The Eternal [Mormon] Temple in the Eternal City [of Rome]

[Tony888]

I acknowledge that they think people can choose again once their life is completed…

But how do Mormons feel about their children marrying Catholics and then having the children raised Catholic? They obviously would be married in a Catholic church. There are plenty in Italy.

How would Mormons feel about their children marrying in a Catholic church and having their children baptized as Catholics?

I am addressing this compartmental thinking…the Mormons can do it but the Catholics can’t…like the Apostles, witnesses to His Majesty, Jesus Christ, as St. Peter addressed Him, were unable to appoint successors, whereas the Mormons can.

I’m not sure what your point is Kathleen.
Obviously LDS parents would feel the same as Catholic parents in the same situation. Has anyone insinuated that LDS would not feel as a Catholic parent?

 

[Ahimsa]

How would Mormons feel about their children marrying in a Catholic church and having their children baptized as Catholics?

Being baptized, in this life, as a Catholic means that a living physical body is baptized; it also means that one is forever marked by this baptism.

The Mormon post-death baptism does not involve the baptism of the actual person’s body; and, as far as I know, one does not get an eternal mark from the baptism, unless one exercises one’s free-will and accepts the baptism.

 

[Ahimsa]

I think there’s a difference between the extemporaneous, private prayers that Mormons say silently in their hearts and the (semi-) public rituals, like baptisms, that are performed in LDS temples. As a Catholic, I don’t believe those rituals have any value. So, no, I do not believe that God “listens to” their rituals. If I did, I’d be Mormon.

As far as the private, “freehand” prayers that members of the LDS church sincerely offer to God in their hearts and minds, I’d say two things. 1) God can “hear” the prayers of every man, woman and child on Earth. 2) I have no idea how He chooses to respond to the vast majority of those prayers. 3) I don’t believe that Mormons and Catholics pray to/worship/adore the same God.

Why would God not listen to someone praying during a ritual, but then listen to someone’s “freehand” (extemporaneous?) prayer?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Why would God not listen to someone praying during a ritual, but then listen to someone’s “freehand” (extemporaneous?) prayer?

Fair enough.

To clarify, God can obviously “listen to” everything that happens on Earth. While I have no idea how He chooses to respond to the silent prayers offered up in the hearts and minds of Mormons, I do not believe that He chooses to respond to their rituals. If I did believe that, I’d be Mormon.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think it also has to do with the direction you want to take …

I think the Italians are with the Lord Jesus…why would they take another route?

As I was sharing here…a sister friend told me about her Jesuit priest friend…they worked together serving the poor in Alaska. After he passed away, she felt his presence for 3 weeks. Over and over again she could feel his presence, saying to her, 'Sylvia, Jesus is tremendous!!! Sylvia, Jesus is tremendous!!

I think it will be the same for every Christian and soul who turns to Him in their last moments.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Baptizing and praying are two different things, that’s why we have different words for them.

Tony can you understand why someone might find baptism for their deceased loved ones offensive? I asked you this long before you brought it up here and you never responded. I’m curious because like I told you before I have never seen a compassionate, empathetic and understanding response from a member of the LDS church. So I’m still looking for one.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Don’t the Orthodox pray for the salvation of all people?

Yes, as should all Christians, but they don’t hold memorial services for non-Orthodox Christians.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Baptizing and praying are two different things, that’s why we have different words for them.

Tony can you understand why someone might find baptism for their deceased loved ones offensive? I asked you this long before you brought it up here and you never responded. I’m curious because like I told you before I have never seen a compassionate, empathetic and understanding response from a member of the LDS church. So I’m still looking for one.

I personally don’t see how it’s offensive. It’s a private Mormon temple ritual, behind closed doors. And since I don’t believe in Mormonism, I don’t believe that ritual will even work, so what does it matter? I think it’s a big difference with respect to people who offer Catholic burials for “officially” Catholic people when they may have never cared about the faith at all, or converted to another one.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think there is something missing here…

And that is baptizing a person against their will, and especially in death after our rituals. To make statements that a person never lived out their faith and got caught up with the world is not the same as a person rejecting the Catholic faith and not wanting a Catholic funeral.

The other issue is the stance the Mormon religion has historically had against the Roman church, its own rituals in denouncing my faith and my people, its teachings that our priesthood, beliefs, practices are corrupt. The Mormons are not wanting the public to know this, and they have been actively removing all these references.

And likewise, subsequently, it is then very offensive with the temple up, to then go into Italian records and ‘baptize’ deceased people without their will or that of their living loved ones. Because of anti-Semitism, the Jews are very sensitive and upset their deceased are being treated this way.

You have to respect other people and their deceased. You cannot impose your beliefs on them, especially behind their back.

The Mormon religion needs to be very upfront to the Italian people to let them know precisely what that temple is going to be used for…and that if an Italian family has a child enter into the Mormon religion, then the child will look at the their own family’s belief now as corrupt, and the Italian family will not be allowed into the temple for their own child’s wedding if the child and spouse decide to seal their wedding.

