The Expectation of the Messiah

[YKohen]

OK. I am absolutely sure there are Jews today that can trace their lineage all the way back to King David through someone other than Jehoiachin aka Coniah? With that said, if the future Messiah/King descending from another line other than Coniah, would in fact be a legitimate descendent to sit on the Throne of David, then what was the whole point…the relevance of God saying the following? I am trying to understand things from your perspective!

Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?
29 O land, land, land,
hear the word of the Lord!
30 This is what the Lord says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for **none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
** or rule anymore in Judah.”

All you have to do is go back a verse and it’s clear:
**28 Is this man Coniah a despised, broken image? Is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into the land which they know not?

29 O land, land, land, hear the word of the LORD.

30 Thus saith the LORD: Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. **
It is specifically talking about Coniah- and no other; HIS seed and no other.

It is NOT talking about all descendants of King David and Solomon.

On that note, I found you an English web site:

davidicdynasty.net/what-the-experts-say.html

davidicdynasty.net/bibliography-2.html

I think the site is a bit lacking, but it’s what I could find in English. There is much more material on descendants of the Davidic line in Hebrew.

 

[YKohen]

If the lineage is always traced through men, shouldn’t the declaration be made through Adam’s seed rather than Eve’s?

True, but G-d was speaking with Eve about her part in the episode; not Adam about his. Eve was the one who had contact with the snake.

 

[YKohen]

I’m not sure if you’re talking about contemporary Jews or Second Temple period Jews, but I should just point out that there was no single, monolithic ‘messianic expectation’ per se during the time of Jesus - contrary to what popular culture implies.

Nor is there today. There are general things that we believe, but the specifics we will only know when it happens.

 

[Augustine3]

True, but G-d was speaking with Eve about her part in the episode; not Adam about his. Eve was the one who had contact with the snake.

Catholics interpret Genesis 3:15 as the first prophecy predicting the coming of the Messiah. Do Jews interpret it this way as well?

 

[joe370]

What’s your point, Joe?!

This passage above comes from Jeremiah I suppose. And it’s true. This is where exile started out, and noone will rule anymore in Judah until the Messiah comes. Which isn’t a problem as the land never really was a kingdom of kings but a kingdom of Priests and Prophets. So it’s all good.

If none of Coniah’s offspring will ever sit on the throne of David, then that ends the line of king David - is my only point. However, you seem to be suggesting that that is irrelevent because there is another present-day line, bypassing the Davidic line of Coniah, that can rightfully trace its lineage all the way back to King David. If that is the case then God, saying the following, seems rather pointless. I am not sure how else to put it… Perhaps I should just leave it alone…

…for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah.”

 

[joe370]

If the lineage is always traced through men, shouldn’t the declaration be made through Adam’s seed rather than Eve’s?

That was (is) what I was thinking…

 

[joe370]

All you have to do is go back a verse and it’s clear:28 Is this man Coniah a despised, broken image? Is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into the land which they know not?

29 O land, land, land, hear the word of the LORD.

30 Thus saith the LORD: Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. It is specifically talking about Coniah- and no other; HIS seed and no other.

It is NOT talking about all descendants of King David and Solomon.

On that note, I found you an English web site:

davidicdynasty.net/what-the-experts-say.html

davidicdynasty.net/bibliography-2.html

I think the site is a bit lacking, but it’s what I could find in English. There is much more material on descendants of the Davidic line in Hebrew.

I think I finally get it. Just Coniah and his sons alone shall not sit on the throne of King David. The biological descendents of Coniah’s sons however, were (are) not excluded? Am I close?

 

[joe370]

True, but G-d was speaking with Eve about her part in the episode; not Adam about his. Eve was the one who had contact with the snake.

In other words: God placed enmity (hatred) between you (Satan) and between the woman (Eve) and between your seed (Satan’s) and between her seed (Eve’s progeny). He (one of Eve’s descendents) will crush your head (Satan’s head) and you will bite his heel."

Kohen - What does Genesis, which is talking about Eve, have to do with Mary?

“And I shall place enmity between you (satan) and between the woman, and between your (satan) seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel.”

