The End of the Consumer Church in America

[CollegeCatholic]

wjp984:

First off, after reading this thread the pro death penalty people have won me over. I was struggling with this concept a little but now that I know that you can be a good Catholic and not be going against any church tecahing by supporting the death penalty, I can still support it. I am still in the midlde ground here kind of though and since I want to go into criminal law, I wouldn’t mind arguing either side should I ever have to do so.

However, the thing that just pissed me off was what happened in California recently. The guy get to stay alive a few months since they couldn’t find a doctor to adminster the execution which was argued as cruel and unusual punishment if there was not one there. That is total ****. They are killing the guy so what in the world do they need a doctor for? To make it less painful they say? Well it is my understanding that the condemned has the right to choose his execution and he should just pick the chair or friing squad or something if he is afraid of the most humane way to kill a guy. Now our state that is already in sever debt has to spend more money in wasted court fees just to kill some guy a few months later instead of now.

Does Jesus support the death penalty?

“He who is without sin may cast the first stone.”

Is Christ not one of the many victims of capital punishment?

In order to justify capital punishment, especially in the US, one has to look somewhere other than Jesus. Not because Jesus is not clear, only that if we turn to Jesus we get the answer that many of us don’t want.

“Where were you when I was in prison?” is what he asked. I bet he will also ask us “Where were you when I was on death row?”

 

[manualman]

Boy do I miss those college days when I knew everything and had all the specific answers and solutions.

Things were so much simpler compared to now. Now I only have MOST of the answers…

 

[CollegeCatholic]

manualman:

Boy do I miss those college days when I knew everything and had all the specific answers and solutions.

Things were so much simpler compared to now. Now I only have MOST of the answers…

I’m not sure how it could ever be simpler if we are held accountable for the knowledge that we are given. I would hope that the amount of knowledge that one recieves is ever expanding, and thus, an increase in convictions regarding the many facets of the world and our roles within it.

 

[geezerbob]

CollegeCatholic:

Does Jesus support the death penalty?

“He who is without sin may cast the first stone.”

Is Christ not one of the many victims of capital punishment?

In order to justify capital punishment, especially in the US, one has to look somewhere other than Jesus. Not because Jesus is not clear, only that if we turn to Jesus we get the answer that many of us don’t want.

“Where were you when I was in prison?” is what he asked. I bet he will also ask us “Where were you when I was on death row?”

Here, you have set yourself up as a more authorative interpreter of Scripture than the Church. Thanks, but I’ll stick with the interpretation contained in the catechism regarding the death penalty. And, before someone comes up with the argument that today’s prisons negate the necessity of ever using it, just read the papers and report back how many convicted killers have escaped in the past year, despite the best efforts of those operating the penal system, and how many bleeding-heart judges have released killers, not on the basis of evidence but on some legal technicality. After that, I’ll listen to your arguments.

 

[Brendan]

CollegeCatholic:

Does Jesus support the death penalty?

Have you read what Jesus said to the Israelites in Lev 24

Tell the Israelites: Anyone who curses his God shall
bear the penalty of his sin;

16 whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to
death. The whole community shall stone him; alien and native
alike must be put to death for blaspheming the LORD’S name.
17 "Whoever murders any human being shall be
put to death;
18 whoever takes the life of an animal shall make
restitution of another animal. A life for a life!
19 Anyone who inflicts an injury on his neighbor shall
receive the same in return.
20 Limb for limb, eye for eye, tooth for tooth! The same
injury that a man gives another shall be inflicted on him in
return.
21 Whoever slays an animal shall make restitution, but
whoever slays a man shall be put to death.

Jesus (God) ordered the Israelites to use Capital Punishment, so one would think He, in some way, is in favor of it’s just use.

And likewise, both the infallible Council of Trent, and our current Cathechism, allow for Captial Punishment in certain instances.

So, no Capitial Punishment is not in direct opposition to God’s Moral Law, and have been know to serve the cause of Justice, of which God, as Justice itself, approves.

