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Zundrah
Guest
Hmm, you want me to bow down to a wafer and treat it like God or something!?
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Z
Zundrah
Guest
No. I wont go on the links.
C
coolduude
Guest
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elts1956
Guest
She started it. Did too.:slapfight:
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Rolltide
Guest
Are you 100% sure though? Even LUTHER didn’t reject the Real Presence, and made it a core belief of the Protestant Lutheran Church!
Ok… let me add a few notes from scripture:
- From the very beginning of Genesis, we see mankind building altars and presenting sacrifices. Often, these were lambs, but sometimes, it included offerings of wheat and wine. This is a powerful foreshadowing and prophecy of the Last Supper and the Eucharist that was to come:
So… the very first offering ever was of a Lamb, and of wheat…
Later, we meet Melchizedek (Gen 14:18-20). What’s interesting here is that he is the first priest ever mentioned in the Bible. Here, we have him serving as a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ. He is a VERY rare combination in the Old Testament… both a priest… AND a king, just like Jesus would be. Melchizedek’s sacrifice was also extremely unique. For the first time in the Old Testament, he offered BREAD AND WINE as his sacrifice, without ANY animals whatsoever. Finally, Melchizedek’s sacrifice ended with a blessing upon Abraham.
So far, there are some VERY interesting similarities to the Last Supper, are there not?
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Zundrah
Guest
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Zundrah
Guest
Because it is a superstition! Because it is a metaphore, this is why! :bible1:
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DebChris
Guest
If you see the Eucharist as merely a wafer, and not as the Bread of Life, then no, it is better that you leave and find another denomination. You and I do not share the same belief. You are not ready to enter the mystery that is Christ present in the Eucharist.
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Zundrah
Guest
Not particulary…
C
coolduude
Guest
Look if you are really considering joining the RCC visit those links. Those are our beliefs and ahem the truth.
You’re belief that this is all a metaphor is dismissed in those links. It might be a little hard to comprehend it at first, but read those links, read the truth.
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mommamia
Guest
Zundrah… don’t think for a second you are the first to have this idea. I have been Catholic since birth, my whole family is Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I personally know very few people who believe that the Eucharist is more than just a metaphor. 
I know some will argue, but I have heard and read so many arguments, and so many books that were guaranteed to show me the truth. None have convinced me yet. Not about this, and not about a few other issues I disagree with the Church on.
I keep hoping someone will show me something to change my mind. I pray, but God seems quite happy with the beliefs I have. I feel a lot of peace now accepting that I cannot force myself to believe something that I just don’t believe to be true. Not believing everything I am told has not hurt my love of God, his creation, and the acknowledgement of all the wonderful things he has done for me, and how deep his love is for me.
I’m not quite sure though why you started this thread. Did you really think you were going to convince people you are right somehow? If you are really looking for the answer, did you ever read any of the links that were given?
I know some will argue, but I have heard and read so many arguments, and so many books that were guaranteed to show me the truth. None have convinced me yet. Not about this, and not about a few other issues I disagree with the Church on.
I keep hoping someone will show me something to change my mind. I pray, but God seems quite happy with the beliefs I have. I feel a lot of peace now accepting that I cannot force myself to believe something that I just don’t believe to be true. Not believing everything I am told has not hurt my love of God, his creation, and the acknowledgement of all the wonderful things he has done for me, and how deep his love is for me.
I’m not quite sure though why you started this thread. Did you really think you were going to convince people you are right somehow? If you are really looking for the answer, did you ever read any of the links that were given?
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Zundrah
Guest
I do not want to “enter the mystery (superstition) that is Christ present in the Eucharist”. …(if only I could say this to my priest)…
I will not leave my catholic church and I will not find another denomination, thank you… I am satisfied with my current chruch. As I said; the eucharist is not important so why should I leave my church?
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Zundrah
Guest
Ahem …it is not the truth.
I have the truth. The truth is christ.
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elts1956
Guest
I bow each and every time I receive the body and blood of Christ. It is my belief. If it is not yours, that is your perogative. No one is forcing your belief system nor are we insulting it.
DebChris gave you a very nice cogent explanation of why we believe it to be true that by receiving the bread and wine at Mass we are actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ and the Graces He offers to us through our receiving it.
