The Essentials of CARM

[Atemi]

That’s because CARM is offensive, and degrading.

As a Catholic, that is exactly my point.

Would anything that challenges the RCC and means it be anything less than “offensive” to a Catholic.

No.

However much worse has been used here than just hocus pocus. You’ll note it hasn’t been censored. Not true on CARM. If it is posted by a non catholic, it is accepted. If it is posted by a catholic, be prepared to be censored, deleted, banned, etc.

Wrong.

Don’t break the rules and no problems.

There are Catholic posters there that have been posting there for many years, and I know a number of Protestants that have been suspended for their behavior.

And I wasn’t trying to be offensive when I said that about worshipping the bible, but to open your eyes.

LOL.

Sure.

You weren’t trying. I guess that determines what is uncharitable and what is not.

Tell a Catholic that they worship Mary and they freak out and scream “Anti-Catholic!!”…

Yet tell a non-Catholic that they worship the Bible and you are only trying to “open their eyes.”

LOL.

This is totally my point.

Man, oh man…

…

 

[Atemi]

Let’s not forget that your version of “charity” is far from the version you theoretically espouse.

As of late I have been called the epithet of “anti-Catholic” that “worships the Bible” and I “do not worship the real Jesus.”

Ya see?

That is just in recent memory here.

And what does the RC apologist usually say when challenged about how plainly uncharitable and unChristian such posts are?

“If the shoe fits…”

or,

“I know the truth hurts…”

LOL.

Your lectures about “charity” ring hollow to me, Michael, because you are blind to the very same under your nose and nod in approval…as long as the poster is a Catholic.

To point a finger at the posters at CARM, and not recognize the very thing you condemn here, is not convincing.

…

 

[Nicene]

As of late I have been called the epithet of “anti-Catholic” that “worships the Bible” and I “do not worship the real Jesus.”

Ya see?

That is just in recent memory here.

I get that every day. Along with whore of babylon, pagan, and numerous other lovelies. So your point is?

The other difference is this. Theological debates. no problem. Attack Jesus (like in the Eucharist) Mary, the saints? You attack my family.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

This brings up an interesting perception. For a catholic, when you go after and attack the eucharist, you are attacking Christ. Not a concept, a reality. There he is. Being mocked, just as others did during the passion.

From the protestant point of view this isn’t really a big deal because it is just a piece of bread and wine.

Think about that.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Church_Militant]

And what does the RC apologist usually say when challenged about how plainly uncharitable and unChristian such posts are?

“If the shoe fits…”

or,

“I know the truth hurts…”

LOL.

Your lectures about “charity” ring hollow to me, Michael, because you are blind to the very same under your nose and nod in approval…as long as the poster is a Catholic.

To point a finger at the posters at CARM, and not recognize the very thing you condemn here, is not convincing.

…I don’t care…it’s not my responsibility. I am responsible for my own posts and I post where I please.

I’ve heard that same crack from a-Cs, but regardless of source it’s still just a rationalism for being a jerk in the name of one’s religion.

If you don’t like my posts to you and you see that they are in violation of a forum rule here, then feel free to report me, but I’ll wager that you’ll have a tough time finding the level of rudeness and rhetorical propaganda that I was subjected to on CARM and my Catholic brothers and sisters endure there even now.

IMO, it’s a garbage board and I won’t post there. (It’s not the only one that I won’t support…but if they are like that, I won’t go there.) Obviously, if anyone there wants to hear the Catholic side of any issue, they…just like you, know where to find us.

I don’t whine and cry about it all. I’m thick skinned enough to take a hit and walk off, but I don’t have to bother with them any more and I have plenty of forums where my time is not wasted.

I just try real hard not to stoop to the level of some of those I have dealt with.

I don’t have to convince anyone to convert.
That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

It’s really very simple guys.
[SIGN]BOYCOTT CARM![/SIGN]Let 'em talk to themselves.

 

[Good_Fella]

I wonder if it is a bizarre coincidence that the acronym CARM denotes
the full spectrum of temptation which led to the Fall: Curiosity Arousal
Regression Mortification.

