C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
Ours. In the US we have a whole lot of power for change, what are we doing with it?
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C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
The Culture of Life is indeed, sissy, by common cultural values.Although I haven’t read this thread in its entirety, some of the posters here seem to be preaching a liberal social gospel at the expense of justice. Wars and the death penalty are allowed by the Church (when justified) so get over it, sissies. Or have you forgotten the glorious Crusades and the holy Inquisitions? Lastly, you don’t make the poor rich by making the rich poor. Socialism and communism are evil and Jesus didn’t teach them.
“What kind of sissy turns the other cheek and brings a message of love, peace, and justice?!”
Let’s not be so quick to label the Crusades as being “glorious.” What exactly did they accomplish? We lost Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, the Holy Land, and a whole lot of innocent lives… hmmm…
You’re right about your rich/poor comment, you make the rich “rich” by convicting them of the needs of the poor so that everyone has their basic needs met. Once that happens, where the remaining wealth should go is an interesting debate but one that I am not involved in. If we make Bill Gates “poor” by convicting him of the needs of the poor and have him give away $45,000,000,000 he would still have around $3,000,000,000 left. Poor guy.
Many of our social programs in this country are socialistic and much of Jesus’ message is actually very socialistic… He definately wasn’t preaching capitalism so what exactly is your argument?
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
Jeanette L:
Therese of Liseaux is a fine example of wisdom beyond years. Remind me at what age she died?
For one thing, my name is CollegeCatholic here on the forums and not CollegeKid as your insinuation that my views are liken to a “kid” or “child.” Secondly, as we are called to a child-like faith, perhaps I should actually take this as a compliment. Finally, you seem to have a nice time ignoring the scene in the Temple where Jesus “meek and humble” starts destroying the market place or Jesus’ nice interaction with the Pharisees with such comments as “brood of serpents.” Maybe I should pick it up a little so as to better fullfill my call to be Christ to the world. My terribly offensive posts sure seem to be hitting hard for being simply the ramblings of a child with no respect for his elders.
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
Yep.
Don’t live by American standards. And I’m glad you all had a nice time. My mom owns a very nice house and I go and visit her. Does she need the house? Nope. Do my views on Christian economics change that fact? Nope.
Why is he working in the houses and not living in them? This same reasoning gives Nike and Walmart their justification for the exploitation of workers for extremely imbalanced profit distribution within the respective companies. I’m glad he is somehow able to manage, even in light of all the factors working against him.
Let’s see here, the GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the USA is $12,370,000,000,000 and we have 290,000,000 people here so that comes out to be about $43,000 per year, per person so that’s about $301,000 for a nice Catholic family of seven… The per year, per person estimate of East Timor (90% Catholic ) is $400 dollars so a nice Catholic family of seven would be $2,800 so the average American individual has spending power about 107 1/2 times that of an East Timorian individual. Now if we all count to 107 on our fingers and toes, realizing that an income is being doubled for every single finger and toe, mabye we can get an idea of the distribution of wealth in the world.
Does that answer your question?
cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ ← Source
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
Interesting.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
The Culture of Life is indeed, sissy, by common cultural values. The Culture of Life as the Catholic Church understands it does not exclude the use of the Death Penalty or War.
“What kind of sissy turns the other cheek and brings a message of love, peace, and justice?!”
Again, sometimes War and the Death Penalty are signs of love, they definitely bring about justice, and they can restore peace.
Let’s not be so quick to label the Crusades as being “glorious.” What exactly did they accomplish? We lost Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, the Holy Land, and a whole lot of innocent lives… hmmm…
Whether they succeeded or failed, they were noble nonetheless. There is not a more chivalrous thing one can do than defend his Christian brother from the oppression of heathens.
You’re right about your rich/poor comment, you make the rich “rich” by convicting them of the needs of the poor so that everyone has their basic needs met. Once that happens, where the remaining wealth should go is an interesting debate but one that I am not involved in. If we make Bill Gates “poor” by convicting him of the needs of the poor and have him give away $45,000,000,000 he would still have around $3,000,000,000 left. Poor guy.
