The Eucharist; superstition?

[Catholic90]

The funniest thing is this; Christ handed out bread and said “this is my body”, but your catholic church hands out unleavened…

It is not funny at all. Christ was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples when he instituted the Eucharist and told his disciples to do this in rememberance of him. At the Jewish Passover, UNLEAVENED BREAD is served. So therefore, Jesus handed out UNLEAVENED BREAD. So OF COURSE we Catholics would also use unleavened bread.

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah,

I believe you have life in you because you confess that Jesus is Lord. The Scriptures say that no one can except by the Spirit of God. I think you believe and have not really considered what you believe and why. But hey, to each their own.

Aww, you sound so sweet now! I love my Christ, the lamb and final sacrifice of God, he takes away the sins of the world, he is glorious, his father’s name is glorious, their existence is glorious. I love him, I want him, I need him or else I am nothing, I will have no life in me.

I left my methodist church and I joined a catholic church without any intention of becoming catholic and now I am hopelessly flaoting inbetween protestantism and catholicism… I don’t know what I am any more. Am I protestant or Catholic? Or am I neither? I suppose that I am just a christian searching for Gods real will for me, the chosen church for us, the right church to follow, but how can I know anymore? I feel that the catholic church is right but I just can’t believe all of their strange actions and superstitions in the church.

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[Zundrah]

It is not funny at all. Christ was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples when he instituted the Eucharist and told his disciples to do this in rememberance of him. At the Jewish Passover, UNLEAVENED BREAD is served. So therefore, Jesus handed out UNLEAVENED BREAD. So OF COURSE we Catholics would also use unleavened bread.

Are you sure? Why doesn’t the bible actually say this then?

 

[emhansen6019]

But how do you know that no one actually intended on eating Him? Have you studied the early Church or read any of the writings of the early Church fathers?

St. Ignatius of Antioch was a disicple of the Apostle John (the beloved apostle) and he worked with St. John. He was also the third bishp of Antioch. He wrote several letters about AD 110 to different churches. In one letter, he describes those who reject the Real Presence as heretics:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God…They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again.”

St. Justin Martyr, born near the time of the Apostle John, wrote in a writing to the Emperor of Rome around the year AD 150:

“*We call this food Eucharist; and no one is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…For **not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these;*but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and the Blood of that incarnated Jesus”

Other early Church fathers that testified in writing to the Real Presence include St. Irenaeus and St. Cyril of Jerusalem.

St. Ignatius was personally instructed by St. John the Apostle while St. Justin Martyr and St. Iranaeus had direct contact with St. John’s disciples. These three men are first and second generations disciples of the St. John the Apostle, who wrote the Gospel of John (including John 6). These men are credible. Who else would be in a better position to affirm and testify to whether Jesus was speaking symbolically/figuratively or literally about eating His body and drinking His blood?

The early Church fathers are testimony that the Christian Church believed in the Real Presence from the very beginning.

 

[Catholic90]

Are you sure? Why doesn’t the bible actually say this then?

Say what? That is was unleavened bread? Probably because most Jews KNOW to use unleavened bread for the passover meal (see Exodus where the Passover story originated!)

In the Gospels it clearly stated Jesus was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples. Therefore, logically, it follows that since Jesus was a faithful Jew, he would be following the rules of using unleavened bread. It was at the Last Supper where he instituted the Eucharist. Using unleavened bread.

So it IS in the Bible!

 

[StrawberryJam]

The way I look at it, Jesus was a faithful Jew. So, he would have been using unleveaned bread. However, the eastern rites use leavened bread I think. I also believe some even use this method called intiction ? Where the priest dips the bread into the wine and then drops it gently from a spoon into the mouth of the person partaking. I think this is to re-inforce his risen nature?

Can someone help out here that knows about the eastern rite?

I am sure I don’t have a good grasp of it yet. So, I don’t want to confuse you about something so serious.

Zundra, you will get the answers you are looking for, because you believe.

 

[DebChris]

The Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith.
During Mass, we are nourished first by the Word of God in Scripture. This is the Liturgy of the Word. We are also nourished by Christ himself in the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the second half of the Mass.
It is the Eucharist that unites us to Christ.
CCC1346…the liturgy of the Word and liturgy of the Eucharist together form “one single act of worship”; the Eucharistic table set fro us is the table both of the Word of God and the Body of the Lord.

