The Eucharist; superstition?

[slyboots]

Zundrah
You said I had done my homework. Indeed I have. I have spent all of my 56 years of life studying, praying, learning about Christ.
My point was…after all of that it was simple obedience to the urging of the Holy Spirit that brought me home and gave me complete faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Sorry to butt in again after signing off there.

I just want you to know Zundrah, that all this got me to thinking about your faith in Jesus, and your love for others of all faiths, and lack of.

Then I wanted to actually pray for the very first time to God.

It’s after 1:00 am here, but I can go to either a regular morning mass or a vigil mass today.

I would like to go, and this time I want to keep all your heartfelt questions, and feelings about this in my heart while I am there.

I keep thinking, if only I have something in my heart for him to see, he will somehow let me know he is really there.

I know that it is wrong to demand a miracle, but I am not doing that.

I just want to talk to him finally.

Maybe this will help.

 

[elts1956]

Wrong, they didn’t trust what the church was teaching; superstition.

I am, because I found christ, not by a wafer but by his divine grace!

Again, we believe the Sacraments are a way of receiving His Divine Grace, not the only way, but the most important way.

You say superstition, I say Faith. Faith in the core teachings of the Catholic Church, the Sacraments, The Ten Commandments, The Bible, Tradition, tradition, the teachings of the Early Fathers

At the time of the split, the “Church” was in a secular mess, not because of these core beliefs, but because some? many? of the Catholic clergy had become followers of materialism and secularism and had lost their own Faith. Catholic clergy are not infallible as men, they can make mistakes. But if what they teach rings true in matters of faith, dogma and doctrine, with the Magisterium, what they say is true and worthy of belief. Much of what was said and done during the time you speak of was fallible,(superstition), but much was also infallible, however taken in the manner of superstitious beliefs by many uneducated people.

So I say those who saw the debaucle the Church had become, at that time, because of the actions of much of the clergy and their humanistic self serving attitudes, lost Faith in what was true, their faith and belief in the words of Christ. Martin Luther saw much that was wrong with the secular government of the church, not the beliefs, ( read indulgences for one item) and wanted to do something about it. Well, look what happened, the Church ignored him, he went further and further away from the Church’s teachings, because after all, he was human too. And thus the BIG split.

Now, other than personal interpretations, what truths do most of the Prostestant denominations hold? How much of what is believed can be proven in any manner other than personal interpretation? There are many Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran etc.denominations that exist. Many congregations of the same denomination do not agree with the others. I am talking groups, not individuals, because I know many Catholics who do not agree with what the Chruch teaches. We call them Cafeteria Catholics because they pick and choose according to their conscience what they want to believe and what they don’t. Is this Objective truth in action? No, it is a subjective way of reasoning that leads to individual “thinking”, but not necessarily TRUTH.

 

[Rolltide]

…you are trying very hard aren’t you, bless your soul.

Thank you for recognizing this. I’m not trying to be mean spirited or argumentative, and I truly understand why you are having difficulty with this. I’m trying my best to explain our viewpoint, and do so a variety of different ways. Maybe you will comprehend one of them more fully. I promise to be patient.

Maybe, however, instead of just stating that “the Eucharist IS a metaphor”, you could say something like, “I believe it to be a metaphor, and I haven’t yet seen any evidence to convince me otherwise.” The first makes it seem like you’re not here to be convinced or learn, but to simply lecture. The second comes across less hostile, and willing to debate, even if we don’t convince you. Sometimes, it’s difficult to convey emotion properly on boards like this (for ANYONE).

This statement however really bothered me! The mormons say the exact same thing about their church! My denomination never made such a crazed claim thoug, that no salvationshall coem to those who do not attend their church!