Many of our social programs in this country are socialistic and much of Jesus’ message is actually very socialistic… He definately wasn’t preaching capitalism so what exactly is your argument? The Church has always condemned socialism and Communism…as well as capitalism when it is in its purest form. However, social programs like welfare and the like are not based on Christian principles. They are examples of the Government stealing our hard-earned money for inefficient programs that just give people more money to buy drugs with. So, where’s the Christian charity? There is none. It is the responsibility of individual Christians to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc. NOT the Feds. Mother Teresa did much more than the Indian govn’t ever could. Plus, in Thessalonians somewhere it says that if you do not work, you should not eat.
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
A fellow college student I see. You are the type of mind I hope to one day “poison” on our college campuses.
Wow, this is the kind of stuff that I enjoy hearing because it is at the heart of what I’m talking about.
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The fundamental moslems in the “Other Religions” section of the sight could possibly fall head over heals in love with you. Watch out because you are a perfect candidate for conversion.
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**Considering the fact that we put the “Feds” in office, we vote on the laws, we install the president who in tern assigns Supreme Court Justices… Also, the law is necessary for countering injustice because people are going to be sinful. Many of them lack proper guidance are their hearts are too hardened to be open to the Truth of the Gospel and as such, it is necessary to regulate through authority things such as economics. I can’t do anything about a guy that has slaves because I am nonviolent and don’t have authority to jail this person and free the slaves but the “Feds” sure can.
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It’s interesting that the poor of the world work more jobs for more hours and for the least money… Also, what do you do about mentally and physically handicapped people, injured people, uneducated people, abused people, etc… ?? Why was Mother Teresa feeding nonworking individuals?
I can’t believe that I’m the only one that doesn’t see through the distorted nature of these arguments and how out of line they are with the Gospel message…
Wow, this is the kind of stuff that I enjoy hearing because it is at the heart of what I’m talking about.
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**In extremely rare situations… the vast majority of the time they are unjust. What are you to say about that vast majority of injustice when it comes to War and Capital Punishment?
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The fundamental moslems in the “Other Religions” section of the sight could possibly fall head over heals in love with you. Watch out because you are a perfect candidate for conversion.
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hard-earned money for inefficient programs that just give people more money to buy drugs with. So, where’s the Christian charity? There is none. It is the responsibility of individual Christians to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc. NOT the Feds.
**Considering the fact that we put the “Feds” in office, we vote on the laws, we install the president who in tern assigns Supreme Court Justices… Also, the law is necessary for countering injustice because people are going to be sinful. Many of them lack proper guidance are their hearts are too hardened to be open to the Truth of the Gospel and as such, it is necessary to regulate through authority things such as economics. I can’t do anything about a guy that has slaves because I am nonviolent and don’t have authority to jail this person and free the slaves but the “Feds” sure can.
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It’s interesting that the poor of the world work more jobs for more hours and for the least money… Also, what do you do about mentally and physically handicapped people, injured people, uneducated people, abused people, etc… ?? Why was Mother Teresa feeding nonworking individuals?
I can’t believe that I’m the only one that doesn’t see through the distorted nature of these arguments and how out of line they are with the Gospel message…
M
mommythink
Guest
Are you serious? Don’t you think you are being a bit hypocritical? YOU live by American standards! What gives you the moral right to be using the computer and the internet that is the fruit of our evil capitalistic society?
Did you ever look at the website I asked you to look at, www.acton.org? I’d say that website represents “christian economics” better than what you’re trying to sell. Have you ever read The Road to Serfdom by Hayek?
OK, sorry, but I have to insert another ARE YOU SERIOUS??? First of all, are you truly insinuating that my parents are exploiting this young man by paying him to lay their carpet? Would he be less exploited if he wasn’t working and was on welfare? What about the dignity of work? That is a very Catholic concept. As to why he isn’t living in one of the houses… perhaps he will one day after thirty years of hard work. If it is demeaning to work on the houses and dignity is only found by everyone being able to live in the same kind of house, then how will any of the houses get built?