CCC1368The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself if offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are untied with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

CCC1402 In an ancient prayer the Church acclaims the mystery of the Eucharist. “O sacred banquet in which Christ is received as food, the memory of his Passion is renewed; the soul is filled with grace a a pledge of the life to come is given to us.”…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Zundrah, you are aware that for 1500 years prior to the 'protestant upheaval" the Christian Church taught the Real Presence? Aren’t you? You should be.

It was MEN who suddenly stood up and said, "I don’t care what the Bible says. I don’t care what the Church says. When I read MY Bible, I think that talking about eating a body is superstition. . .therefore, that must have been what Christ taught. "He just let the whole Christian world teach it ‘wrong’ for 1600 years. . .thus also making Himself a liar when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

How DO you explain this? Remember that throughout the history of the Church, heresies and errors were taught and tried to be passed off as truth. . .but always in the end rejected, known to be untrue. Gnosticism, Nestorianism, Arianism. . .even when the vast MAJORITY of the people were swayed into error, there was always the Church, teaching, unwaveringly, the truth. . .the errors would be conquered for a time and then break out again, for as Jesus had His Judas, every generation has ITS Judas. . .but every generation also has Christ.

We’ve had nearly 500 years more or less of people teaching error–but the Church is still teaching truth.

And I’m curious too as to how you reconcile your difficulties with the Eucharist with two of the very first, and historically speaking, largest groups of Protestants. . .Anglicans and Lutherans. Lutherans believe in the Eucharist as being the Body of Christ. . .their terminology is slightly different but their understanding is similar, and certainly they don’t find it symbolic. Many Anglicans likewise believe in some sort of Real Presence.

So, if even the founders of these first Protestant groups still believed the Catholic dogma. . .where do you get off with your Johnny-come-lately ‘private interpretation’ of scripture?

 

[Zundrah]

Say what? That is was unleavened bread? Probably because most Jews KNOW to use unleavened bread for the passover meal (see Exodus where the Passover story originated!)

In the Gospels it clearly stated Jesus was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples. Therefore, logically, it follows that since Jesus was a faithful Jew, he would be following the rules of using unleavened bread. It was at the Last Supper where he instituted the Eucharist. Using unleavened bread.

So it IS in the Bible!

While we are on this subject, would you mind then telling me exactly what Jesus dipped his bread into when he said “the one who will betray me will be the one whom dips their bread with me.” (or something along those lines…)

 

[Zundrah]

The way I look at it, Jesus was a faithful Jew. So, he would have been using unleveaned bread. However, the eastern rites use leavened bread I think. I also believe some even use this method called intiction ? Where the priest dips the bread into the wine and then drops it gently from a spoon into the mouth of the person partaking. I think this is to re-inforce his risen nature?

Can someone help out here that knows about the eastern rite?

I am sure I don’t have a good grasp of it yet. So, I don’t want to confuse you about something so serious.

Strawberry jam, you are amazing, thank you for posting to me!

Zundra, you will get the answers you are looking for, because you believe.

…and so too will you!

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah, you are aware that for 1500 years prior to the 'protestant upheaval" the Christian Church taught the Real Presence? Aren’t you? You should be.

It was MEN who suddenly stood up and said, "I don’t care what the Bible says. I don’t care what the Church says. When I read MY Bible, I think that talking about eating a body is superstition. . .therefore, that must have been what Christ taught. "He just let the whole Christian world teach it ‘wrong’ for 1600 years. . .thus also making Himself a liar when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

How DO you explain this? Remember that throughout the history of the Church, heresies and errors were taught and tried to be passed off as truth. . .but always in the end rejected, known to be untrue. Gnosticism, Nestorianism, Arianism. . .even when the vast MAJORITY of the people were swayed into error, there was always the Church, teaching, unwaveringly, the truth. . .the errors would be conquered for a time and then break out again, for as Jesus had His Judas, every generation has ITS Judas. . .but every generation also has Christ.

We’ve had nearly 500 years more or less of people teaching error–but the Church is still teaching truth.

And I’m curious too as to how you reconcile your difficulties with the Eucharist with two of the very first, and historically speaking, largest groups of Protestants. . .Anglicans and Lutherans. Lutherans believe in the Eucharist as being the Body of Christ. . .their terminology is slightly different but their understanding is similar, and certainly they don’t find it symbolic. Many Anglicans likewise believe in some sort of Real Presence.

So, if even the founders of these first Protestant groups still believed the Catholic dogma. . .where do you get off with your Johnny-come-lately ‘private interpretation’ of scripture?

…John Wesley. Google it.