 

[Brendan]

[Be modest in your luxuries. Instead of a BMW

Hmm, the PopeMobile is a Mercedes. Perhaps your might want to talk to His Holiness on the subject

buy a used Civic with good fuel efficiency and mid to low mileage

So who is supposed to turn new Civics into used Civics that we all can buy

Or perhaps Honda can just build only used Civics

. Be sensitive of one’s children’s need of some basic privacy but also don’t spend extra money on a house with such excessive room that you have a den, a dining room, and a living room all simultaneously as this is all excess space that must be furnished and heated/cooled and is seldomn used. Consider this extra space, including additional storage space, and convert this into additional bed rooms.]

Let me quess, you come from a small family. Only people with small families can concieve of a room in the house being “seldom used”.

All the spaces you mentioned are the spaces for family interaction, , the social glue that makes for a healthy family the bedrooms are for private time and sleeping. Stack the kids in there if you have to, but don’t mess with the common areas.
[/quote]

 

[fix]

CollegeCatholic:

I’m tired of seeing BMW’s and Cadillacs in the parking lots of Catholic Churches.* (*not to be taken literally)

To a small degree I will agree with the underlying premise and insinuation.

I’m tired of the Church being pushed around by the US Government. (Catholic Charities required to include birth control in their medical coverage)

From what I have read some times the “catholic” organization is equally guilty.

I’m tired of God’s “material blessings” being at the forefront of homilies and Social Justice being moved into the background.

It is the exact opposite. So-called social justice is well known while the rest of the Gospel message is left out or rejected.

How can we call ourselves good Catholics when our Faith is only expressed in works of CONVENIENT love?

Yes, like working in a soup kitchen a couple times a year while rejecting the teachings on contraception, fornication, abortion and many others.

Even the “modest livers” among us own such “essentials” as microwaves, carpeting, hot water heaters, cable tv, broadband internet, big screen tv’s, preprocessed/packaged foods, cd and dvd collections, cars with a value > $20,000, etc…

True, how can we put things in perspective if our leaders fail to teach the fullness of truth while only focusing on “social justice” alone. If we only know the faith as some form of liberal politics, ala Oprah-style, then what do you expect?

Who on the forums recognizes how consumed we are by materialism/consumerism? Who doesn’t agree? Who sees “devout” Catholics fighting social programs that help the poor? (not including birth control and abortion type initiatives)

That is the problem. Many times these programs are of little help and they are not the answer.

We are supposed to be a voice of truth and yet I see us “blaming the victim,” calling people lazy, and developing spending habits that are practically indiscernable from the rest of secular society.

We all need to reform ourselves.

I am VERY opposed to capital punishment (in the first-world context) and consider you to be in grave sin if you support it, regardless of who did what (yes, even terrorism.))

Then you contradict the faith you claim to believe in which is why I am so opposed to the social justice only theology as that is not the faith.

 

[mommythink]

(This is all a major generalization done by me, an economically liberal, ideal minded College student who has been studying Blessed Teresa and Liberation Theology for the last year. Mind you, I am a moderate in terms of Liberation Theology and also MAJORLY support pacifism but also recognize the RARE possibility for just war.

I have not yet read all of the replies (but I plan to), so forgive me for repeating anything that has been said. But with regard to “true Catholocism”, I think the Vatican has said “nuh-uh” to liberation theology. I think they are pretty true Catholics over there in the Vatican.

Have you ever looked at acton.org/?

I do agree with your repulsion of consumerism when there are so many in the world who are suffering. So do you seek to bring the wealthy down to the level of the poor? Wouldn’t it be more righteous to elevate the poor than to bring down the rich?

DG

 

[manualman]

There’s no need for US to debate all this. John Paul did a quite fine job demolihing Liberation Theology and exposed it as not much more than Marxism - atheism.

I would challenge the OP to consider whether he has not fallen into believing a false dilemma. The world need not choose between class power ideologies like Marxism and totally unrestrained capitalism. There are many ideas for middle ground.

I apologize for my snide earlier remark, but your posts remind me very much of the 60’s baby boomer rhetoric which they so fervently believed had never been considered carefully before! Perhaps the world is not so simple as you imagine. Perhaps excessive wealth is NOT the source of all suffering and evil in this world. Perhaps poverty cannot be eliminated through government give-aways (perhaps it often makes it WORSE). Perhaps instead of a class struggle, social justice ACTUALLY demands that we all work towards providing equal OPPORTUNITY to all, not equal outcome. Actually, unrestrained capitalism does a lousy job of that too, but the solution isn’t to berate the rich or to confiscate what they have. The solution is to find ways to provide additional opportunities for those who perceive none.