Uh, no. I asked you to give me an example, either current or historic, of a government generating wealth. The PEOPLE of the United States generated our wealth, not our government. Most third world countries could generate wealth governments would stop meddling with crippling policies and if corrupt governments were thrown out of power.
Again, I ask you… Why do we have to work to bring down the rich? Why can’t we seek to elevate the poor?
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Oh, no, he’s admitted he’s a flaming liberal! Have fun trying to infect me with your disease, but it’s not happening.A fellow college student I see. You are the type of mind I hope to one day “poison” on our college campuses.
:bounce:
There will be injustice in all aspects of society, but that doesn’t mean that we should abolish it altogether. The judicial system is not always just, but that doesn’t mean that we should just eliminate it. Likewise with war and the DP.
I’m not interested in becoming a pagan. Also, note that I said “defend” and not “terrorize.” Remarkably, I got such an idea from the Roman Pontiff. “How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? …Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?”
-Pope Innocent III to the Crusaders
:whacky: You say that “many of them [politicians] lack proper guidance and their hearts are too hardened to the Truth of the Gospel” but yet you want them to be the ones to “regulate through authority things such as economics”?! :whacky: The less power the govn’t has, the better. The Church teaches that what can be done at the lowest level should be done at the lowest level. Individuals and familes come before the state and federal governments when it comes to society’s welfare.
I highly doubt the first thing you said, although if it’s true, I can do nothing but agree with you that there’s nothing just about that. I’d like to see statistics and a reliable source to back it up though. As for the handicapped or incompetent, of course they’re the exceptions. They are, in your words, “extremely rare situations.” Of course we need to take care of the people that can’t take care of themselves. And as for Mother Teresa, the people she cared for may not have even been able to work. However, in a country like America, no one has that excuse. She took care of them out of love for Christ despite the fact that they didn’t necessarily deserve it.
Actually, I was thinking the same about the things you’ve had to say. Maybe you’re not following THE Gospel, but rather YOURS. But I’m sure you’d say the same about me.
M
mommythink
Guest
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
When using common, contemporary labels and when referring to my views on economics, “flaming liberal” might not be too far off the mark. Almost every other area of myself would be considered “close-minded” so I don’t really have friends in either camp. For some reason, I don’t get along with hardline Democrats or Republicans and I’m glad. Personally, I vote Catholic. As far as the disease goes, radical Christian charity doesn’t seem to be very contagious so don’t worry too much.Oh, no, he’s admitted he’s a flaming liberal! Have fun trying to infect me with your disease, but it’s not happening.
Society should be moulded to end injustice, not perpetuate it. This should be spearheaded by the followers of Christ, especially those who have been given the wholeness of Truth. (Catholics)
Many of the people killed by the Crusaders were Christians who spoke a different language. Way to go, guys.
Actually, I said “many of them [people] lack proper guidance and their hearts are too hardened to the Truth of the Gospel” so although it makes a compelling argument trying to defend statements I never made, it’s a little silly. We vote in candidates who have proven that they will genuinely stand for life from conception to natural death, yes this includes all the people between those stages as well.
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
“More than two-thirds of all poor families with children included one or more individuals who worked in 2003. What’s more, family members in working-poor families with children typically worked combined totals of 46 weeks per year.”
“A single parent of two young children working full-time in a minimum wage job for a year would make $10,712 before taxes - a wage $4,355 below the poverty threshold set by the federal government. (U.S. Department of Labor; U.S. Census Bureau.)”
US Conference of Catholic Bishops: usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact3.shtml
You probably won’t believe them or their sources as our Bishop’s Conference is very liberal in their economics so sorry…
The remaining third most likely has a massive proportion of physical and mental disabilities, sickness, age, and more…
- Thirty-nine percent report [homeless people] some form of mental health problem, and 20 to 25 percent meet criteria for serious mental illnesses.
mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/publications/allpubs/homelessness/default.asp#mentalhealth
I could go on all day with sources of this sort of info if you would like… not that you would take them seriously.