Does anyone body around here know Italian culture of the family? The Mormon religion would greatly sever this sacred unity. I would be devastated and cry so much if I was not allowed to my chidren’s wedding…

I mean to be oblivious or write it off is just not thinking things through.

Mormon parents would be allowed to the Catholic wedding…it would be most sinful and destructive to not permit loved ones to attend a Catholic sacrament.

I grew up in an immigrant Italian neighborhood. For most of my growing up years, I attended the Italian mission church 5 blocks from my home, and I could hear the church bells. I walked home from school and would see our Italian pastor walking back and forth praying the rosary in front of the church. I would witness their Italian weddings and festivities in their homes.

There is a custom in Italy that the family comes home together to find out something good that happened that day, and to celebrate.

The great scandal religions cause is when they disconnect from their effects on the people around them. If I had not gone into that Deseret store by the state temple, and saw what was written in the books there about the Roman church…I would not be as sensitive about this movement of Mormons getting now their temple in Rome.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I mean to be oblivious or write it off is just not thinking things through.

With respect, I would argue that giving these rituals far too much credit is “not thinking things through.” LDS baptisms for the dead do not have the slightest effect on the souls of the departed. They could baptize Blessed JPII a thousand times a day and it will not affect his soul one single bit. Not one.

The only reason to care about any of this stuff is if you think it might actually work.

 

[KathleenGee]

Of course, these baptisms have no effect.

You cannot separate religion from people and how they live out their lives…and the family is the basis of society. Good prosletyzing respects the people for who they are. I don’t like backhanded ways, or rushing people into baptism with no questions asked, and then after, you are given a new set of beliefs either.

Mormonism has made the ‘Roman Church’ the construct for its own justification and sanctification, and it imagines itself gaining new members by going behind the Roman Church to baptized its deceased…that is not the work of the Holy Spirit, and the natives there should be forewarned.

The Mormon religion is even going so far in denying any such position was held. I don’t like lying and never will justify it.

 

[Stephen168]

There was tenderness and reverence in his voice as Thomas S. Monson, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), said the Mormon temple being built in Rome, Italy, “uniquely, is being built in one of the most historic locations in the world, a city where the ancient apostles Peter and Paul preached the gospel of Christ and where each was martyred.”

Monson, considered a prophet by Mormons, addressed millions of members around the world in a biannual satellite broadcast in April. Recalling the Rome groundbreaking on an overcast day in October 2010, attended by Italian senator Lucio Malan and Rome’s vice-mayor Giuseppe Ciardi along with many Italian members of the LDS church, he said that as the choir sang, “one felt as though heaven and earth were joined in a glorious hymn of praise and gratitude to Almighty God. Tears could not be restrained.”
…
Latter-day Saint missionaries were present in Italy as early as 1850, a mere twenty years after the Church was first established by Joseph Smith in upstate New York, but it wasn’t until 1965 that missionary work there started in earnest after receiving authorization from the Italian government. Today, there are about 24,000 members in Italy, comprising over a hundred congregations.

It is a shame the temple isn’t built in the same style as the ancient Christian temples.

 

[KathleenGee]

The architecture will speak for itself.

I don’t mind the Mormons so much doing what they do here in America.

But it is the point that they are squaring off against the Catholic Church ever since its beginnings, we are on their web pages where they refute our teachings to their followers…and now covering their tracks, they are going into the Roman countryside…and seeking to bring new and – deceased Italian Catholics who may change their minds (of course they won’t) to become as gods.

I remember sharing a letter from St. Justin the Martyr describing how Mass was said in Rome and in the surrounding countryside here, and it was considered as meaningless by the Mormons…so the full deck is not there in regards to sensitivity.

I remember reading on ex-Mormons about a young woman missionary who went to Italy, who was set up to pass out anti-Catholic literature in front of a cathedral there, and she felt so bad…the people coming out and very hurt and offended, letting the Mormons know.

 

[Tony888]

The Mormon religion is even going so far in denying any such position was held. I don’t like lying and never will justify it.

Please expand. What position is the LDS church now denying existed?

But it is the point that they are squaring off against the Catholic Church ever since its beginnings, we are on their web pages where they refute our teachings to their followers…and now covering their tracks, they are going into the Roman countryside…and seeking to bring new and – deceased Italian Catholics who may change their minds (of course they won’t) to become as gods.

You are generalizing to the point of slander. Please be specific so we can discuss. And I expect the Italiahn Catholics will have studied their Catechism and are not shocked at the concept of “Christ became man so that man might become God”

I remember sharing a letter from St. Justin the Martyr describing how Mass was said in Rome and in the surrounding countryside here, and it was considered as meaningless by the Mormons…so the full deck is not there in regards to sensitivity.

Call for References please, that the LDS chruch made such a claim

I remember reading on ex-Mormons about a young woman missionary who went to Italy, who was set up to pass out anti-Catholic literature in front of a cathedral there, and she felt so bad…the people coming out and very hurt and offended, letting the Mormons know.

Call for References that this did happen and was directed by the local Mission leadership. Clearly this would have made the news if true.