. .thus also making Himself a liar when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

He didn’t lie, the churches still stand today don’t they?

 

[StrawberryJam]

You are too Zundrah.

Enjoy the weekend friend.

I’ll try to read more about this topic. Thanks for making me think about it.

 

[Zundrah]

The Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith.
During Mass, we are nourished first by the Word of God in Scripture. This is the Liturgy of the Word. We are also nourished by Christ himself in the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the second half of the Mass.
It is the Eucharist that unites us to Christ.
CCC1346…the liturgy of the Word and liturgy of the Eucharist together form “one single act of worship”; the Eucharistic table set fro us is the table both of the Word of God and the Body of the Lord.

CCC1368The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself if offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are untied with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

CCC1402 In an ancient prayer the Church acclaims the mystery of the Eucharist. “O sacred banquet in which Christ is received as food, the memory of his Passion is renewed; the soul is filled with grace a a pledge of the life to come is given to us.”…

I understand all of this but it just isn’t sinking in… I have read endless amounts of literiture about the eucharist.

 

[Catholic90]

While we are on this subject, would you mind then telling me exactly what Jesus dipped his bread into when he said “the one who will betray me will be the one whom dips their bread with me.” (or something along those lines…)

From a website: jewishvoice.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Lets_Celebrate_Passover_Sarah

Motzee Matzah “…you shall eat unleavened bread…” (Ex. 12:15)
Leader distributes the top matzah to all the guests.
All recite: Ba-ruch atah Adonai Elo-hey-nu Mel-ech ha-olam, a-sher kid-sha-nu b’mitz-vo-tav v’tzee-vah-nu, al achi-lat matzah
Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us and has commanded us to eat unleavened bread. Amen.
Maror “…with bitter herbs they shall eat it…” (Ex. 12:8)
Put a bit of horseradish on a piece of matzah, then recite:
Baruch atah Adonai, Eloheynu Melech ha’olam, a’sher kid’shanu b’mitzvo’tav v’tzee-vah-nu, al achilat maror
Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us and has commanded us to eat bitter herbs. Amen.
Charoset The sweet apple mixture… is scooped with the bitter herbs onto a piece of matzah. This is the “second dip.” We are reminded of Yeshua’s reference in John 13:26 to dipping the [unleavened] bread at His Last Supper.

 

[Convert66]

I left my methodist church and I joined a catholic church without any intention of becoming catholic and now I am hopelessly flaoting inbetween protestantism and catholicism… I don’t know what I am any more. Am I protestant or Catholic? Or am I neither? I suppose that I am just a christian searching for Gods real will for me, the chosen church for us, the right church to follow, but how can I know anymore? I feel that the catholic church is right but I just can’t believe all of their strange actions and superstitions in the church.

How do we know, indeed. The question should maybe be, “how badly do we want to know?” Ask God for faith. He will give it. It is His will. It may seem like limbo, confusion and chaos at times, but God is sure.

This is exactly why we have creeds and prayers and the Liturgy. It focuses us on what it is we believe. It instills it into us by sheer repetition. This abiding Truth will lead us, if we are willing to go. Often we are, but then we are not. Then we are again, but only so far. Jesus did say that whoever would follow Him must pick up their Cross daily and follow Him. Where was he going, though? The Crucifixion. Yeah . . we don’t want to go there. But what happens through trials is that what is lacking in us gets pushed to the front of our attention, and Jesus is calling us to grow deeper and closer to Him in our suffering, our questioning and unbelief.

Jesus founded His Church. Which one? If you want to understand the Catholic faith you must exercise your will to seek it out on its own terms and not your own. Set aside your assumptions if only for a moment here and there and look at Catholic doctrine and the reasoning behind it. It is Incarnational, through and through. That word is a good place to start searching. Pray for understanding. Ask for faith from God who gives to all [wo]men liberally. Seek and you will find.

How bad do you want Him? (I suspect I know already, you are just wearied). God bless you richly in all wisdom and understanding in Christ Jesus.

 

[Zundrah]

How do we know, indeed. The question should maybe be, “how badly do we want to know?” Ask God for faith. He will give it. It is His will. It may seem like limbo, confusion and chaos at times, but God is sure.

This is exactly why we have creeds and prayers and the Liturgy. It focuses us on what it is we believe. It instills it into us by sheer repetition. This abiding Truth will lead us, if we are willing to go. Often we are, but then we are not. Then we are again, but only so far. Jesus did say that whoever would follow Him must pick up their Cross daily and follow Him. Where was he going, though? The Crucifixion. Yeah . . we don’t want to go there. But what happens through trials is that what is lacking in us gets pushed to the front of our attention, and Jesus is calling us to grow deeper and closer to Him in our suffering, our questioning and unbelief.

