The Eucharist: Real Presence or symbol?

[wisdomseeker]

Yup. His yoke IS easy and his burden light - compared to the Mosaic Law. However, Jesus NEVER preached an easy Gospel and niether does his Catholic Church:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21**)**
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Obeying and being subject to the authority of his Church (Luke 10:6, Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15:18, John 20:21-23)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

Jesus said that the world would hate his Church (John 15-18).
He told us that it would be persecuted (John 15:20)

**This doesn’t **sound like all of the Protestant “denominations”. This sounds like the most hated and persecuted Church around today: His original Catholic Church.

Bottom line: Those who preach an easy Gospel, preach a FALSE Gospel.

Not so easy when we hear Jesus talking about killing another person, hate, adultery, and so forth.

Yeah, i have yet to hear the world bother with any protestant congregations, but i hear a lot about the world attacking the holy father and the Catholic Church. so easy to see, yet many choose not to.

 

[wisdomseeker]

So much for those who claim that the HS is guiding them.

 

[NA77]

Jesus instituted the last supper before His death on the cross. No doubt the disciples of Jesus would not have viewed this as His actual body, because He had not died yet. The concious decision to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, which the disciples did not at the last supper yet understand, is the purpose of the rememberance. Why would it actually have to be His physical body and blood? Jesus shed His blood once and offered it once:
Hebrews 9:12-14
**Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?**

What purpose would actually consuming Christ’s blood accomplish? The purpose of the ceremony of the last supper was to remember Christ’s sacrifice not to repeat His sacrifice.

 

[JonNC]

So much for those who claim that the HS is guiding them.

The very fact that David is here, participating in the discussion, could be evidence that the Holy Spirit is guiding him. I don’t think the Holy Spirit is consulting with any of us regarding His timetable, or how He guides people. Nor are we capable of reading the hearts of others, and how they respond to His guidance.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jesus instituted the last supper before His death on the cross. No doubt the disciples of Jesus would not have viewed this as His actual body, because He had not died yet. The concious decision to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, which the disciples did not at the last supper yet understand, is the purpose of the rememberance. Why would it actually have to be His physical body and blood? Jesus shed His blood once and offered it once:
Hebrews 9:12-14
**Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?**

What purpose would actually consuming Christ’s blood accomplish? The purpose of the ceremony of the last supper was to remember Christ’s sacrifice not to repeat His sacrifice.

To my knowledge, no communion, including the Catholic Church, teaches that the sacrifice is repeated.

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

Still waiting for a definition so we can discuss if the CC is the only one founded by Christ.

It’s really a redundant statement. A church is a community of believers in Jesus Christ. And all of the other churches are not ‘founded by Jesus Christ.’ Eh?

I know from whom to hear the Word, I simply locate a local community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord, whose fruit evidences this confession, and listen to the Word. I then apply logic and reasoning to the Scriptures in order to ensure that the teaching is sound. Simple!

And believe what about Jesus Christ?

 

[wisdomseeker]

The very fact that David is here, participating in the discussion, could be evidence that the Holy Spirit is guiding him. I don’t think the Holy Spirit is consulting with any of us regarding His timetable, or how He guides people. Nor are we capable of reading the hearts of others, and how they respond to His guidance.

Jon

 

[jlhargus]

mark for comment

 

[NA77]

Hello Jon,

Please read the below statement from the Vatican’s website. Please forgive the lengthy quote, but it is directly from the Vatican’s website at:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

Although the language dances around the Eucharist being an entirely new sacrifice no distance is made from the eucharist being another sacrifice. From the text below I think you can see how the scripture’s mention of the one time sacrifice of Jesus is at odds with the Catholic understanding of the last supper.

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

 

[pablope]

Hello Jon,

Please read the below statement from the Vatican’s website. Please forgive the lengthy quote, but it is directly from the Vatican’s website at:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

Although the language dances around the Eucharist being an entirely new sacrifice no distance is made from the eucharist being another sacrifice. From the text below I think you can see how the scripture’s mention of the one time sacrifice of Jesus is at odds with the Catholic understanding of the last supper.

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

Pardon me, and the point you are trying to make?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hello Jon,

Please read the below statement from the Vatican’s website. Please forgive the lengthy quote, but it is directly from the Vatican’s website at:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

Although the language dances around the Eucharist being an entirely new sacrifice no distance is made from the eucharist being another sacrifice. From the text below I think you can see how the scripture’s mention of the one time sacrifice of Jesus is at odds with the Catholic understanding of the last supper.

you mean this?

1330 The memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection. The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

 

[NA77]

To my knowledge, no communion, including the Catholic Church, teaches that the sacrifice is repeated.

Jon

Hello Jon,

My point is that the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the last supper , and more specifically transubstantiation, is a repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not Biblical.

Please see this text:
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross…

God bless

 

[elvisman]

Jesus instituted the last supper before His death on the cross. No doubt the disciples of Jesus would not have viewed this as His actual body, because He had not died yet. The concious decision to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, which the disciples did not at the last supper yet understand, is the purpose of the rememberance. Why would it actually have to be His physical body and blood? Jesus shed His blood once and offered it once:
Hebrews 9:12-14
**Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. **

**13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: **

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What purpose would actually consuming Christ’s blood accomplish? The purpose of the ceremony of the last supper was to remember Christ’s sacrifice not to repeat His sacrifice.