 

[mommythink]

manualman:

Actually, unrestrained capitalism does a lousy job of that too,

Whose job is it to restrain capitalism?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Although I haven’t read this thread in its entirety, some of the posters here seem to be preaching a liberal social gospel at the expense of justice. Wars and the death penalty are allowed by the Church (when justified) so get over it, sissies. Or have you forgotten the glorious Crusades and the holy Inquisitions? Lastly, you don’t make the poor rich by making the rich poor. Socialism and communism are evil and Jesus didn’t teach them.

 

[Jeanette_L]

manualman:

Boy do I miss those college days when I knew everything and had all the specific answers and solutions.

Things were so much simpler compared to now. Now I only have MOST of the answers…

This whole thread proves there is a difference between knowlege, zeal - and the wisdom to know what to do with them, the latter usually reserved for those who have the blessings of many hard lessoned years and the grace of humility that only the Holy Spirit can bestow.

Christ was not soft on truth, but he was meek and humble of spirit. This is what is lacking in CollegeKid, and he will more than likely be a little less offensive and a little softer in his manner without the compromise of his conscience once the years and the Holy Spirit have had their way. But at least he is not apathetic, and for that we can all be grateful, we need and are getting more Christian youth who want to positively, and with Christian ethics, make a difference in this Post/Christian world we find ourselves in.

God Bless,
Jeanette L

 

[mommythink]

College,

My parents just built a vacation home in the mountains. They clearly don’t “need” it and by the parameters you have laid down in this thread their second home constitutes an excess.

My husband, myself and my three children visited their new cabin over Christmas. My husband works very hard and I stay home with our three children. We have one car and do not have very many luxuries. (Though I do constantly remind my children that we have MUCH more than many of those in third world countries). But still, by American standards, we are certainly not wealthy. We would not be able to afford a vacation without my parent’s (relative) wealth. It was a vacation that was good for my family. It was a good respite for my hard working husband. It was a chance for my boys to spend quality time with their grandparents. It was a nice break for me as well. I hope that it is not your position that my family did not “deserve” that positive family experience that my parents’ wealth afforded us.

While we were at the cabin, there was still some work being finished up. Two carpet layers showed up one afternoon. I will never forget one of them. He was the sweetest young man and we came to find out that he was the single father of a three year old boy. His wife left the man with his son never to be heard from again. My parents’ excessive vacation home was providing that young father with the means to provide for his little boy! The other (much wealthier) cabin owners were also putting this man to work.

What I don’t understand about your position is…where do you think the means to provide for the poor will come from??? Please give me an example of any government, either past or present, that has been able to generate wealth.

DG

 

[JSmitty2005]

Jeanette L:

Christ was not soft on truth, but he was meek and humble of spirit.

He certainly was not. Here’s a good article that just came out on that very subject:

sentinel.org/articles/2006-7/14481.html

 

[CollegeCatholic]

geezerbob:

Here, you have set yourself up as a more authorative interpreter of Scripture than the Church. Thanks, but I’ll stick with the interpretation contained in the catechism regarding the death penalty. And, before someone comes up with the argument that today’s prisons negate the necessity of ever using it, just read the papers and report back how many convicted killers have escaped in the past year, despite the best efforts of those operating the penal system, and how many bleeding-heart judges have released killers, not on the basis of evidence but on some legal technicality. After that, I’ll listen to your arguments.

For one thing, my view is actually in line with the Catechism in that I concede that there are rare occasions in which capital punishment is a necessary action taken in defense of the lives of the members of a society. I also expand on the line and I quote:

CCC 2267 Lines 2-3

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Regarding your second point, the escape of perhaps .000001% of the violent criminals incarcerated somehow justifies killing them to avoid this? Hitler was escaped abortion, perhaps we should have done a better job killing babies?

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Brendan:

Have you read what Jesus said to the Israelites in Lev 24

Tell the Israelites: Anyone who curses his God shall
bear the penalty of his sin;

Jesus (God) ordered the Israelites to use Capital Punishment, so one would think He, in some way, is in favor of it’s just use.

And likewise, both the infallible Council of Trent, and our current Cathechism, allow for Captial Punishment in certain instances.

