po18guy
Well-known member
When the interpretation is a novelty, and differs substantially from 2,000 years of settled interpretation, yes it does matter.
We’re talking about eternal Heaven or eternal hell. Yes, it matters!
THE EUCHARIST - How can anyone claim to “believe” in Jesus, if they deny what He taught and will not follow what He said?
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We’re talking about eternal Heaven or eternal hell. Yes, it matters!
M
myredeemerlives
Guest
As promised, my response for my belief of Justification by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation.
Jhn 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Act 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, "BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was** accounted to him for righteousness."** Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Gal 3:1-2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Rom 10:8-11
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of **faith **which we preach) that if you **confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. **
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 3:20-24
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There are many more verses but I’ll try and keep it short.
Jhn 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Act 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, "BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was** accounted to him for righteousness."** Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Gal 3:1-2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Rom 10:8-11
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of **faith **which we preach) that if you **confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. **
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 3:20-24
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There are many more verses but I’ll try and keep it short.
C
ckempston
Guest
You seem to be suggesting that belief is equivalent to mental assent, like most who hold to Justification by Faith “ALONE.” The problem is, Biblical faith is not simply mental assent, but an active trust. If someone says he or she believes in Jesus, but says, “I don’t have to be baptized to be forgiven of my sins” then I would contend that that person does not actually believe in Jesus. If you do believe that you have to follow any process (including repentence and baptism) to recieve (intial) forgiveness of sins, then this is a moot point, and the phrase “Justification by Faith Alone” becomes pretty meaningless. I guess there might be a question in there somewhere.
G
geezerbob
Guest
Jesus Himself says otherwise in Mt. 25:31-46. You’ve been asked to reconcile this parable with your stated belief more than once, but have failed to do so. How about it, MRL?
N
nsper7
Guest
The crux of the disagreement is what exactly ‘faith’ is. Here are a couple of articles written by a well-known Free Grace theologian that discuss the issue:You seem to be suggesting that belief is equivalent to mental assent, like most who hold to Justification by Faith “ALONE.” The problem is, Biblical faith is not simply mental assent, but an active trust. If someone says he or she believes in Jesus, but says, “I don’t have to be baptized to be forgiven of my sins” then I would contend that that person does not actually believe in Jesus. If you do believe that you have to follow any process (including repentence and baptism) to recieve (intial) forgiveness of sins, then this is a moot point, and the phrase “Justification by Faith Alone” becomes pretty meaningless. I guess there might be a question in there somewhere.
Beware of Confusion About Faith
Head Faith, Heart Faith and Mind Games
I assume the ‘other side’ will disagree with the views put forth by the author whose articles I am linking, but at least it will allow one to see the other point-of-view.
J
jay29
Guest
Christianity DID NOT have it wrong until the 1500s. Sorry. Will never buy that nonsense.All those new fangled heresies contrived during the “reformation” were never believed in those days at all.
C
ckempston
Guest
The problem with “Faith Alone” proponents is that they cherry-pick the faith passages out of the Bible as if they’re the only ones that exist regarding salvation. If it was that easy, the New Testament would have been a heck of a lot shorter. As for me, I’ll stick with what James said regarding Faith - without works, it is dead.
M
myredeemerlives
Guest
I didn’t “cherry pick” as you call it… I just picked a small selection from a big bible full of verses such as that.
Faith without works is dead yes… but by my works I will prove my faith.
That verse is saying just “believing” isn’t enough, you must have the kind of faith that will put all of your trust in Jesus’ finished work on the cross, and call on Him for forgiveness. That’s the gospel people…
Eat my body, drink my blood… symbolic of the blood poured outby Jesus on the cross. Face it, salvation is of the LORD.
Faith without works is dead yes… but by my works I will prove my faith.
That verse is saying just “believing” isn’t enough, you must have the kind of faith that will put all of your trust in Jesus’ finished work on the cross, and call on Him for forgiveness. That’s the gospel people…
Eat my body, drink my blood… symbolic of the blood poured outby Jesus on the cross. Face it, salvation is of the LORD.
C
ckempston
Guest
You’re not “cherry picking” but you’re “pick[ing] a small selection from a big bible.” That would be the definition of cherry picking, MRL.
M
MrS
Guest
\
And they all have the word believe at the core.
Wow… the devil believes in God, believes in Jesus Christ…
Are you including his belief as saving him?
.
I contend…
That if you do not believe in John 6, and the very words of Jesus the Christ Who four, 4, times instructs us in the Eucharist…
then your belief falls short of the glories of God.
I am not saying you will not be saved… that is for you to be judged by Jesus. His Mercy will prevail if you have merited His Mercy.
But I am saying that to believe in Jesus does not allow for selective belief. It does not allow for ignoring His commands. It does not allow for remaining - by conscience choice - outside of His one and only Church.
And we all expect that you will not be able to reconcile :
1Peter “…baptism now saves you…”
or the ongoing salvation/justification process of Abraham…
or St Paul asking others to pray that he not fall
or the major difference between works and works of the law,
or the many, many versese that talk of the importance of work
That is another reason why non-Catholic faith communities who prefer to be “grounded only in the Scriptures, as they know it” will eventually box them selves into a corner.