Luke 4: 18-19Actually, I was thinking the same about the things you’ve had to say. Maybe you’re not following THE Gospel, but rather YOURS. But I’m sure you’d say the same about me.
The spirit of the Lord has been given to me,
for he has anointed me.
He has sent me to bring the good news to the poor,
to proclaim liberty to captives
and to the blind new sight,
to set the downtrodden free,
to proclaim the Lord’s year of favour.
Matthew 25: 35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you made me welcome; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me; in prison and you came to see me.
. . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me.
Mark 12: 30-31
This is the first [commandment]…you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You must love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.
Take it or leave it. The Gospel speaks for itself. The Matthew verse is quite a thing to say in light of the way we live in the US, comforting ourselves and maybe saying a happy thought or giving a buck or two to some random charity.
H
Hildebrand
Guest
CollegeCatholic,
Read over these links, they are on Distributism.
distributism.com/
theuniversityconcourse.com/V,5,1-28-2000/Storck.htm
justpeace.org/distribute.htm
distributism.org/
Neither socialism, nor capitalism is the answer.
Read over these links, they are on Distributism.
distributism.com/
theuniversityconcourse.com/V,5,1-28-2000/Storck.htm
justpeace.org/distribute.htm
distributism.org/
Neither socialism, nor capitalism is the answer.
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
[sarcasm]Sorry for getting online, I’ll be sure to drive over next time. [/sarcasm]
Acton.org is in opposition to our spiritual leaders in the Conference of Catholic Bishops and yet they are supposed to be the economic voice of reason? Have you read what they think about USCCB policy on poverty? Now I’m being told to not look to the Bishopric but look to some conservative economists with no real answer? No, I’ve never read The Road to Serfdom by Hayek.
This young man was acting as my poster child. I can’t actually speak to his or your parents particular situations. I was mainly focusing on your reasoning that this extra house was providing work for him.
“My extra mansion is providing work for my hispanic gardeners so obviously I am justified. I am even paying them minimum wage unlike what they would get picking tomatoes!”
Tax money isn’t generating wealth?? International trade and multinational loans aren’t generating wealth?? Interesting… How does a country with extremely limited natural resources or skilled labor generate wealth?
Maybe I’m not speaking at the educational level that I assumed you were at but you obviously have very little understanding of economics. If you don’t “bring down the rich” in order to “elevate the poor” you get a phenomenon known as inflation where the poor are still poor, even though they have more money. If it was as easy as creating artificial capital then poverty would be much simpler. One of the key factors in solving poverty is distribution of wealth. This idea recognizes the finite pool of wealth that is available and makes apparent that most of the world’s wealth is concentrated in a certain small percentage of the population. There are 8.2 million U.S. households with a net worth of more than $1 million and yet 1 for every 7 Americans is below the poverty line.
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
I’ll have to look those over, thanks.
EDIT: Upon quick glance, this looks good! Hopefully I will still feel that way when reading it further.
(Is your name in reference to the tragic character of old German lore?)
C
CollegeCatholic
Guest
My Tansliteration:
“Governments empowering/helping people is a bad thing. We need to give small groups a chance to help because they can always do it better…”
(I gave it a quick read so excuse me if I’m not understanding the gist.)
Interesting… What small groups have the means to give families without medical insurance the means for their children to go to the hospital? I see all sorts of small groups working but there isn’t mass support for these groups. In other words, the way things are is just right?
I
InnocentIII
Guest
CollegeCatholic said:
I think it is a reference to Pope St Gregory VII whose name was Hildebrand.