So, no Capitial Punishment is not in direct opposition to God’s Moral Law, and have been know to serve the cause of Justice, of which God, as Justice itself, approves.

Maybe you missed my point that one must look to the old covenant for justification of the death penalty? Justification for the death penalty is not found in the NT or by Jesus. How convenient that you cite Leviticus to justify the death penalty but not to justify me cutting off a dude’s hand for striking his father or me destroying infadels and what not… ??? Maybe because we are no longer bound by the OT law because Christ has fullfilled the law and revealed to us the higher Truth of God with such things as “turn the other cheek,” “love your enemy as yourself,” “he who is without sin may cast the first stone,” and eating with sinners rather than killing them.

Remember that Jesus did not yet exist in the OT. The Son of God, made flesh to reveal the Truth, establish the Church, die, raise, and assume into heaven for the atonement of sin with glorified body; that is Jesus.

With that said, you’re arguing with a straw man. For the entirety of this thread I have maintained that there are indeed justified, but extremely rare, cases of recourse to killing a detained individual due to a lack of proper confinement facilities. With that said, you are treating the issue black and white. Capital punishment is not justified probably 99.9% of the time and thus, those 99.9% of killings must be condemned. In the United States, due to the extremely advanced nature of our confinement facilities, based purely on the standards set forth by the Catechism, 0% of the killings of people through the use of “Capital Punishment” in the US is justified.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Brendan:

Hmm, the PopeMobile is a Mercedes. Perhaps your might want to talk to His Holiness on the subject

It’s also a custom designed car to protect his life. With that said, the papacy has been the center of many financial abuses and many corrupt Popes have flaunted it. With that said, our recent Popes have been men of great holiness and I have profound respect for them and I am not questioning them as such. I am very glad that I can not only respect their office but respect their personage.

So who is supposed to turn new Civics into used Civics that we all can buy

Or perhaps Honda can just build only used Civics

Considering the whole narrow path statement and the eye of the needle statement I would assume plenty of people. My general guidance was of course not to be taken with absolute literalism. I am just pointing out the fact that a car drops drastically in price one it has a few miles on it. Your sarcasm does little to take away from my logic so much as belittle your own.

Let me quess, you come from a small family. Only people with small families can concieve of a room in the house being “seldom used”.

All the spaces you mentioned are the spaces for family interaction, , the social glue that makes for a healthy family the bedrooms are for private time and sleeping. Stack the kids in there if you have to, but don’t mess with the common areas.

I do come from a small family of six (my girlfriend’s family has 9) but my comment was not to say that all common living spaces should be done away with so much as we have so much extra space that we are paying to heat, furnish, and originally buy that it can be a very big waste. Do we need a living room, a dining room, a den, and a ton of storage space? Maybe one or at most two common living spaces is really all that is necessary… The only reason we would need a ton of storage space is that we are such big consumers that we don’t have room to put all of our stuff in normal living areas. Consumerism and packratitis are two things that don’t work very well together. Massive garages fitting multiple vehicles can also apply to my earlier statements.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

fix:

From what I have read some times the “catholic” organization is equally guilty.

Most likely, at times, unfortunately.

It is the exact opposite. So-called social justice is well known while the rest of the Gospel message is left out or rejected.

I must live in a microcosm then… topics of social justice, in all of the parishes that I have attended all of the US, have been very rare. A little bit more common are nice sentimental messages of giving $5 for a charitable organization but messages getting at the heart of poverty, materialism, consumerism, and such are VERY rare. While the USCCB has some cool stuff to say, I seldomn see this trickle down to the individual parishes, the heart of the Church in the US.

Yes, like working in a soup kitchen a couple times a year while rejecting the teachings on contraception, fornication, abortion and many others.

You just summarized the average Catholic, was this an attack on my argument? I guess I’m a little confused although the context may have been lost since I’ve been gone a few days… With that said, how many of the Saints took a vow of poverty? A whole stinkin’ lot…

True, how can we put things in perspective if our leaders fail to teach the fullness of truth while only focusing on “social justice” alone. If we only know the faith as some form of liberal politics, ala Oprah-style, then what do you expect?