 

[Church_Militant]

I wonder if it is a bizarre coincidence that the acronym CARM denotes
the full spectrum of temptation which led to the Fall: Curiosity Arousal
Regression Mortification.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Oy.

I said nothing in my post that was mocking, or could even be construed as such.

Not in that one post.

I said:

“I have found that “common courtesy” is relative to the ideology of the person being addressed.”

Yes, you did.

To which you replied:

“If you’re respectful, so am I. If not, the gloves come off.”

Yes, I did.

The “you’re” above I did not take personally, but generally.

Wow. How could I be so misunderstood?

You basically said you are only respectful when others are respectful. Disciples of Christ usually don’t adopt that attitude if possible.

To which I replied that I resist evil and oppose error.

I think we’re both pretty clear on the exchange.

Now, remember…you said I am repaying evil with evil…so there has to be evil in place first for me to repay.

Do ya kinda see where I’m leadin’ with this, Atemi?

This is very significant.

LOL.

I sure hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

As a Catholic, that is exactly my point.

Would anything that challenges the RCC and means it be anything less than “offensive” to a Catholic.

No.

Wrong.

Don’t break the rules and no problems.

There are Catholic posters there that have been posting there for many years, and I know a number of Protestants that have been suspended for their behavior.

LOL.

Sure.

You weren’t trying. I guess that determines what is uncharitable and what is not.

Tell a Catholic that they worship Mary and they freak out and scream “Anti-Catholic!!”…

Yet tell a non-Catholic that they worship the Bible and you are only trying to “open their eyes.”

LOL.

This is totally my point.

Man, oh man…

…

[SIGN]Atemi’s LOL Count: 2[/SIGN]

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let’s not forget that your version of “charity” is far from the version you theoretically espouse.

As of late I have been called the epithet of “anti-Catholic” that “worships the Bible” and I “do not worship the real Jesus.”

Ya see?

That is just in recent memory here.

And what does the RC apologist usually say when challenged about how plainly uncharitable and unChristian such posts are?

“If the shoe fits…”
or,

“I know the truth hurts…”
LOL.

Your lectures about “charity” ring hollow to me, Michael, because you are blind to the very same under your nose and nod in approval…as long as the poster is a Catholic.

To point a finger at the posters at CARM, and not recognize the very thing you condemn here, is not convincing.

…

[SIGN]Atemi’s LOL Count: 3[/SIGN]

 

[KatholikosMercy]

To point a finger at the posters at CARM, and not recognize the very thing you condemn here, is not convincing.

…

There is a definite double standard of bigotry on carm that simply does not exist here because its not tolerated.

Though people here may not always choose their words wisely and may inadvertantly insult someone by calling them a protestant the intent is seldom to tell you off the best, as it is on carm. Read the posts of the Admin named DianeS or another who provokes with a personal account under the name of Bonnie if you need examples.

Hypocracy is condoned there for the sake of anti-Catholic bigotry and the site only entertains Catholics to slander and denounce them with ill will in the name of Chist which is an affront against the Holy Spirit.

The moderators on carm should be ashamed of themselves period.

Your misguided defense of their anti-Catholic propaganda and rhetoric that approaches the tactics and dishonest hatred of Jack Chick is irrelevant.

Religious intollerance and anti-semeitic -like- anti-catholicism should be stamped out where ever it rears its ugly head. This country has fought to hard for its freedoms to sanction this last bastion of bigotry and prejudice waged against Catholics by the likes of Matt Sickster and his invention; carm.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I don’t care…it’s not my responsibility. I am responsible for my own posts and I post where I please.

I’ve heard that same crack from a-Cs, but regardless of source it’s still just a rationalism for being a jerk in the name of one’s religion.

If you don’t like my posts to you and you see that they are in violation of a forum rule here, then feel free to report me, but I’ll wager that you’ll have a tough time finding the level of rudeness and rhetorical propaganda that I was subjected to on CARM and my Catholic brothers and sisters endure there even now.

IMO, it’s a garbage board and I won’t post there. (It’s not the only one that I won’t support…but if they are like that, I won’t go there.) Obviously, if anyone there wants to hear the Catholic side of any issue, they…just like you, know where to find us.