Jesus founded His Church. Which one? If you want to understand the Catholic faith you must exercise your will to seek it out on its own terms and not your own. Set aside your assumptions if only for a moment here and there and look at Catholic doctrine and the reasoning behind it. It is Incarnational, through and through. That word is a good place to start searching. Pray for understanding. Ask for faith from God who gives to all [wo]men liberally. Seek and you will find.

How bad do you want Him? (I suspect I know already, you are just wearied). God bless you richly in all wisdom and understanding in Christ Jesus.

How badly do I want him? I already have him, that’s why it is too hard for me to accept it when someone says to me that I haven’t accepted him fully yet (like taking the Eucharist)…

 

[Zundrah]

From a website: jewishvoice.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Lets_Celebrate_Passover_Sarah

Motzee Matzah “…you shall eat unleavened bread…” (Ex. 12:15)
Leader distributes the top matzah to all the guests.
All recite: Ba-ruch atah Adonai Elo-hey-nu Mel-ech ha-olam, a-sher kid-sha-nu b’mitz-vo-tav v’tzee-vah-nu, al achi-lat matzah
Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us and has commanded us to eat unleavened bread. Amen.
Maror “…with bitter herbs they shall eat it…” (Ex. 12:8)
Put a bit of horseradish on a piece of matzah, then recite:
Baruch atah Adonai, Eloheynu Melech ha’olam, a’sher kid’shanu b’mitzvo’tav v’tzee-vah-nu, al achilat maror
Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us and has commanded us to eat bitter herbs. Amen.
Charoset The sweet apple mixture… is scooped with the bitter herbs onto a piece of matzah. This is the “second dip.” We are reminded of Yeshua’s reference in John 13:26 to dipping the [unleavened] bread at His Last Supper.

Thanks Catholic90.

 

[Zundrah]

Methodist; A member of an evangelical Protestant church founded on the principles of John and Charles Wesley in England in the early 18th century and characterized by active concern with social welfare and public morals.

My conversion was a very, umm, complicated, intense and yet warm one.

 

[Convert66]

Zundrah, think about what you are really saying:

"How badly do I want him? I already have him, that’s why it is too hard for me to accept it when someone says to me that I haven’t accepted him fully yet (like taking the Eucharist)… "

We may as well say, “it is hard for me to accept it when someone says I haven’t accepted Him fully yet (like living with Him in Heaven).”

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (I John 3:2)

He is Infinite. We are not. Of course we must all accept Him fully more and more each day. I did not mean to imply you are lacking in love or comittment to Christ, I simply meant that we all have to pick up our crosses and follow him daily, which means as long as we are here and now, we have more to learn and more to become with His grace.

I am convinced that the Catholic Church has everything possible to help me in my journey to know, to love and to Live Christ better. I have been changed, but I have not been perfected. I have infinite room for improvement, and if He says that partaking of His body, blood, soul and divinity (that is, His human and divine natures in One Person) gives me His Life, then I am there. We all should be.

All my best . . .

 

[juliamajor]

Inthe Synoptics and Paul’s letter when they they talk about the “body” of Christ they use the word “soma”-more ethereal word . In this context the word “sarx” is used which means “flesh” so Jesus is talking literally of His Flesh and Blood. earliest of the church fathers also use the term “flesh” in talking of the Eucharist. There is also extra-biblical evidence of what the early church and Christians believed about the Eucharist via Roman writings.Romans considered the early Chrsitians cannibals because they said they eat the flesh and blood of their god.-the Eucharist-this not a medieval belief but a belief that has been with the church from the beginning.The catholic churches(orthodox, Roman, )the only churches that can link themselves all the way back to Christ both believe in the “real Presence”-why maybe because that is what the apostles taught them? The real problem is that there is really no way around this difficult and maybe’distasteful’ to some , (then and now) point of faith. People walked away then in droves,because it was difficult concept to grasp and apparently it still scares people.You see some things the Lord asks of us(in terms of believing) is beyond human understanding. And if they can’t grasp it becomes a point of unbelief- again too much alike to the response in the Gospel to be a coincidence. so you see people don’t change.
To call the Eucharist a superstition is really insulting- it’s like calling Jesus a liar and a lunatic.