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coolduude
Guest
Yes to the first question, no you do not have life in you.
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Zundrah
Guest
Your point is…?
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Zundrah
Guest
Well then, I am off to hell? That’s nice, thank you, thanks alot…
I was never one of those protestants that believed that catholics are going to hell for what they believe, and I never will believe that, no matter what anyone tells me, I will never believe that.
On a very recent post you said that you believed that I do have life in me, so why the sudden change?
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Zundrah
Guest
It is 6:45 am and I have stayed up all night long to be on this thread. I’m so sad that I never got anything from this… I’m sorry Johngh.
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Rolltide
Guest
Some Catholics may believe this, but they are in conflict with one of the most important teachings of the Catholic Church. Just because they believe this doesn’t mean that they are right and the church is wrong on this issue.
It’s a bit like saying that driving drunk is perfectly fine, and that there’s nothing wrong with it at all, and so that’s the belief of the entire US. See, some people will admit it! Now, while some might hold that particular view, I’m sure that the police asking them to walk a straight line, or the jury at their trial might tend to disagree.
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Zundrah
Guest
I missed this post, sorry. I am not insulting you, are you trying that old tactic on me where you say that I am evil for not believing in your faith?
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coolduude
Guest
Ok look I’m sorry that I offended you. I’m just trying to uphold Church teachings the best I can. I’m still young so I have much more to learn in terms of specfic teahings.
I do, however, stick with what I say. The ‘sudden change’ happend, I guess, because I brushed up on my Catholicism.
Thank you for being differnet from the rest when you say you don’t believe Catholics are going to hell, etc.
Again, I want to apologize for any offense I cause you.
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Zundrah
Guest
You are funny at times.I am suddenly thinking though that I may have upset some of you? I hope this is not the case, I have only answered in respect to my beliefs just like you all have too.
Thank the Lord that we have Christ to pay for our terrible sins against his sacrifice and his holy spirit.
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slyboots
Guest
John Wesley in the company of High churchmen
One column is Wesley’s belief…and he believes in the real presence at least.
books.google.com/books?id=x3DuWp9qpAEC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=john+wesley+real+presence&source=bl&ots=Db9qbJ75mu&sig=a_gBbF4esruXnaaCkB4drm2IoR4&hl=en&ei=rwt9SoClOovwMtuFyY4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=john%20wesley%20real%20presence&f=false
“I come to God’s altar with a full persuasion that these words “This is my body” promise me more than a figure; that this holy banquet is not a bare memorial only but may actually convey as many blessings to me as it brings curses on the profane receiver. Indeed in what manner this is done I know not, it is enough for me to admire,” John Wesley
Now on the sacred table laid
Thy flesh becomes our food
Thy life is to our souls conveyed
In sacramental blood.
John Wesley
Perhaps you need to read Wesley closer Zundrah. Even he knew that it was the Body and Blood of Christ and not a wafer and wine/grape juice.
Justin Martyr 150ad
"We call this food Eucharist… For not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation so too as we have been taught the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus.
Irenaeus 140ad
Jesus declared the cup a part of creation to be His own bood from which He causes our blood to flow and the bread, a part of creation He established as HIS OWN BODY, from which He gives increase to our bodies.
Ignatius of Antioch 110ad
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come down to us and see how contrary their opions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the very flesh of our saviour Jesus Christ , flesh which suffered and which the father in His goodness raised up again.
St Cyril of Jerusalem 350ad
He himself therefore having declared and said of the bread, "This is my body, "who will ever doubt? And when He himself affirmed and said “this is my blood”, who can ever hesitate and say it is NOT His blood? Do not therefore regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are according to the master’s declaration, the BODY and the BLOOD of Christ. Even though the senses tell you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting thet you have been deemed worthy of the BODY and BLOOD of Christ.
