THE EUCHARIST - How can anyone claim to “believe” in Jesus, if they deny what He taught and will not follow what He said?

[JonNC]

Having said this, perhaps we can “recast” the authority issue less in terms of some power and more in terms of history. The Original Post placed before the group a series of bible exerpts as well as exerpts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers. These, along with the consistant, unbroken teachings of the oldest, largest and most universally recognized Christian church, the Catholic Church, speaks of great Authority having been passed down to us from the Time of Christ.
If it could definitively be shown that the Early Church did not believe in the real presence, if it could be shown that this belief was added later, then perhaps there would be a logical basis for debate. However, it has been shown time and again that the Early Fathers in the Church believed in the Real Presence, and also that The leader of the Reformation, Martin Luther, shared this belief in the Rel Presence. Thus the onus of proof must, be on those who, now, deny the real presence in spite of the great historical evidence.

Peace
James

James.
It seems often the case, I have noticed, that you argue your faith, not by throwing bombs, but by strongly defending what you believe. You must be complimented for this.

This is an excellent arguement you use to describe/defend authority. And whether or not one agrees with Luther/Melanchton/Chemitz, they always pointed to the early church and the ECF’s to support their statements.
In the case of the real presence, while it is helpful to have church history and the ECF’s, the clarity of scripture makes them virtually unneeded: “This is my body, this is my blood.” No metaphor here, He says it literally.

While those who reject the real presence are, I believe in heterodox, I will not condemn them as “rejecting Christ”. It is not my place to judge their hearts.

Jon

 

[ibkc]

whoops, wrong thread.

 

[nsper7]

The crux of the disagreement is what exactly ‘faith’ is. Here are a couple of articles written by a well-known Free Grace theologian that discuss the issue:

Beware of Confusion About Faith
Head Faith, Heart Faith and Mind Games

I assume the ‘other side’ will disagree with the views put forth by the author whose articles I am linking, but at least it will allow one to see the other point-of-view.

Here is a response to the James 2 controversy. Admittedly, it examines it from an angle not often taken, but it seems legitimate.

Another View of Faith and Works in James 2
The Faith of Demons: James 2:19

In regards to the passages quoted that address obedience, you will note that none of them mention Salvation (justification) as being threatened if one fails to obey. Also, if you are going to accuse “Faith Alone” types of cherry-picking, then shouldn’t you not do so yourself?

If you wish, we can examine each passage individually and discuss it. To be fair, you can pick the first passage to examine.

 

[ckempston]

In regards to the passages quoted that address obedience, you will note that none of them mention Salvation (justification) as being threatened if one fails to obey. Also, if you are going to accuse “Faith Alone” types of cherry-picking, then shouldn’t you not do so yourself?

Um…

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and **do not obey **the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

don’t obey = punish

Hmmm…sounds like a threat to salvation to me. That wasn’t even an exhaustive list. All the Churches in Revelation believed, but several were told if they did not repent (i.e. OBEY), Jesus would remove their lampstand. He also told the lukewarm church in Laodecia (i.e. NOT OBEYING because of THEIR DEEDS) that he was about to spit them out of his mouth. Presumably, all these churches still “believed.”

 

[nsper7]

Um…

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and **do not obey **the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

don’t obey = punish

Hmmm…sounds like a threat to salvation to me. That wasn’t even an exhaustive list. All the Churches in Revelation believed, but several were told if they did not repent (i.e. OBEY), Jesus would remove their lampstand. He also told the lukewarm church in Laodecia (i.e. NOT OBEYING because of THEIR DEEDS) that he was about to spit them out of his mouth. Presumably, all these churches still “believed.”

There are other punishments besides loss of Eternal Salvation. Read the Old Testament…you’ll see plenty of such punishments.

Here are some more articles:

Repentance in the Epistles and Revelation
To Repent or Not to Repent

Also, what verse is it that Jesus threats to spit churches out of His mouth? I am not disbelieving you (I know the verse exists), I just want a reference so I can better respond (or better link to an argument).

 

[JRKH]

James.
It seems often the case, I have noticed, that you argue your faith, not by throwing bombs, but by strongly defending what you believe. You must be complimented for this.

This is an excellent arguement you use to describe/defend authority. And whether or not one agrees with Luther/Melanchton/Chemitz, they always pointed to the early church and the ECF’s to support their statements.
In the case of the real presence, while it is helpful to have church history and the ECF’s, the clarity of scripture makes them virtually unneeded: “This is my body, this is my blood.” No metaphor here, He says it literally.

While those who reject the real presence are, I believe in heterodox, I will not condemn them as “rejecting Christ”. It is not my place to judge their hearts.

Jon

JonNC,
Thank you for your kind words.
Like you I will not judge others, but neither will I accept that a 2000 year old tradition and faith needs to defend or prove it’s authority against ideas that are, in many cases, only a couple of hundred years old.
There ar those here who like to “Throw bombs” as it were but I don’t find that to be particularly helpful. I am more inspired by those who remain focused on the realities of a topic and don’t allow themselves to be sidetracked.