They are, for the very most part, built on an either-or theology. And their choices of interpretation are made to support erroneous theology.
Catholics, for the very most part, have the foundation of both-and theology. That is why the Scripture verses will never contradict each other with the Catholic understanding and interpretation.
The Eucharist is the most important gift Jesus gave us. It is Himself.
by the way… does the word “obey” imply any concept of work for you?
.
M
MrS
Guest
then what does this mean to you:
John 14
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
C
ckempston
Guest
I can come up with an equally impressive number of passages that say we are saved by works/obedience. Would you call this cherry-picking? I am not arguing that you can be saved by works alone, but that you can find passages (taken out of context) that would seem to say as much.
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
M
MrS
Guest
Be careful ckempston
People might think you are Catholic…
especially if you show how faith and works is just that
Faith AND Works… not Faith OR Works:thumbsup:
.
People might think you are Catholic…
especially if you show how faith and works is just that
Faith AND Works… not Faith OR Works:thumbsup:
.
C
cazayoux
Guest
ahhh … more refreshing than my morning coffee to read this.
Discovery is EXCITING isn’t it?!
… can be scary and make you anxious as well.
Following Jesus isn’t always easy, but necessary.
With love my brother,
michel
M
MrS
Guest
Reminds me of a short story…
About the young boy who spend so much time and effort making a little sail boat. He was so happy with his project.
Then he took the boat to the river to do what boats do. But the little sail boat just sailed away, out of reach, out of sight. And the little boy was saddened.
After a time, the little boy was walking down the street in his town, and, looking into a store window, saw his little boat for sale!! He ran into the store and asked the manager to give him back his little boat. The man said no. The boat was for sale only.
So the boy went home, emptied his piggy bank of every coin, and returned to the store. After laying all his savings on the counter, he got his boat back.
As he left the store, he was so happy. He said “I get to love you twice… once when I made you, and once when I redeemed you.”
I feel kind of like that in reverse. Like a little boat, I got to love the Lord when I was young. Then after 25 years out of the Church, I got to Love Him again.
So, ckempston… just Love the Lord, and He will show you the way.
.
About the young boy who spend so much time and effort making a little sail boat. He was so happy with his project.
Then he took the boat to the river to do what boats do. But the little sail boat just sailed away, out of reach, out of sight. And the little boy was saddened.
After a time, the little boy was walking down the street in his town, and, looking into a store window, saw his little boat for sale!! He ran into the store and asked the manager to give him back his little boat. The man said no. The boat was for sale only.
So the boy went home, emptied his piggy bank of every coin, and returned to the store. After laying all his savings on the counter, he got his boat back.
As he left the store, he was so happy. He said “I get to love you twice… once when I made you, and once when I redeemed you.”
I feel kind of like that in reverse. Like a little boat, I got to love the Lord when I was young. Then after 25 years out of the Church, I got to Love Him again.
So, ckempston… just Love the Lord, and He will show you the way.
.
C
ckempston
Guest
Glad I could provide you with some edification.ahhh … more refreshing than my morning coffee to read this.
Discovery is EXCITING isn’t it?!
… can be scary and make you anxious as well.
Following Jesus isn’t always easy, but necessary.
With love my brother,
michel
My past confusions, conflicts, and education seem to have all slammed into alignment with a big flashing arrow that points at the Catholic Church. I feel like I’ve had this inclination for years, but have largely ignored/denied it up until now.
J
JRKH
Guest
I appreciate your use of logic to try and discern Truth. It demonstrates a desire not to be swayed by emotional issues. However I will say that logic can only take one so far in regards to discerning the Truth of God and His Works.
I don’t agree that one can remove “Authority” from these discussions. Whether it is stated or not, Authority is one of the core elements for interpretation and discernment.
Having said this, perhaps we can “recast” the authority issue less in terms of some power and more in terms of history. The Original Post placed before the group a series of bible exerpts as well as exerpts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers. These, along with the consistant, unbroken teachings of the oldest, largest and most universally recognized Christian church, the Catholic Church, speaks of great Authority having been passed down to us from the Time of Christ.
If it could definitively be shown that the Early Church did not believe in the real presence, if it could be shown that this belief was added later, then perhaps there would be a logical basis for debate. However, it has been shown time and again that the Early Fathers in the Church believed in the Real Presence, and also that The leader of the Reformation, Martin Luther, shared this belief in the Rel Presence. Thus the onus of proof must, be on those who, now, deny the real presence in spite of the great historical evidence.
If the authority of the Church upon which we believe is found to have been wrong when Christ returns, we will throw ourselves on the Mercy of Our Lord and Savior as Children who followed Him as best we could by adhering to THE CHURCH which HE founded. By ACCEPTING the authority of those who “sit on the chair of Peter” just as Jesus himself taught the the Jews should follow the elders becasue they “sit on the seat of Moses”.
Peace
James
T
twosweetgirls
Guest
ckempston, just let yourself float in the waters of the Tiber; it’s plenty warm and wonderfully bouyant! (((HUGS))) on your journey. 
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