I understand this too. It is one of the MOST misunderstood statements in Catholicism. Read the analogy I included below that statement. It does NOT say what you say above. MANY non-Catholics will be saved and go to heaven! That IS possible in Catholicism. For example, the Church has said that it WAS possible for Native Americans before the discovery of America (who had no knowledge of Christianity) to go to heaven. However… they will go to heaven IN SPITE of lacking certain important knowledge about God. It will be because they did their best with the limited information they had, and following what Catholics already believe without even knowing it.

 

[elts1956]

Wrong, they didn’t trust what the church was teaching; superstition.

I am, because I found christ, not by a wafer but by his divine grace!

I missed this post, sorry. I am not insulting you, are you trying that old tactic on me where you say that I am evil for not believing in your faith?

Of course not. I merely said I resent your insults.

 

[Convert66]

Zundrah,

Honestly, what is the point of this? I am not sure if you are drunk, sleepy, on crack or just being obstinate.

Convert66;5542183]Zundrah,

I assure you that playing the “what is the least amount I have to do to avoid hell” game will not lead you closer to Christ, but closer to hell.
Oh right, so I am hell-bound now am I?

Never once did I say that. In fact, I clearly stated the opposite in the post just prior to the one you quoted.

Just because I will not believe catholic superstition, I am now going to hell?

Again, no, and again and again. If you do not believe “catholic superstition” why are you attending a Catholic Church? I do not attend meetings at the Christian Science reading room, because I do not share their beliefs. I do not go to ballet lessons, because I have no wish to dance. “I like MY Church” is not a response. It is a tantrum. If I have scolded you it is because you deserve it. I STILL assure you that playing the game of “what is the least I must do to escape hell” will not lead you closer to Christ, but only so far as to keep you out of hell, which is logically closer to hell. If you do not grasp this, nor anything else I have said it is merely because you do not take the time to think. You react, and assume your reactions to be pure because they are yours.

So this is what you think of all protestants then? You are very gloomy.

No. Just what I think based upon reading your “ideas” on this thread. And I am being generous.

It is true I am gloomy, because the world is gloomy and I, unlike yourself, take these matters with the utmost gravity. It is not a p***ing match for me as it appears to be for you. I actually care about the results, not for my own validation, but for your growth.

Enjoy your argument.

 

[Zundrah]

Sorry to butt in again after signing off there.

I just want you to know Zundrah, that all this got me to thinking about your faith in Jesus, and your love for others of all faiths, and lack of.

Then I wanted to actually pray for the very first time to God.

It’s after 1:00 am here, but I can go to either a regular morning mass or a vigil mass today.

I would like to go, and this time I want to keep all your heartfelt questions, and feelings about this in my heart while I am there.

I keep thinking, if only I have something in my heart for him to see, he will somehow let me know he is really there.

I know that it is wrong to demand a miracle, but I am not doing that.

I just want to talk to him finally.

Maybe this will help.

I’m so proud of you Strawberryjam, you go for it and let me know how you feel please!

 

[elts1956]

Answer this; will you go to hell if you don’t take the eucharist?

I don’t take the eucharist, so do I not have life in me?

God gives His Grace to everyone. However there are better ways to obtain it. Also, there is only ONE Truth.

 

[Zundrah]

Of course not. I merely said I resent your insults.

Please show me where I ever insulted you!

 

[Zundrah]

God gives His Grace to everyone. However there are better ways to obtain it. Also, there is only ONE Truth.

ONE TRUTH; Christ.

 

[DebChris]

Zundrah… don’t think for a second you are the first to have this idea. I have been Catholic since birth, my whole family is Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I personally know very few people who believe that the Eucharist is more than just a metaphor.

I know some will argue, but I have heard and read so many arguments, and so many books that were guaranteed to show me the truth. None have convinced me yet. Not about this, and not about a few other issues I disagree with the Church on.

I keep hoping someone will show me something to change my mind. I pray, but God seems quite happy with the beliefs I have. I feel a lot of peace now accepting that I cannot force myself to believe something that I just don’t believe to be true. Not believing everything I am told has not hurt my love of God, his creation, and the acknowledgement of all the wonderful things he has done for me, and how deep his love is for me.