If social justice was the lone message, a whole lot of people would have left the Church because the leadership would have been holding accountable the average Catholic in the US because of our terrible hording of goods at the expense of our own poor and the poor of the world. I am not calling for a removal of the total message, I want the true total message taught and people held accountable to that. Loving the neighbor as oneself goes WAY beyond nice feelings and includes not just concern for salvation but concern for the WHOLE person including their material needs. Our attempt to justify the way things are and have been is an attempt to seperate the person and act like our concern must be holiness and ignore the fact that the impoverished of the world are more often than not the most spiritually rich people in the world. Note the state of the Church in Europe and the US versus the second and third world…

That is the problem. Many times these programs are of little help and they are not the answer.

It is our responsibility as faithful citizens to guide legislation that is an ethical and responsible answer to the real problems of social injustice.

We all need to reform ourselves.

“Ourselves” is the key word because we must be transformed as American Catholics, as a community, to realize our shortcomings and really take Jesus’ radical call to charity seriously. I agree with your statement.

Then you contradict the faith you claim to believe in which is why I am so opposed to the social justice only theology as that is not the faith.

So social injustice IS the Faith? I’m confused how my beliefs are in contradiction with the Fatih?

 

[CollegeCatholic]

mommythink:

I have not yet read all of the replies (but I plan to), so forgive me for repeating anything that has been said. But with regard to “true Catholocism”, I think the Vatican has said “nuh-uh” to liberation theology. I think they are pretty true Catholics over there in the Vatican.

Have you ever looked at acton.org/?

I do agree with your repulsion of consumerism when there are so many in the world who are suffering. So do you seek to bring the wealthy down to the level of the poor? Wouldn’t it be more righteous to elevate the poor than to bring down the rich?

DG

Yes I have already addressed this. We in the Western World are quick to discredit the theologies of liberation because they attack our lifestyles in a very fundamental way but the Vatican has actually supported some of the basic ideas of the Theologies of Liberation. The Vatican actually agrees with the notion of the preferential option for the poor and the young although, rather conveniently, some theologians ignore the preference for the young. Problems that arise in the formulation of these theologies and spiritualities have been overuse, or use at all, of poor social analysis tools such as atheistic Marxism, unjust call to arms and general violence, clergy too involved in politics as to take away from their primary vocation, the list goes on. With that said, many liberation theologians and proponents are perfectly orthodox and line with the Church. Martyr Archbishop Oscar Romero is a great example of a member of the faithful who attempted to stand for social justice in a non-violent manner and without attempting to undermine the Church or undermine his most important role as spiritual leader to the faithful of his region. He was shot not while lifting a gun in the air but while elevating the consecrated Eucharist during the Mass.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

manualman:

There’s no need for US to debate all this. John Paul did a quite fine job demolihing Liberation Theology and exposed it as not much more than Marxism - atheism.

Already assessed.

I would challenge the OP to consider whether he has not fallen into believing a false dilemma. The world need not choose between class power ideologies like Marxism and totally unrestrained capitalism. There are many ideas for middle ground.

Straw man. Although I would tend to believe in a more radical charity than most Americans are comfortable with, I’m not playing black and white.

I apologize for my snide earlier remark, but your posts remind me very much of the 60’s baby boomer rhetoric which they so fervently believed had never been considered carefully before! Perhaps the world is not so simple as you imagine. Perhaps excessive wealth is NOT the source of all suffering and evil in this world. Perhaps poverty cannot be eliminated through government give-aways (perhaps it often makes it WORSE). Perhaps instead of a class struggle, social justice ACTUALLY demands that we all work towards providing equal OPPORTUNITY to all, not equal outcome. Actually, unrestrained capitalism does a lousy job of that too, but the solution isn’t to berate the rich or to confiscate what they have. The solution is to find ways to provide additional opportunities for those who perceive none.

Thank you, I accept your apology.

“Equal Opportunity” is nonexistent. Inherrently, we are born into situations and families that we did not choose, born with mental or physcial disabilities, abusive situations, irresponsible teachers and guardians, general human sin. I’m not saying it’s simple, I’m saying that it’s serious and we have done a very poor job of handling our power in both its monetary and political forms in doing anything about it. Distribution of wealth is a huge problem but it goes much deeper and wider than that. I will be the first to tell you that the corruption of the balance of power and wealth is rooted in both individual and institutionalized sin, and thus, we need to reexamine ourselves because we participate in much of the institutions that continue to oppress, marginalize, blame the victim, suport the “haves” and feed off the “have nots.”