Just my opinion, nothing more: If this is a picture of the new Adam and Eve, it seems to make sense. God says to Satan: I shall place enmity between you (Satan) and between the woman, and between your (Satan’s) seed and between her (Mary’s) seed (Jesus). He (Jesus, the Messiah, Son of God) will crush your head, and you will bite his heel." Logically, only God, as opposed to any sinful human could posses the power to crush Satan in my humble opinion. Mere sinful men of renown like Moses, Abraham and king David, the messiah (or a future messiah like David, i.e. not the Son of God) certainly could not!

Let’s assume that I am over-complicating and suggest that it is Eve’s seed, (encompassing all sinners of course) that will ultimately crush the head of Satan i.e. a descendent of Eve?

Sin of course is what separates all of us from God. With that said; Could a descendent of Eve, a mere sinner like Moses, Abraham or king David, crush the head of the might Satan?

 

[YKohen]

Catholics interpret Genesis 3:15 as the first prophecy predicting the coming of the Messiah. Do Jews interpret it this way as well?

No. For us, it’s the plain meaning of the verse. In general, we interpret the Torah according to the plain meaning of the verse, although there are other levels as well.

 

[YKohen]

I think I finally get it. Just Coniah and his sons alone shall not sit on the throne of King David. The biological descendents of Coniah’s sons however, were (are) not excluded? Am I close?

No. Coniah and his descendants are out, but he was only ONE biological descendant of King David.

Take a look at this:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Genealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.svg

After Solomon ruled, Rehoboam ruled. Was he Solomon’s only son? With 700 wives and 300 concubines, he certainly wasn’t. He was the one mentioned in the Bible because he was the ruler after Solomon, and evidently, the others weren’t historically significant. Out of all of Solomon’s wives, the only wife mentioned by name is Naamah.

Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines. They bore him 28 sons and 60 daughters. His sons with Abihail were Jeush, Shemariah, and Zaham. After Abihail he married Maacah, daughter of Absalom, David’s son. His sons with Maacah were Abijah, Attai, Ziza, and Shelomith. The names of his other wives, sons and all his daughters are not given:

2 Chronicles 11

18 And Rehoboam took him a wife, Mahalath the daughter of Jerimoth the son of David, and of Abihail the daughter of Eliab the son of Jesse;

19 and she bore him sons: Jeush, and Shemariah, and Zaham.

20 And after her he took Maacah the daughter of Absalom; and she bore him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith.

21 And Rehoboam loved Maacah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines–for he took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines, and begot twenty and eight sons and threescore daughters.

22 And Rehoboam appointed Abijah the son of Maacah to be chief, even the prince among his brethren; for he was minded to make him king.

And so on with the rest of the Davidic line. Coniah was just ONE small branch- but he had many cousins; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.

The messiah, a biological descendant of David, will come from one of the hundreds or thousands of Coniah’s cousins- not his line.

 

[YKohen]

In other words: God placed enmity (hatred) between you (Satan) and between the woman (Eve) and between your seed (Satan’s) and between her seed (Eve’s progeny). He (one of Eve’s descendents) will crush your head (Satan’s head) and you will bite his heel."

According to the Jewish view, that isn’t the interpretation. The word “Satan” isn’t mentioned here. In fact, it isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Pentateuch.

…Let’s assume that I am over-complicating and suggest that it is Eve’s seed, (encompassing all sinners of course) that will ultimately crush the head of Satan i.e. a descendent of Eve?..

The Jewish view is that while all people sin, they aren’t all considered “sinners”. The concept of “original sin” isn’t part of our theology.

 

[mercytruth]

No. Coniah and his descendants are out, but he was only ONE biological descendant of King David.

Take a look at this:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Genealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.svg

After Solomon ruled, Rehoboam ruled. Was he Solomon’s only son? With 700 wives and 300 concubines, he certainly wasn’t. He was the one mentioned in the Bible because he was the ruler after Solomon, and evidently, the others weren’t historically significant. Out of all of Solomon’s wives, the only wife mentioned by name is Naamah.

Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines. They bore him 28 sons and 60 daughters. His sons with Abihail were Jeush, Shemariah, and Zaham. After Abihail he married Maacah, daughter of Absalom, David’s son. His sons with Maacah were Abijah, Attai, Ziza, and Shelomith. The names of his other wives, sons and all his daughters are not given:

2 Chronicles 11

18 And Rehoboam took him a wife, Mahalath the daughter of Jerimoth the son of David, and of Abihail the daughter of Eliab the son of Jesse;

19 and she bore him sons: Jeush, and Shemariah, and Zaham.