I’m not quite sure though why you started this thread. Did you really think you were going to convince people you are right somehow? If you are really looking for the answer, did you ever read any of the links that were given?

Questioning is not necessarily a bad thing. How else do we learn? Many of the greatest saints at one point or another questioned certain teachings of the Church.
One day, a Nazarene preacher and I had a discussion about how “God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise.” He had a congregation whose simple faith put both of us to shame.
It would be nice if I could remember where I first heard that Faith is a not a mystery to be solved, but rather to be entered.
I cannot convince you of anything. It is the Holy Spirit who leads men to the truth.

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

The definition of Eucharist is thanksgiving. Our celebration of the Mass is an expression of thanksgiving for the sacrifice of Calvary. This sacrifice is reenacted, not as a play, but as a reality each and every time the Mass is celebrated. The Liturgy of the Eucharist and our belief in the living Presence of Christ appearing as bread and wine is central to Catholic Faith.
When a person converts to Catholicism, he/she makes a statement that he/she believes everything that the Catholic Church teaches. If a person sees the basic teaching of Christ present in the Eucharist as mere superstition, then he/she does not believe and his/her statement would be a falsehood. It would be better to wait until this truth can be accepted before being confirmed in the Faith.
Our “Amen” when we receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Host and Chalice is our affirmation, our saying “I believe” each time we take Communion.
Nobody has said this is an easy teaching. Quite the contrary. It requires Faith, which is a gift. Our “Amen,” our affirmation is a faith response.

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah,

Honestly, what is the point of this? I am not sure if you are drunk, sleepy, on crack or just being obstinate.

Never once did I say that. In fact, I clearly stated the opposite in the post just prior to the one you quoted.

Again, no, and again and again. If you do not believe “catholic superstition” why are you attending a Catholic Church? I do not attend meetings at the Christian Science reading room, because I do not share their beliefs. I do not go to ballet lessons, because I have no wish to dance. “I like MY Church” is not a response. It is a tantrum. If I have scolded you it is because you deserve it. I STILL assure you that playing the game of “what is the least I must do to escape hell” will not lead you closer to Christ, but only so far as to keep you out of hell, which is logically closer to hell. If you do not grasp this, nor anything else I have said it is merely because you do not take the time to think. You react, and assume your reactions to be pure because they are yours.

No. Just what I think based upon reading your “ideas” on this thread. And I am being generous.

It is true I am gloomy, because the world is gloomy and I, unlike yourself, take these matters with the utmost gravity. It is not a p***ing match for me as it appears to be for you. I actually care about the results, not for my own validation, but for your growth.

Enjoy your argument.

…so bitter.

 

[elts1956]

Answer this; will you go to hell if you don’t take the eucharist?

I don’t take the eucharist, so do I not have life in me?

Actually, its nothing like saying drunk driving is fine. Many Catholics believe its a metaphor. The reality is until we meet our maker, none of us really know anything for sure. All religions think they have the truth, the reality is most likely they all have a small portion of the truth. Things like drunk driving are pretty much universally accepted as wrong, not a single issue of any one religion is even close to universally accepted.

Just because some people believe something, doesn’t make it true. I don’t want to read what the Apostles wrote, I want to have what they had. A real personal relationship with my God. One where I follow the words and actions he has put on my heart, and yes even if it means I don’t always agree with the Church in every minute detail.

OTOH just because some disbelieve, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. But we can’t go forcing our beliefs on others.

I asked why you started this thread simply because it didn’t seem as if you really wanted to learn anything. You already had your mind made up. Now, I also already have my mind made up, and don’t expect anyone to change it anytime soon. But I wouldn’t come to this forum and tell the kind folks here “Hey, I don’t agree with your beliefs, now change my closed mind while I don’t bother to read your links to support your position” .

Sounds like you have lost your Faith.

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah,
Honestly, what is the point of this? I am not sure if you are drunk, sleepy, on crack or just being obstinate.