I don’t whine and cry about it all. I’m thick skinned enough to take a hit and walk off, but I don’t have to bother with them any more and I have plenty of forums where my time is not wasted.

I just try real hard not to stoop to the level of some of those I have dealt with.

I don’t have to convince anyone to convert.
That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

It’s really very simple guys.
[SIGN]BOYCOTT CARM![/SIGN]Let 'em talk to themselves.

Sorry for risking the tickeling of your ears by I can’t help myself and have to shout an AMEN! to this post.

Titus 3-10: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

 

[MarcoPolo]

After weeks of asking the CARM site owner this very question of: by what authority the essentials are made I got the following answer from him:

Mr. Matt Slick said: They are just in the bible.

That’s interesting…do you still have the exchange? Is that something you would be willng to PM me? Or is “they are just in the bible” a quote?

 

[Nicene]

FWIW there is no charity in not pointing out that equating scripture with and elevating it to the level of the authority of God (giving it final authority) is in fact bibliolarty.

The defense has been that Jesus and the apostles practiced sola scriptura. Even James White admits this is not true.

Jesus says that our Father gave him authority:

Mt 28:18: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And what is the body, and who is the head of it? The church, the body, and Jesus Christ, the head. This is a reality, not a metaphor. The bible did not create the universe, God did. God also inspired the bible and gave it to us. But why? Paul tells us. So who is here to guide us, God the Holy Spirit? Or the bible?

I do notice that you chose not to answer any of the objections, but rather picked on me calling it biblioatry and called it uncharitable. The bible is for reproof and what else? I would call this a big correction.

However concerning pointing out the one line that was not liked and skipping the rest:

Lk 18:10: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12: I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' 13: But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In attempting to point out my supposed sin (to the exclusion of the rest of the post) which category did you fall under?

Of course the rebuttal of failing can always be, “Well you just did the same thing just now.”

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[KatholikosMercy]

That’s interesting…do you still have the exchange? Is that something you would be willng to PM me? Or is “they are just in the bible” a quote?

I believe that was a ver-batum quote.

I have the entire E-mail exchange in Outlook.

I just ended it recently.

 

[Good_Fella]

In spite of all the anti-Catholic bashing that goes on in the CARM Discussion Forum,
because of unlearned and prejudiced Protestants of whatever or no denomination, at
least the moderators haven’t deleted my arguments against Protestant concepts
and for Catholic doctrines and dogmas.

 

[Atemi]

There is a definite double standard of bigotry on carm that simply does not exist here because its not tolerated.

Yes. That is what you must believe.

I understand.

Hypocracy is condoned there for the sake of anti-Catholic bigotry and the site only entertains Catholics to slander and denounce them with ill will in the name of Chist which is an affront against the Holy Spirit.

The moderators on carm should be ashamed of themselves period.

For hosting a site that promotes the free expression and exchange of ideas and criticisms?

Yes, I guess you would have to feel that way.

Your misguided defense of their anti-Catholic propaganda and rhetoric that approaches the tactics and dishonest hatred of Jack Chick is irrelevant.

Yes. Everything that disagrees with you is “anti-Catholic.”

I already know this.

Religious intollerance and anti-semeitic -like- anti-catholicism should be stamped out where ever it rears its ugly head.

Translation: stamp out the free exchange of ideas and free thought…if it disagrees with Roman Catholicism.

Got it.

It is funny that I hear the same talk come from radical homosexuals who seek to expand their influence in our schools. They use exactly the same arguments to shame those who disagree with their agenda.

They say those who say they are wrong are “intolerant” and are “homophobes.”

By doing this, they seek to remove all resistance and dissent from what they promote.

These tactics do work, yes, but you should not use them as a Christian yourself.

This country has fought to hard for its freedoms to sanction this last bastion of bigotry and prejudice waged against Catholics by the likes of Matt Sickster and his invention; carm.

Yes. Freedom.

Freedom to speak as freely as anyone likes about Protestantism or Catholicism.

You obviously cannot stand the idea.

It’s a good thing we live in America then.

…

 

[Atemi]

Matt Slicks forums are blatantly anti-Catholic.

First of all, there are only 2 forums for the discussion of Roman Catholicism.

Secondly, just about half the posters on both those forums are Catholic.