One column is Wesley’s belief…and he believes in the real presence at least.
books.google.com/books?id=x3DuWp9qpAEC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=john+wesley+real+presence&source=bl&ots=Db9qbJ75mu&sig=a_gBbF4esruXnaaCkB4drm2IoR4&hl=en&ei=rwt9SoClOovwMtuFyY4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=john%20wesley%20real%20presence&f=false
“I come to God’s altar with a full persuasion that these words “This is my body” promise me more than a figure; that this holy banquet is not a bare memorial only but may actually convey as many blessings to me as it brings curses on the profane receiver. Indeed in what manner this is done I know not, it is enough for me to admire,” John Wesley
Now on the sacred table laid
Thy flesh becomes our food
Thy life is to our souls conveyed
In sacramental blood.
John Wesley
Perhaps you need to read Wesley closer Zundrah. Even he knew that it was the Body and Blood of Christ and not a wafer and wine/grape juice.
Justin Martyr 150ad
"We call this food Eucharist… For not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation so too as we have been taught the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus.
Irenaeus 140ad
Jesus declared the cup a part of creation to be His own bood from which He causes our blood to flow and the bread, a part of creation He established as HIS OWN BODY, from which He gives increase to our bodies.
Ignatius of Antioch 110ad
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come down to us and see how contrary their opions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the very flesh of our saviour Jesus Christ , flesh which suffered and which the father in His goodness raised up again.
St Cyril of Jerusalem 350ad
He himself therefore having declared and said of the bread, "This is my body, "who will ever doubt? And when He himself affirmed and said “this is my blood”, who can ever hesitate and say it is NOT His blood? Do not therefore regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are according to the master’s declaration, the BODY and the BLOOD of Christ. Even though the senses tell you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting thet you have been deemed worthy of the BODY and BLOOD of Christ.
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Zundrah
Guest
Please consider it forgotten!
And so you should!
I am probably younger than you though, I am twenty one!
…good for you.
Thank you for being differnet from the rest when you say you don’t believe Catholics are going to hell, etc.
Lol - I am not the worse protestant that you will meet, trust me on that! It’s okay, the same to you, my friend in Christ.Again, I want to apologize for any offense I cause you.
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Zundrah
Guest
My methodist church didn’t teach us about the “real prsence”, but it’s nice to see that you have done your homework!
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Rolltide
Guest
Not necessarily, but it is the living sign of God’s sacrifice for us on earth. In it, we get to be present on Calvary when Christ is crucified. We get a foreshadowing of what heaven will be like and it’s worship, as described in the Book of Revelation. We participate in the fulfillment of the Levitical priesthood, as presented to the Jews in the Old Testament. It is the summit of Christian faith, and almost the entire Bible is geared toward foreshadowing this and predicting it.
**
It is the culmination of God’s sanctification of the world. Just as in the Old Testament, we are renewing the covenant given by God to us. Just as Jews ate the sacrificial lamb on Passover to renew the Old Covenant, we partake in Communion by eating the sacrificial lamb, Jesus Himself, and renewing our NEW Covenant with God.**
So, is it necessary to go to heaven? No, no more than if you’re Jewish that the celebration of Passover is necessary to go to heaven. Is it a hugely important and fundamental part of the faith, however? Yes.
Think of the Catholic Church like this:
The Catholic Church teaches that there is “no salvation outside the Catholic Church”, it does NOT mean that non-Catholics cannot be saved! It means that they might be saved in SPITE of a lack of a certain amount of knowledge. They will be doing the will of God, as passed down through the Bible and proclaimed most fully through the Catholic Church, without even realizing it. It’s akin to this. Imagine the Catholic Church as a 16 year old who goes out and buys a brand new car. They read the entire instruction manual, sign up and take driving lessons, and successfully make it to school. Now, imagine other groups are 16 year olds who go out and buy used cars. They have only partial instruction manuals, or perhaps no instruction manual at all. Some get lessons, but some do not. Now, they may eventually make it safely to school as well, but if school represents the Kingdom of Heaven, which route is the safer choice? If they DO make it to school, it will be by unintentionally following the rules that were in the book they never read and the lessons they never signed up for. (In other words, they were still saved THROUGH the Catholic Church).