20 And after her he took Maacah the daughter of Absalom; and she bore him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith.

21 And Rehoboam loved Maacah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines–for he took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines, and begot twenty and eight sons and threescore daughters.

22 And Rehoboam appointed Abijah the son of Maacah to be chief, even the prince among his brethren; for he was minded to make him king.

And so on with the rest of the Davidic line. Coniah was just ONE small branch- but he had many cousins; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.

The messiah, a biological descendant of David, will come from one of the hundreds or thousands of Coniah’s cousins- not his line.

Could not the Messiah be a descendant of one of David’s other sons, such as Nathan?

2 Samuel 5:14 and Zechariah 12:12?

 

[joe370]

The messiah, a biological descendant of David, will come from one of the hundreds or thousands of Coniah’s cousins- not his line.

No. Coniah and his descendants are out, but he was only ONE biological descendant of King David.

Well, then God of course knew that a biological descendant of David, would come from one of the hundreds or thousands of Coniah’s cousins, as opposed to his line. If that is the case then God, saying the following, was pointless. They would have thought, regarding the following, so what, the Messiah will simply descend from one of his cousins. Still scratching my head on that one…

O land, land, land,
hear the word of the Lord!
30 This is what the Lord says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah.”

 

[joe370]

According to the Jewish view, that isn’t the interpretation. The word “Satan” isn’t mentioned here. In fact, it isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Pentateuch.

The Jewish view is that while all people sin, they aren’t all considered “sinners”. The concept of “original sin” isn’t part of our theology.

Enmity or hatred between a mere snake and the woman and her seed, or offspring? OK. I’ll leave it alone.

I do not understand the following: “…while all people sin, they aren’t all considered sinners.”

 

[joe370]

Could not the Messiah be a descendant of one of David’s other sons, such as Nathan?

2 Samuel 5:14 and Zechariah 12:12?

Nathan the prophet?

 

[joe370]

Could not the Messiah be a descendant of one of David’s other sons, such as Nathan?

2 Samuel 5:14 and Zechariah 12:12?

2 Samuel 7:11-16 and 1 Chronicles 17:11-15. Are any of the promises below made to one of the other sons:

David’s seed will be the Son of God.

David’s seed will build a house for God’s name.

David’s seed will reign forever from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

Other sons:

Solomon
Absalom
Amnon
Adonijah
Nathan
Daniel
Ibhar
Shobab
Nogah
Shephatiah
Jerimoth
Elishua
Nepheg
Ithream
Eliphelet
Shammua

 

[YKohen]

Could not the Messiah be a descendant of one of David’s other sons, such as Nathan?

2 Samuel 5:14 and Zechariah 12:12?

See 1 Chronicles 22
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

10 He shall build a house for My name; and he shall be to Me for a son, and I will be to him for a father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

 

[YKohen]

Well, then God of course knew that a biological descendant of David, would come from one of the hundreds or thousands of Coniah’s cousins, as opposed to his line. If that is the case then God, saying the following, was pointless. They would have thought, regarding the following, so what, the Messiah will simply descend from one of his cousins. Still scratching my head on that one…

O land, land, land,
hear the word of the Lord!
30 This is what the Lord says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah.”

All it’s saying is that Coniah’s line is out. It’s pretty straightforward.

Coniah’s line is out. His cousins aren’t.

 

[YKohen]

I do not understand the following: “…while all people sin, they aren’t all considered sinners.”

All people do good deeds too. Why don’t you call them “good-deed doers”? You choose the negatives that they do.

We believe that G-d gives man free will to choose good or evil, and in fact, everyone does some of each: The righteous do many more good deeds than bad deeds. The wicked to many more bad deeds than good deeds. Most people are somewhere in the middle, and I would like to think, on the good side.

So why call ALL men “sinners”? Because you have the concept of “original sin”?

As I mentioned, we don’t have that concept.

 

[fatima12]

The children of Eve, i.e. mankind, will hate snakes and kill them when they find them.

There is no mention of Satan.

It’s the simple meaning of the verse.

Dont be ridiculous