Hello?

The other half of the posters, of course, hold the position that the RCC’s claims for herself are erroneous.

I guess all those posters are “blatantly anti-Catholic.” That seems to be the popular, though highly misguided, charge.

His moderators discriminate against catholics and ban them for defending the faith.

Wrong.

This is false witness as it is plainly not so.

If you were right, there would be no more Catholic posters there.

Even the Catholic posters there, that have any experience, would disagree with you…as they are still posting year after year.

And they would be the last ones to say they are not “defending the faith”!

LOL.

Granted, we do have Catholic posters that have come and gone and been banned for breaking the rules as another RC poster here boasted about. He is proud that he has consistently caused trouble on the boards and broken the rules. He is proud because he did it in the name of Mother Church.

Other that those types, you can say whatever you want to defend Catholicism. That is what that type of forum is for.

They even go so far as to use personal accounts to rudely antagonize Catholics and blaspheme the Catholic Faith and when it is defended they are banned with extreme bigotry and prejudice.

“They” are other posters.

BTW, since saying that the RCC is not Christ’s church is to “blaspheme” her, you don’t have much of a point, IMO.

I have never experienced such anti-Catholic bigotry anywhere else than what is condoned on the CARM site.

Maybe because you are not around people who are free to speak their minds.

I have reported them to the Catholic Civil Liberties Union and pray their site is stopped from the wanton discrimination by whatever means it takes.

Ahhh.

End the free exchange of ideas. That’s always the best for civil liberties…

…

 

[Nicene]

Yes. That is what you must believe.

I understand.

For hosting a site that promotes the free expression and exchange of ideas and criticisms?

Yes, I guess you would have to feel that way.

Yes. Everything that disagrees with you is “anti-Catholic.”

I already know this.

Translation: stamp out the free exchange of ideas and free thought…if it disagrees with Roman Catholicism.

Got it.

It is funny that I hear the same talk come from radical homosexuals who seek to expand their influence in our schools. They use exactly the same arguments to shame those who disagree with their agenda.

They say those who say they are wrong are “intolerant” and are “homophobes.”

By doing this, they seek to remove all resistance and dissent from what they promote.

These tactics do work, yes, but you should not use them as a Christian yourself.

Yes. Freedom.

Freedom to speak as freely as anyone likes about Protestantism or Catholicism.

You obviously cannot stand the idea.

It’s a good thing we live in America then.

…

Then since you obviously have no problem promoting discrimination under the guise of “freedom of speech” why do you complain if catholics reply to protestants in the same manner?

Double standard?

FYI, the WWW is just that, not the united states. You may be surprised that the world wide web isn’t governed by the laws of United States. I would call that egocentrism for sure; arrogant and superior, possibly.

So under this “free exchange of ideas” (there’s a euphamism) you should have no problem with the exact same “free exchange of ideas” in language and attitude. Again, why complain?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[EJM]

I asked CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) the meaning of a note on their testimonials page reading: “(Note: CARM recognizes that many Catholics are Christian)”. In response I was given a link to their article on Catholics which could be summarized in its concluding paragraphs with “If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture.”

In other words, a Catholic is a Christian only if he does not follow the Church, i.e. a Catholic in name only. And nowhere in the article was addressed any Scripture cited by the Church about salvation.

What especially caught my eye in the article was CARM’s own doctrine called the 4 “essential doctrines” as determined apparently by CARM. These are the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Resurrection, and the gospel.

This reminded me of the sola scriptura position that begs the question, where in the Bible are the books of the Bible listed?

So with my curiosity peaked, has anyone ever heard a Protestant (CARM or otherwise) attempt to assert how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them? That’s something I’d like to read.

What is kind of interesting is that CARM’s web site at one time listed a different version of ‘Essentials’. A previous version only listed 3 items when now it lists 4 items. Maybe in a year or two the number of essentials (according to carm) will change again.

How can essentials of salvation change???

btw, here is source code that is still in their page refering back to when they thought there was only 3 essential, not 4 as they do now.
Essential Christian Doctrine, 3 essentials, three, Christian, Doctrine, Christian, Christianity, Christian Doctrine, Bible, God, Jesus
Peace