Tell me something - what about the Passover? Did the Jews go through the actual Passover every time they commemorated it? Did the 1st born of Egypt die every year? NO. They ate the Lamb in rembrance of the Passover when death PASSED OVER them in Egypt.

**In the same way, we eat the Lamb of God - not a symbol of it. However, this is the REAL Passover because Jesus is taking us from death in sin to life eternal. The Passover celebration was a precursor to the ULTIMATE Passover in Christ Jesus. The Passover Lamb was the OT type of Christ. NT fulfilments are ALWAYS more perfect and glorious than their OT type - without exception. **

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hello Jon,

My point is that the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the last supper , and more specifically transubstantiation, is a repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not Biblical.

Please see this text:
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross…

God bless

And I ask you if the CC is wrong, who is right? or do you believe that we are all right or all wrong(relativism)? I believe that we have some divergence of teachings, where do we go from here? Jesus said, take it to the Church. which Church do you think we should go to settle this matter?

 

[elvisman]

Hello Jon,

My point is that the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the last supper , and more specifically transubstantiation, is a repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not Biblical.

Please see this text:
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross…

God bless

WRONG.
It is a re-presentation of his ETERNAL sacrifice before the Father on our behalf. Rev. 13:8 tells us that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world, which is supported by 1 Peter 1:19-20.

Jesus died ONCE for our sins and with every Eucharistic celebration we are brought back to Calvary as his sacrifice is re-presented - NOT repeated, because it is ETERNAL.

 

[joe370]

NA77;7666716]Hello Jon,

My point is that the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the last supper , and more specifically transubstantiation, is a repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not Biblical.

So the CC, by supposedly repeating Jesus’ sacrifices over and over everyday, supposedly crucifies (kills) - Christ over and over? It is not a repeat of the one sacrifice. It’s the one sacrifice re-presented, as per the CCC.

Over and over the early church fathers refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice; One example:
the Didache or “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” - is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date; to what sacrifice is the Didache (one of many examples) - referring?

• “On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.’”

 

[joe370]

And I ask you if the CC is wrong, who is right? or do you believe that we are all right or all wrong(relativism)? I believe that we have some divergence of teachings, where do we go from here? Jesus said, take it to the Church. which Church do you think we should go to settle this matter?

I have been asking those questions as well, but no one answers them, other than JonNC. They are impossible questions to ask when a Christian makes scripture alone the Christian only authority.

 

[JonNC]

Hello Jon,

My point is that the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the last supper , and more specifically transubstantiation, is a repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not Biblical.

Please see this text:
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross…

God bless

I will let Catholics speak for themselves here, as people like my friend Elvisman are quite capable of doing so. But in dialogue, Catholoc theologians have confessed with Lutherans the following:

56.Catholic and Lutheran Christians together recognize that in the Eucharist Jesus Christ “is present as the crucified who died for our sins and rose again for our justification, as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world”.42 This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become effective ever anew in the midst of the congregation. There are different interpretations among us regarding the nature and extent of this effectiveness.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

This is the framework under which I understand their term re-presentation, and I believe them.

Jon

 

[DavidY]

Most Catholics DO take vows - Marriage vows.

Holy Orders is on of SEVEN Sacraments. You call THAT a “different” teaching? Apparently, you don’t know your Bible. Read 1 Cor. 12 in it’s entirety and maybe you’ll begin to see that all in the Body of Christ have different functions.
Honestly, Devid - you’re really reaching here . . .

Didn’t even look at the link, did you? It’s about orders of monks…Benedictine and so forth. Taken a vow of poverty lately?

Are these not divisions? Some have a different set of morays and customs, often more rigid. Perhaps they look at the average Catholic like you look at some of these Protestant denominations…

Oh, REALLY? Hmmm . . . let’s take a look at just a few of the many differences among the Protestant sects that are pretty darn essential, I might add:
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe that some were word/faith teaching, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

Not many differences, huh?

And many can be resolved when reason is applied to the scriptures. Others (like predestination) matter little to one’s walk with God. Others still (like eschatological understanding) really don’t matter at all with regard to discipleship.

 

[DavidY]

Yup. His yoke IS easy and his burden light - compared to the Mosaic Law. However, Jesus NEVER preached an easy Gospel and niether does his Catholic Church:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21**)**
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Obeying and being subject to the authority of his Church (Luke 10:6, Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15:18, John 20:21-23)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

Jesus said that the world would hate his Church (John 15-18).
He told us that it would be persecuted (John 15:20)

**This doesn’t **sound like all of the Protestant “denominations”. This sounds like the most hated and persecuted Church around today: His original Catholic Church.

Bottom line: Those who preach an easy Gospel, preach a FALSE Gospel.

I agree with you, actually. An easy gospel is a false gospel. But do you think we should replace the Mosaic law’s restrictive and binding properties with a new law with the same characteristics?

How many good works have I done, is it enough to get into heaven or must I spend a millions years in purgatory? That’s not ‘good news,’ that’s BAD news.