 

[Conor7]

The other issue is the stance the Mormon religion has historically had against the Roman church, its own rituals in denouncing my faith and my people, its teachings that our priesthood, beliefs, practices are corrupt. The Mormons are not wanting the public to know this, and they have been actively removing all these references.

And likewise, subsequently, it is then very offensive with the temple up, to then go into Italian records and ‘baptize’ deceased people without their will or that of their living loved ones. Because of anti-Semitism, the Jews are very sensitive and upset their deceased are being treated this way.

You have to respect other people and their deceased. You cannot impose your beliefs on them, especially behind their back.

I don’t think you are being fair here. I think if you take your first paragraph quoted above and interchange Catholic and Mormon, you would very much echo the feelings of someone who is LDS.

Additionally, it’s no more offensive for a Mormon to baptize the deceased than it is for you to pray for an atheist, Lutheran, or anyone else who has not solicited your prayer.

Try to be more tolerant here. You start trying to strip people of their right to practice their own religion and you may one day find yourself stripped.

 

[PaulDupre]

I don’t think you are being fair here. I think if you take your first paragraph quoted above and interchange Catholic and Mormon, you would very much echo the feelings of someone who is LDS.

In all my years of attending Catholic mass, I have NEVER heard a reference to another religion - good or bad. Yet during the 11 years when I was LDS, I heard many, many diatribes against Christianity in general and against Catholicism in particular from the LDS pulpit and in general conference. The pre-1990 LDS temple endowment contained a parody of a Christian minister depicted as a fool and an employee of Satan. In your LDS scriptures it says that all Christian doctrines are abominations to God. The Catholic Church would never lower itself to snipe at other religions like that.

Additionally, it’s no more offensive for a Mormon to baptize the deceased than it is for you to pray for an atheist, Lutheran, or anyone else who has not solicited your prayer.

I don’t care about your silly and meaningless magic-treehouse rituals with your secret handshakes and passwords. Saint Paul counsels us to pray for all men, but the bible never instructs us to baptize dead people against their will.

Try to be more tolerant here. You start trying to strip people of their right to practice their own religion and you may one day find yourself stripped.

No one is trying to deny anyone his right to practice his religion. Just understand that we see you as silly and terribly disrespectful.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Psst - Paul. I’m pretty sure Conor isn’t Mormon.

 

[KathleenGee]

Paul Dupre is speaking about the very actions and rituals I am referring to that were happening in the Mormon church.

People here are not realizing the great rift that is there.

You don’t see Catholics going behind Mormons to baptize their members. You don’t see parents being excluded from their children’s wedding…and I am speaking here of the Mormon sealing ceremony…I am speaking specifically as to what these temples are used for. And how damaging that would be for very tight families, not to be allowed to attend…

People do not know Italian culture. And the Italians do not know the history of Mormon practices, their books, the links being removed from the internet that will let you understand better, or the practices of the Temple, how exclusive they will become.

Yes, the Mormon Church needs to fully disclose what they will be doing at the Mormon temple. It is for sealings and non-Mormons will not be allowed to attend, including the mother and father and siblings. And it will be used to baptized deceased Italians in Rome without anyone’s consent, and all the more because this temple is going up across town from the Vatican. This is so much against the Italian culture and respect for their great Catholic heritage, for the many popes and ecclesiastics we have from Italy as well as many, many saints who have greatly helped our faith down through the ages.

Viva l’Italia!!!

 

[KathleenGee]

The other ongoing I see in America is this blindness to other people’s culture, their upbringing, their own unique gifts. It is so common to ignore their culture and want to impose something foreign on them, rather than work with what they have and bring Christ, enlighten Christ to their own genius.

Rather, other peoples and cultures have something to teach us, whether they are rich or poor.

 

[Conor7]

In all my years of attending Catholic mass, I have NEVER heard a reference to another religion - good or bad. Yet during the 11 years when I was LDS, I heard many, many diatribes against Christianity in general and against Catholicism in particular from the LDS pulpit and in general conference. The pre-1990 LDS temple endowment contained a parody of a Christian minister depicted as a fool and an employee of Satan. In your LDS scriptures it says that all Christian doctrines are abominations to God. The Catholic Church would never lower itself to snipe at other religions like that.

Paul, come on now, look at the first page of this forum. It’s chalked full of Mormon threads that are less than charitable to the LDS. And, let’s be honest, the Catholic Church is too powerful; it doesn’t need to snipe at other religious when it can simply use a little muscle to round up “heretics” and “witches” to use as kindling.

Perhaps bringing up something that happened 600 years ago isn’t fair, but I am simply trying to illustrate a point.

Anyway, who cares what Mormons think of you? I’ve got Mormons trying to convert me on the street, Catholics calling me a heretic, and Protestants demanding I be born again. And yet, I’m OK with myself.

I don’t care about your silly and meaningless magic-treehouse rituals with your secret handshakes and passwords.

Are you intentionally being crass?

Just understand that we see you as silly and terribly disrespectful.

And, Crdl2Grv is right, I’m not a Mormon. I’m just trying to offer a little perspective. Call me a good Samaritan…