I
InnocentIII
Guest
Actually if you got off your high horse at looked at the real world you would see that Government is a very bad provider of services and that the poor are often those who suffer most. Small groups can go among the poor and provide medical care. Medecin Sans Frontieres provides more medical aid to Africans than all the intergovernmental programs put together. Also you seem to have bought the myth that there is a finite amount of wealth in the world so if I have more you must have less. What makes capitalism different from socialism is that it recognises that wealth can grow. In other words the sum total of the wealth in the world in 2000 was greater than the sum total of wealth in the world in 1900. The “poor” in western countries are better off than some of the “not poor” in third world countries. here in Australia every adult is guaranteed a minimum of $12,000 per annum in direct grants and up to $10,000 in indirect grants (subsidised health care etc). That would be considered well off in most Third World countries. Australia can afford it because we are wealthy as a country because we have exploited our resources both natural and human. Africa has received trillions of dollars in direct and indirect aid from both Governments and NGO’s yet it is poorer than it was at independance. If the solution was just providing the means then Africa should be sitting pretty today. Instead it is going backwards with all economic and socila indicators showing a steadt decline over the last 50 years. So I suggest you do a little research before mouthing slogans and accusing others of not doing enough. BTW who is paying for your college degree? And do you consider it a luxury or a necessity? After all, the cost of your degree would probably give pay for a school and primary education for an entire village. Whose need is greater?
M
mommythink
Guest
Um, no, they’re not “conservative”, they are libertarian.
Well, you really ought to. Do you know who Freidrich Hayek is? He was a nobel prize winning economist. You are certainly free to your opinions on economics, but if you want to be able to persuasively defend them, you should should read plenty of material from the opposite viewpoint. You need to always leave the door at least slightly open to the fact that you could be wrong. That is called humility.
You are not only insulting, you are wrong. I have a degree in economics. Haven’t you learned the difference between wealth and money, yet? Taxation is taking a portion of the wealth that has already been generated. Taxation isn’t the creation of wealth. That is pretty elementary economics.
I think I am going to leave this discussion, now. It’s really ashame that you can’t be a tiny bit more open minded to what those who are a little older and wiser have to say. You don’t have to agree, but it would be wise to at least consider.
The funny thing is, I agree with some of your observations about consumerism. I just think people need a change of heart. You can’t force virtue on people, they have to choose it. A free society allows people to chose virtue. I also largely agree with you about the death penalty. I don’t see any need for it in our country.
Good luck to you in your studies.
S
scoobydoo6v92
Guest
I feel that it is so easy to sit in a college and spark off thoughts and make them be law. but you are not old enough to have a real opinion when it comes to life. you haven’t lived long enough. In college people tend to be liberal and then when life smacks you in the face a few times then you aren’t as liberal as you are now. Unless Mommy and Daddy has tons of money to give you for college and whatever else you may want or need. If you feel you want to do all this give up your college for a poor black person in the ghetto then I will respect you go to Calcutta and do what Mother Teresa did. go to China and bring the truth to them and get killed. I am sick and tired of liberals who sound off and yet don’t have the balls to do something that means something my self included to your faith. How about spending a few nights in jail for protesting the biggest geniside in history the unborn!!! what about that!!! I DARE YOU!!! as I DARE MYSELF!!! How about speaking up about injustices in the school system when it comes to prayer look at Judge Moore (I think) He gave up a great job for his beleifs!!! What about the monks who give up everything to pray for us and do penance. I am sorry but college kids with lofty ideas ANGER ME and just let life kick you in the backside a few times see how liberal you will be then work at Mcdonalds and see how great it is… Try goign Bankrupt. OK I don’t have the courage to go to Calcutta or to be a monk or a Priest. I don’t have the courage to go to Iraq or be a Marine and defend our country. Don’t like being called American then GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS COUNTRY!!! How dare you condemn this country!!! May God show you LIFE as it REALLY IS!!! It is real hard and it can be hell and to sit there in your dorm and be sick of the way the church is!! BECOME A MONK AND DO SOMEHTING ABOUT IT THEN!!! instead of sounding off. Tom
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