Peace
James

 

[ckempston]

There are other punishments besides loss of Eternal Salvation. Read the Old Testament…you’ll see plenty of such punishments.

Here are some more articles:

Repentance in the Epistles and Revelation
To Repent or Not to Repent

Also, what verse is it that Jesus threats to spit churches out of His mouth? I am not disbelieving you (I know the verse exists), I just want a reference so I can better respond (or better link to an argument).

If your answers are going to continue to be “read the Old Testament” and linking to other people’s arguments, this is going to be a short discussion.

Revelation 3:16.

 

[nsper7]

If your answers are going to continue to be “read the Old Testament” and linking to other people’s arguments, this is going to be a short discussion.

Revelation 3:16.

Well, in the Old Testament you see numerous punishments that have absolutely nothing to do with Salvation (justification). Also, I link to other people’s arguments because they say my views better than I do. After all, the argument does not have to proceed from my mouth in order for me to fully accept it.

 

[myredeemerlives]

Rom 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

For those who don’t think God’s gift is a free gift of salvation… what does being set free from sin mean? Now when you are saved you don’t get to do what you want… you become a slave of God to obey Him and do His will. You aren’t saved by your good works, but by the grace of God.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you want to be one of those who think that the atonement doesn’t cover all sins and you think you can deal with the sin problem by your own works consider this verse…

“For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

If you have just one sin on your account the day you face God, you are guilty of breaking ALL of God’s laws.

The death of Jesus is IN YOUR PLACE, a substitute. That’s why we are fully saved by trusting Him, otherwise there is no way we could do it by ourselves.

 

[JRKH]

Rom 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

For those who don’t think God’s gift is a free gift of salvation… what does being set free from sin mean? Now when you are saved you don’t get to do what you want… you become a slave of God to obey Him and do His will. You aren’t saved by your good works, but by the grace of God.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you want to be one of those who think that the atonement doesn’t cover all sins and you think you can deal with the sin problem by your own works consider this verse…

“For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

If you have just one sin on your account the day you face God, you are guilty of breaking ALL of God’s laws.

The death of Jesus is IN YOUR PLACE, a substitute. That’s why we are fully saved by trusting Him, otherwise there is no way we could do it by ourselves.

I’m not sure where the idea comes from that Catholics don’t believe that Salvation is a “free gift”, or that Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient, but it is just not correct. The Catholic Church does not teach this.

As for “Being set free of sin” and “Becoming a Slave to God” I will only say that many people have been Freed from Prison through parole, or even pardon only to wind up back in prison for new infractions. Likewise if a slave rebel against his Master (in this case God) the punishment for such revolt will indeed be severe. The Master will cut off that faithless and rebellious servant.
The quotes above cannot support a OSAS position for the simple and True reason that Christ never taught OSAS.

Peace
James

 

[myredeemerlives]

will only say that many people have been Freed from Prison through parole, or even pardon only to wind up back in prison for new infractions. Likewise if a slave rebel against his Master (in this case God) the punishment for such revolt will indeed be severe. The Master will cut off that faithless and rebellious servant.

On judgment day… maybe… but sinning in this life won’t send you to hell. (there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Saved means what it says it means, past tense. Being saved by grace is not running to the priest every week to confess sins in case you end up condemned. That’s hardly the behaviour of a person who knows they are saved.

Also, discipline is not punishment for sin… it’s God working on us to help us be more like Jesus. It hurts when God punishes, but we know we are forgiven none the less.

God doesn’t offer salvation then take it away, give it back, take it away…

 

[ckempston]

Rom 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

For those who don’t think God’s gift is a free gift of salvation… what does being set free from sin mean? Now when you are saved you don’t get to do what you want… you become a slave of God to obey Him and do His will. You aren’t saved by your good works, but by the grace of God.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you want to be one of those who think that the atonement doesn’t cover all sins and you think you can deal with the sin problem by your own works consider this verse…

“For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

If you have just one sin on your account the day you face God, you are guilty of breaking ALL of God’s laws.

The death of Jesus is IN YOUR PLACE, a substitute. That’s why we are fully saved by trusting Him, otherwise there is no way we could do it by ourselves.

You are confusing obedience to Mosaic Law, which is what Paul was condemning here, to obedience to the New Law - that of the Spirit. We still HAVE to obey Jesus’ commands. Period.

 

[ckempston]

will only say that many people have been Freed from Prison through parole, or even pardon only to wind up back in prison for new infractions. Likewise if a slave rebel against his Master (in this case God) the punishment for such revolt will indeed be severe. The Master will cut off that faithless and rebellious servant.

On judgment day… maybe… but sinning in this life won’t send you to hell. (there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Saved means what it says it means, past tense. Being saved by grace is not running to the priest every week to confess sins in case you end up condemned. That’s hardly the behaviour of a person who knows they are saved.