And look at your answer to her. You seem to lack two or three essentials that are a necessary part of learning, an open and non judgemental mind. Also an ability to question and receive answers that have been honestly given without being insulting.
I don’t know about anyone else on this thread who is Catholic, but I as being one, greatly resent your minimalization and your insulting attitude of my beliefs.
That’s all I’ve got to say.
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coolduude
Guest
They say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’” They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.
But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense” (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.
“As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.
But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense” (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.
“As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.
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coolduude
Guest
Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).
Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).
Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).
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Zundrah
Guest
It is a metaphore, even some catholics will admit this.Zundrah… don’t think for a second you are the first to have this idea. I have been Catholic since birth, my whole family is Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I personally know very few people who believe that the Eucharist is more than just a metaphor.
I know some will argue, but I have heard and read so many arguments, and so many books that were guaranteed to show me the truth. None have convinced me yet. Not about this, and not about a few other issues I disagree with the Church on.
I keep hoping someone will show me something to change my mind. I pray, but God seems quite happy with the beliefs I have. I feel a lot of peace now accepting that I cannot force myself to believe something that I just don’t believe to be true. Not believing everything I am told has not hurt my love of God, his creation, and the acknowledgement of all the wonderful things he has done for me, and how deep his love is for me.
Why do you say this? I am not trying to convince anyone, I am here because they are not convincing me!
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Rolltide
Guest
Well, let me present two of the very earliest quotes about communion from a historical source. These two passages come from Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius belonged to the FIRST generation of Christians after the Apostles. He was taught Christianity by John himself, the writer of the Gospel and of Revelation. He went on to become a bishop, and was ordained by PETER HIMSELF. So… this is a man who KNEW the opinion of the Apostles on the matter. Here is what he had to say:
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
How would you interpret these passages? Mind you, I’m not holding them up as scripture. I’m simply saying that as a historian, they are NOT forgeries, and are true documents of this person who was a genuine, high-ranking follower and student of the Apostles themselves.
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johngh
Guest
I definitely understand where you are coming from in having difficulty accepting it. It was something I had a lot of difficulty with even after I converted to Catholicism . I mean just the idea of eating someones flesh and blood seems not only absurd but disgusting. It is so far from the norm that your mind tries to revolt against such a seemingly ridiculous belief.
However, if you really read the Bible closely, there is not really much room for interpretation. Jesus said this IS my body, this IS my blood. Not “this represents my body and blood”. And if it was just a metaphor, why would people have fled from him in disgust? To me the Eucharist is quite easily the most difficult thing about the Catholic Faith to accept and to truly understand. But at the same time, it is by far the most important thing about our Faith. After all, without the Eucharist there is no Mass. In many ways the Eucharist IS the Catholic Church. It may be difficult to accept, but it’s the truth.
Based on your responses so far I highly doubt you are willing to actually consider what I am saying, but just incase I am wrong, I would like to point you to this awesome website.
biblechristiansociety.com/download
All of the speeches on the page are amazing (at least all the ones I’ve listened to so far) but the one titled “Marriage and the Eucharist” is probably the best i’ve heard. I actually saw this guy speak in person and he is an amazing apologist. I highly recommend if you are serious about understanding the Eucharist that you listen to his speech. Yes it is almost an hour long, but it’s worth it.
However, if you really read the Bible closely, there is not really much room for interpretation. Jesus said this IS my body, this IS my blood. Not “this represents my body and blood”. And if it was just a metaphor, why would people have fled from him in disgust? To me the Eucharist is quite easily the most difficult thing about the Catholic Faith to accept and to truly understand. But at the same time, it is by far the most important thing about our Faith. After all, without the Eucharist there is no Mass. In many ways the Eucharist IS the Catholic Church. It may be difficult to accept, but it’s the truth.
Based on your responses so far I highly doubt you are willing to actually consider what I am saying, but just incase I am wrong, I would like to point you to this awesome website.
biblechristiansociety.com/download
All of the speeches on the page are amazing (at least all the ones I’ve listened to so far) but the one titled “Marriage and the Eucharist” is probably the best i’ve heard. I actually saw this guy speak in person and he is an amazing apologist. I highly recommend if you are serious about understanding the Eucharist that you listen to his speech. Yes it is almost an hour long, but it’s worth it.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Answer this; will you go to hell if you don’t take the eucharist?
I don’t take the eucharist, so do I not have life in me?
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