On crack, drunk? I think you have mearly started to play little childish games, I’m going to give you abuse back hoever, I am not as spiteful as you are.

 

[Zundrah]

Sounds like you have lost your Faith.

…you really believe that then?

 

[Zundrah]

Again, we believe the Sacraments are a way of receiving His Divine Grace, not the only way, but the most important way.

You say superstition, I say Faith. Faith in the core teachings of the Catholic Church, the Sacraments, The Ten Commandments, The Bible, Tradition, tradition, the teachings of the Early Fathers

At the time of the split, the “Church” was in a secular mess, not because of these core beliefs, but because some? many? of the Catholic clergy had become followers of materialism and secularism and had lost their own Faith. Catholic clergy are not infallible as men, they can make mistakes. But if what they teach rings true in matters of faith, dogma and doctrine, with the Magisterium, what they say is true and worthy of belief. Much of what was said and done during the time you speak of was fallible,(superstition), but much was also infallible, however taken in the manner of superstitious beliefs by many uneducated people.

So I say those who saw the debaucle the Church had become, at that time, because of the actions of much of the clergy and their humanistic self serving attitudes, lost Faith in what was true, their faith and belief in the words of Christ. Martin Luther saw much that was wrong with the secular government of the church, not the beliefs, ( read indulgences for one item) and wanted to do something about it. Well, look what happened, the Church ignored him, he went further and further away from the Church’s teachings, because after all, he was human too. And thus the BIG split.

Now, other than personal interpretations, what truths do most of the Prostestant denominations hold? How much of what is believed can be proven in any manner other than personal interpretation? There are many Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran etc.denominations that exist. Many congregations of the same denomination do not agree with the others. I am talking groups, not individuals, because I know many Catholics who do not agree with what the Chruch teaches. We call them Cafeteria Catholics because they pick and choose according to their conscience what they want to believe and what they don’t. Is this Objective truth in action? No, it is a subjective way of reasoning that leads to individual “thinking”, but not necessarily TRUTH.

Why do you refer to me by stating Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglican ect? They are completely different to me!

 

[Zundrah]

they did their best with the limited information they had, and following what Catholics already believe without even knowing it.

Limited information that they had!? You seem to have forgotten that they deliberately left the information behind becuase they did not believe in it.

 

[elts1956]

Please show me where I ever insulted you!

You didn’t insult me. You insulted my beliefs. Let’s take Eucharist, one of my most loved beliefs, and print it with a small e. That is insulting.

 

[elts1956]

Please show me where I ever insulted you!

Why do you refer to me by stating Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglican ect? They are completely different to me!

Okay, I’ll add Methodist to claify my point. I did have an etc. after the list.

 

[Rolltide]

Zundra,
Let me ask you this. It sounds like you’re relatively fixed in your position. You claim that it is your opinion, and that we are superstitious. You read the Biblical passage metaphorically, so in order to convince you, we’re going to have to do one of a few things (or most likely, ALL of them, so you have enough evidence…):

1. Use evidence from OTHER places in scripture, since it’s the inspired Word of God. That’s what I began doing with the post about Malchezidech and sacrifices and all that. However, I’d have to go into much more detail, and there’s MUCH more to share. You didn’t seem very convinced so far.
2. Use evidence from history by showing what other early Christians believed that were trained by the Apostles, and their successors. That didn’t seem to impress you much either, but does, in fact, carry a lot of scholarly weight. We could also use evidence from the Romans persecuting the Christians, in that their errors about what Christians believe could only have come about if Christians believed in the REAL Presence, not a symbolic presence.
3. We could try to convince you on some spiritual level, like by encountering Jesus in the Mass, or at Adoration. That’s not likely to work if you don’t believe.

Beyond those three ideas, can YOU think of any other types of information that would help you in understanding the Catholic viewpoint? I’m assuming you’re wanting to be convinced still, or you wouldn’t be here.