Also, discipline is not punishment for sin… it’s God working on us to help us be more like Jesus. It hurts when God punishes, but we know we are forgiven none the less.

God doesn’t offer salvation then take it away, give it back, take it away…

I don’t think he takes it away and gives it back on a whim, but he does have the ability to take it away. How would you explain these verses:

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Fallen away from Grace? How does that happen and what does it mean?

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Can’t be brought back to repentance? Fall away? What do these things mean?

 

[MrS]

Fallen away from Grace? How does that happen and what does it mean?

Can’t be brought back to repentance? Fall away? What do these things mean?

They mean nothing to OSAS followers.

That is why they believe OSAS… think how much easier it is to know you don’t have to worry or work or wonder about anything.

When judgment day comes, there will be a rude awakening.

.

 

[JRKH]

will only say that many people have been Freed from Prison through parole, or even pardon only to wind up back in prison for new infractions. Likewise if a slave rebel against his Master (in this case God) the punishment for such revolt will indeed be severe. The Master will cut off that faithless and rebellious servant.

On judgment day… maybe… but sinning in this life won’t send you to hell. (there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Saved means what it says it means, past tense. Being saved by grace is not running to the priest every week to confess sins in case you end up condemned. That’s hardly the behaviour of a person who knows they are saved.

Also, discipline is not punishment for sin… it’s God working on us to help us be more like Jesus. It hurts when God punishes, but we know we are forgiven none the less.

God doesn’t offer salvation then take it away, give it back, take it away…

Believe as you will my friend. I pray God will open your eyes.
I do not see Jesus taught no such doctrine, therefore I cannot accept it.

Peace
James

 

[ckempston]

They mean nothing to OSAS followers.

That is why they believe OSAS… think how much easier it is to know you don’t have to worry or work or wonder about anything.

When judgment day comes, there will be a rude awakening.

.

I’m sure it will have something to do with taking some words and changing the meaning so the passage makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Matariel]

will only say that many people have been Freed from Prison through parole, or even pardon only to wind up back in prison for new infractions. Likewise if a slave rebel against his Master (in this case God) the punishment for such revolt will indeed be severe. The Master will cut off that faithless and rebellious servant.

On judgment day… maybe… but sinning in this life won’t send you to hell. (there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Saved means what it says it means, past tense. Being saved by grace is not running to the priest every week to confess sins in case you end up condemned. That’s hardly the behaviour of a person who knows they are saved.

Also, discipline is not punishment for sin… it’s God working on us to help us be more like Jesus. It hurts when God punishes, but we know we are forgiven none the less.

God doesn’t offer salvation then take it away, give it back, take it away…

Sorry, but this is unreconcilable to a slew of Bible verses, such as the one about “enduring to the end” and the one about “working out your own salvation with fear and trembling” and “not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven”…

And to the universal position of Christians from the first century to the 1600’s.

 

[myredeemerlives]

I don’t think he takes it away and gives it back on a whim, but he does have the ability to take it away. How would you explain these verses:

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Fallen away from Grace? How does that happen and what does it mean?

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Can’t be brought back to repentance? Fall away? What do these things mean?

Notice how it is talking about those who have “tasted” salvation by the holy spirit, saved people… saved by grace… who then turn away from the faith or go back to following laws of the flesh for salvation. They are a disgrace because they rejected the truth.

It has nothing to do with how we are justified before God.

Galatians 5 says the same thing… you who follow the law, fall from grace.

Now I’ll repeat…, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved for these reasons (unforgiveness can send you to hell as well as denying Jesus) but I do believe we are saved by faith, not by anything we do. (that includes baptism and sacraments!)

We ARE called to obey Christ… that is part of being a Christian but it’s santification NOT salvation. Salvation is a once off event that comes after repentance and trust in the saviour.

We are then expected to obey Christ and if we don’t we leave ourselves open to punishment on EARTH but not in eternity.

 

[Matariel]

Now I’ll repeat…, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved for these reasons (unforgiveness can send you to hell as well as denying Jesus) but I do believe we are saved by faith, not by anything we do. (that includes baptism and sacraments!)

One key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim the “water” is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood,” martyrdom for Christ, or through “baptism of desire”, that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Your problem is that you equate Sacraments with works-- they are not. They are God’s unmerited gifts of Grace to us.

 

[myredeemerlives]

I don’t agree that the water symbolises the word of God at all. I believe that the water is talking of our first natural birth, and the spirit is the second spiritual re-birth.

I believe that baptism is an outward manifestation on an inward change, and also the first step in obedience towards our new lives in Christ. I also believe (and felt) God gives spiritual gifts at baptism such as speaking in tongues and whatever it is we need to serve Him. I don’t believe it’s water to just cleanse us from dirt, it’s a symbol and that’s what that scripture is referring to.

Baptism doesn’t cleanse us from sin, only the blood of Christ does that when we repent and trust in Him by faith.