The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

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ajk19 said:
I have already explained my reasons. As for what Church Fathers say, doesn’t mean anything.
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Could you please elaborate on why the Early Church Fathers don’t mean anything? Even Protestants read Biblical commentaries. I would think that the opinion of the Christians closest to the actual events would be a highly important source in aiding people in their interpretations… I’m honestly confused by this. Otherwise, why would I even go to church service to hear a preacher, if not to get an outside opinion to help with my interpretation?
 
ajk19 said:
I don’t think that’s what it means when Christ says this. It basically means anything we do on this earth, really won’t mean much after the fact. Once we’re gone, we’re either in Heaven or Hell regardless of anything we have done here, how much money we’ve made, how big a collection we got of something, etc. None of that can come with us, in the end we leave as we came in, with ourselves, our souls and nothing else.
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well here is a thought. When Christ told his followers that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Most of them left him that day. He didn’t clarify (as he had so many times previously when he spoke in parables) that he was speaking in metaphor. He let them go. He even turned to his disciples and asked them if they wanted to leave him too.

Does this sound like it was another parable? Personally, I’d stop following a guy if he started calling himself a vine or light literally. But Jesus clarifies when he is talking figuratively so people will learn. He didn’t hear, and many left him, and never came back.
 
Delphinus85 said:
well here is a thought. When Christ told his followers that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Most of them left him that day. He didn’t clarify (as he had so many times previously when he spoke in parables) that he was speaking in metaphor. He let them go. He even turned to his disciples and asked them if they wanted to leave him too.

Does this sound like it was another parable? Personally, I’d stop following a guy if he started calling himself a vine or light literally. But Jesus clarifies when he is talking figuratively so people will learn. He didn’t hear, and many left him, and never came back.
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They took the “narrow road”, so to speak… :rolleyes:
 
Delphinus85 said:
well here is a thought. When Christ told his followers that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Most of them left him that day. He didn’t clarify (as he had so many times previously when he spoke in parables) that he was speaking in metaphor. He let them go. He even turned to his disciples and asked them if they wanted to leave him too.

Does this sound like it was another parable? Personally, I’d stop following a guy if he started calling himself a vine or light literally. But Jesus clarifies when he is talking figuratively so people will learn. He didn’t hear, and many left him, and never came back.
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That may be true, except there are other areas of the Bible (like the one I quoted before), that stated the word became flesh, implying that God’s Word or the Bible is the flesh being referred to.
 
Could you please talk about why the Early Church Fathers don’t mean anything? (please see post #301)
 
ajk19 said:
That may be true, except there are other areas of the Bible (like the one I quoted before), that stated the word became flesh, implying that God’s Word or the Bible is the flesh being referred to.
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You do realize that “the Word” is a metaphor for Jesus, not the Bible, right… That’s what John 1 is about! “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”! The Bible isn’t God… Jesus is God!
 
Rolltide said:
Could you please talk about why the Early Church Fathers don’t mean anything? (please see post #301)
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Alright, how’s this? They meant something, but they didn’t. By that I mean anything they taught regarding the Catholic Church, really doesn’t mean much to me, since the Church teaches many things that I don’t feel are correct. As far any thing they taught outside of that (whatever that may be), then perhaps those things did mean something. Fair enough?
 
Rolltide said:
You do realize that “the Word” is a metaphor for Jesus, not the Bible, right… That’s what John 1 is about! “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”! The Bible isn’t God… Jesus is God!
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Never looked at it that way before, in that case you do have a point there it would seem.
 
ajk19 said:
Alright, how’s this? They meant something, but they didn’t. By that I mean anything they taught regarding the Catholic Church, really doesn’t mean much to me, since the Church teaches many things that I don’t feel are correct. As far any thing they taught outside of that (whatever that may be), then perhaps those things did mean something. Fair enough?
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So where did Christianity go from 100 AD to 1500 AD? Was it simply completely absent from the earth? Obviously the Apostles failed in their mission, since they taught everyone wrong. This is the part that I don’t get.
 
I’m not really sure I have an answer for that to be quite honest. I’m a little bit irked really, I feel and have felt very overwhelmed here at times, like I’m just being eaten alive.
 
Ok, fair enough. I can understand how someone might miss that, although it’s very important to the interpretation of the Bible. Before we undertake any other discussion, I would recommend going back and reviewing the full introduction to John in light of that metaphor, and then, from that perspective, take a look at how that changes a lot of other interpretations in the Bible.

John 1:1 is considered SO important for interpreting the Bible that this reading was presented at the end of every single Mass prior to Vatican II. (This was changed in favor of adding a second reading prior to the Gospel, so that Catholics would have more exposure to scripture.)
 
ajk19 said:
I’m not really sure I have an answer for that to be quite honest. I’m a little bit irked really, I feel and have felt very overwhelmed here at times, like I’m just being eaten alive.
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I realize that the discussion is getting heated, and we honestly don’t intend it that way. We’re just passionate. I do realize that you’re also outnumbered about 12 to 1 in the discussion as well, and that would overwhelm anyone. Truthfully, I’m enjoying the discussion. Why don’t we take a breather for the night. You can read the intro to John and come back fresh in the morning… It’s very late where I’m at anyway…
 
Fair enough, I’m probably about to get some sleep myself too (it’s 4:30 here).
 
By the way, interesting side note… The Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the existence of the Trinity. To back up their claims, they refuse to use any other version of the Bible besides the New World Translation. This version was created by a committee of 6 that had no knowledge of Greek whatsoever, save for one, who had taken a single class. The reason I bring this up is because one of the biggest defenses against the JW’s is that they REWROTE John 1:1 to read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was “A” God.”!!! (but NOT the same as God Jehovah; they actually believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.) The purpose of this was to literally translate out one of the most important references to the Trinity in the Bible! Even Protestants use that argument against them…
 
ajk19 said:
We all know about the last supper, and it may be true that the Bible says…“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6: 51 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink” John 6:55 However, this is not meant literally, and here is why: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” John 6: 63 That scripture alone proves that the food and drink Christ spoke of was not meant to mean his body and blood, but rather HIS WORD. It is HIS WORD that gives us life and sustains us, not a little bread wafer and wine.
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You are completely free to believe this. God bless you, but you are spitting in the faces of the eleven Apostles, Paul, each of the Early Church Fathers, the Martyrs, 1,974 years worth of hundreds of millions of orthodox Christians and even Christ Himself. The bible was written by those who kept the Sacred Traditions (i.e. the Eucharist). Where do you think the bible came from? It’s purpose was and is to maintain the Traditions that were handed on from Christ and the apostles to us. The bible attests to those Sacred Traditions. It is worthless otherwise.

Let’s check the logic here: you believe in the One who commanded wind and waves to obey, and they did? You believe in the One who commanded the dead to rise, and they did? You believe in the One who commanded every illness and deformity to be cured, and they were? You believe in the One Who commanded Cepha to walk on water, and he did? Great!

But, you just can’t accept that He commanded bread to become His Body, and wine to become His Blood? If true, IMHO, that’s a weird belief in a powerless savior. :confused: Just what can you believe then, if his words do not mean what they say? What if John 3:3, 3:5 and 3:16 also mean something else? Christ told each parable once. He pounded the Eucharist into their hard heads by repeating Himself over and over. You, my brother in Christ, have been mislead.

May Christ’s peace be with you, and the power of the Holy Spirit illuminate your soul.
 
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