California recently. The guy get to stay alive a few months since they couldn’t find a doctor to adminster the execution which was argued as cruel and unusual punishment if there was not one there. That is total ****. They are killing the guy so what in the world do they need a doctor for? To make it less painful they say? Well it is my understanding that the condemned has the right to choose his execution and he should just pick the chair or friing squad or something if he is afraid of the most humane way to kill a guy. Now our state that is already in sever debt has to spend more money in wasted court fees just to kill some guy a few months later instead of now.
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wjp984
Guest
It really depends on the kind of law you go into. I want to go into criminal law and am more in favor of becoming a DA than a defense attorney. District attorneys still need to have that nice expensive suit since it is part of the courtroom etiquite. However, they only make I think 75,000-150,000 a year so it is not expected to have the nicest car and such like the other attorneys might need to have for their jobs. Or at least the one that I rememer coming to career day back in high school said that if you see a DA with an expensive car, he is probably getting paid off for something meaning throwing a case. Oh, and my dad rarely gets an expensive car. He just does not think its worth it since then he has to be all paranoid about stuff happening to it all the time and kids messing it up. No one relaly cares what he drives as long as it is moderately nice.
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