Now, think of the Eucharist as a major part of the driving manual that Protestants simply throw away.
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mommamia
Guest
Actually, its nothing like saying drunk driving is fine. Many Catholics believe its a metaphor. The reality is until we meet our maker, none of us really know anything for sure. All religions think they have the truth, the reality is most likely they all have a small portion of the truth. Things like drunk driving are pretty much universally accepted as wrong, not a single issue of any one religion is even close to universally accepted.
Just because some people believe something, doesn’t make it true. I don’t want to read what the Apostles wrote, I want to have what they had. A real personal relationship with my God. One where I follow the words and actions he has put on my heart, and yes even if it means I don’t always agree with the Church in every minute detail.
OTOH just because some disbelieve, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. But we can’t go forcing our beliefs on others.
I asked why you started this thread simply because it didn’t seem as if you really wanted to learn anything. You already had your mind made up. Now, I also already have my mind made up, and don’t expect anyone to change it anytime soon. But I wouldn’t come to this forum and tell the kind folks here “Hey, I don’t agree with your beliefs, now change my closed mind while I don’t bother to read your links to support your position” .
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Zundrah
Guest
…you are trying very hard aren’t you, bless your soul.
This statement however really bothered me! The mormons say the exact same thing about their church! My denomination never made such a crazed claim thoug, that no salvationshall coem to those who do not attend their church!
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Zundrah
Guest
Dont’ bother trying to defend a belief that you have no faith in; the eucharist. You are no different to me.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Catholics in union with the bishop of rome, the pope who is now benedict-
Can not believe it is a metaphor.
Many may, but they do so either knowing they can not, or not knowing they can not.
In any case, I am mixed up as to who you are replying to here.
You quote Rolltide, but then it seems you are addressing Zundrah?
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slyboots
Guest
Baptized in the Methodist church as an infant. Raised for 7 years in a fundamentalist Church of Christ. Spent 20 years in the Episcopal Church. Spent 8 years as a bookstore manager for the Episcopal Church reading, studying and praying. In 1994 our whole family converted to the Catholic Church. My inlaws in Texas converted unbeknowest to everyone else. My husband and I did so quietly so as not to bother the in laws…
Urged by the Holy Spirit we obeyed and found Christ in the Catholic Church.
And the Eucharist is no superstition. Paul believes it, Justin Martyr believes it, irenaus believes it, Ignatius believes it and most of all Jesus Christ said it. “This is my BODY, this is my BLOOD.”
Even Elizabeth I says
" Christ made the Word He spake it
He took the bread and brake it
And what His word did make it
I do believe and take it.
Urged by the Holy Spirit we obeyed and found Christ in the Catholic Church.
And the Eucharist is no superstition. Paul believes it, Justin Martyr believes it, irenaus believes it, Ignatius believes it and most of all Jesus Christ said it. “This is my BODY, this is my BLOOD.”
Even Elizabeth I says
" Christ made the Word He spake it
He took the bread and brake it
And what His word did make it
I do believe and take it.
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Zundrah
Guest
What are you getting at!?
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Rolltide
Guest
I will respectfully disagree with you here. This is not an acceptable teaching of the Catholic Church. Catholics admit that some religions have parts of the truth, but simply that it is found most fully in the Catholic Church. It doesn’t claim to have ALL the answers, but what it knows for sure, it proclaims. It can do this through the protection of the Holy Spirit, something no other religion has. If all religions were equal, why belong to any religion? For example, Hinduism and Catholicism cannot both be right. Their doctrines are simply incompatible. Either one is wrong, or the other is (or perhaps both). Moral relativism is not a virtue, and even secular philosophers like Socrates knew this. In fact, he gave his very life to defend Athens against such views as this.
As a professor, I work very hard not to force my beliefs on others. I present to them the facts and let them try to work out what they believe for themselves. Now that said, if I believe a particular viewpoint is correct, I work very hard to inform them exactly WHY I believe that it is correct. It is no sin to gently lead people by the hand to what I believe to be the truth.
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Zundrah
Guest
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