The Fall According to Mormonism

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A dicussion about who is right and who is wrong is futile. It is best just to respect the beliefs of the other and move on.
It is clear to me that the historical Christian version of The Fall is biblical and rational, while the 19th century Mormon version is non-biblical and irrational. I can’t put any faith in an irrational argument.

Rational discussion with a Mormon would be futile.
 
I haven’t seen any sunday school in the catholic church for aduts. It is Mass and then home. When do you have sunday school in salt lake? After Mass?? :confused:
Check your parish bulletin, look for Adult Religious Education.
One parish I go to has an Adult RE right after Mass. The one I am going to now is on a Tuesday night.

It isn’t like mormon block schedule where every parish does what is proclaimed by the Vatican to have exactly one hour of sunday school on sunday directly following Mass. Each parish administers their own Adult RE. Your home teachers aren’t going to call you up if you don’t attend. And no one is going to take role.

It is up to you to pay attention to what is going on in the parish and show up if you want to be there.
 
I believe the Gospel of Christ is the good news of saving acts performed by Jesus on our behalf and of his resurrection which we all partake in. Again what do we leave out, or what do you believe the Gospel is?
You are being disengenuous when you leave out ALL that you believe about Christ. He is to you nothing but a man.

What you lack is an understanding that Jesus is God. You do not understand that God the Son is God.

With this understanding the Gospel is much more than your description there.
 
You are being disengenuous when you leave out ALL that you believe about Christ. He is to you nothing but a man.

What you lack is an understanding that Jesus is God. You do not understand that God the Son is God.

With this understanding the Gospel is much more than your description there.
You say there is more to the Gospel than I commented on, could you please tell about this more.

Paul
 
Paul, I think this assertion is highly mistaken, and not just a matter of interpretation either. What Adam did was a *great *sin, and calling it a “transgression” doesn’t somehow lower its gravity. Remember God’s ominous warning to him if he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, “For in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” That’s pretty darn serious, don’t you think? One does not earn spiritual death for some trivial violation. One receives spiritual death from sin and sin only.

Your next question might be, “If they were innocent, would they even know what death meant?” After all, nothing had died yet. But the answer has to be an emphatic “yes,” necessarily so, since it would be sensless to threaten a man with a meaningless penalty. It’s not clear how Adam knew, but it’s reasonably certain that he knew to partake of the fruit was a serious violation of God’s commandment. Whatever he thought death was, he had to know that it was something really bad, and thus to be avoided at all costs. Again, God’s penalty would have been meaningless if Adam didn’t have a good idea what God meant.

And if that’s not sufficient for you, let’s hear what St. Paul says about Adam’s sin:Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned–for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

Romans 5:12-14

So even though sin wasn’t accounted for before the law (which refers to the law of Moses), sin was still sin, and it was in the world from the time of Adam’s first sin. St. Paul tells us that all have sinned (even those up to the time of the law, including Adam). And if you still don’t believe, this will really drive it home:And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgement that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ.*Romans 5:16-17 (emphasis added)*Who was the one person who sinned? Adam. For after one sin refers to which sin? Adam’s. St. Paul makes no distinction here between sinning, trespassing, or transgressing. They’re all three the same thing–sin. So I think we can now safely dismiss this notion that Adam did not sin when he violated God’s commandment.
Are there any LDS out there who still believe Adam’s disobedience was not sin?
 
Are there any LDS out there who still believe Adam’s disobedience was not sin?
I have never argued that the disobedience of Adam was not a sin. Modern LDS scripture identifies it as a transgression and a sin. Transgression and sin are the same thing:

Moses 6:

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

The words “forgiven,” “guilt,” and “sin” all imply sin. Transgression and sin are the same thing.

zerinus
 
Jesus is God.
This order, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, appears to be the scriptural formation of the Godhead.

I accept that you have a traditional basis for your statement, but not a scriptural one, and I don’t see how this qualifies as “the more” which LDS lack. What Jesus did for us, he did for us, the imposition of ones beliefs as the standard by which one is judged whether they believe and have faith in all the essential elements of the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be an incorrect measure.

Paul
 
mormon “apologist” jeff lindsay states it here:
jefflindsay.com/adam.shtml

the gospel principles lesson manual onlie at lds.org states it here:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=077a7befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

LDS scriptures claim it here:

scriptures.lds.org/moses/5/11#11

and here:

scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/22-25#22

so can we please dispense with the subterfuge?

the LDS position is that adam and eve couldn’t have children without eating the fruit and thus would have been disobeying the “higher law” to be fruitful and multiply. LDS doctrine is that the fall of adam was a great achievement that resulted in many blessings that were necessary for all of us.
Are you saying God predestined man to fall to experience the blessing of redemption?
 
This order, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, appears to be the scriptural formation of the Godhead.

I accept that you have a traditional basis for your statement, but not a scriptural one, and I don’t see how this qualifies as “the more” which LDS lack. What Jesus did for us, he did for us, the imposition of ones beliefs as the standard by which one is judged whether they believe and have faith in all the essential elements of the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be an incorrect measure.

Paul
The scriptural form of the Godhead is …Father,Word,Spirit

All of these are one and the selfsame God…

One divine being… existing in three forms… manifested in Flesh as JEsus Christ
 
This order, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, appears to be the scriptural formation of the Godhead.

I accept that you have a traditional basis for your statement, but not a scriptural one, and I don’t see how this qualifies as “the more” which LDS lack. What Jesus did for us, he did for us, the imposition of ones beliefs as the standard by which one is judged whether they believe and have faith in all the essential elements of the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be an incorrect measure.

Paul
The doctrine of the Trinity is scriptural, you just choose to not accept the Truth.

More: in that, when reading the Gospels, the understanding of Who Jesus Is, is much more important and profound. He is God, Incarnate, the Divine made material. God among us, teaching His Truth, as a Person who we understand. Jesus is God revealing Himself to us.

When reading the Gospels the understanding who Who Jesus Is brings a further understanding of what He is talking about. When He tells the Apostles the Father is in me and I am in Him and you are in Me, we understand the incredible meaning of this statement. We understand further that He said this after first teaching the Apostles of the Eucharist, and so we have even a larger understanding that is even more profound. Your understanding of Christ provides no way for you to have an ability to understand the Real Presence in the Eucharist, which is very central.

When reading the Gospels the understanding of Who Jesus Is brings further understanding to His Sacrifice. We understand that Jesus is God Incarnate, a Divine sacrifice, a suffering and redemption for our souls of incredible proportions. Your understanding of God does not enable you to understand even what the redemption is for.

You do not have this understanding and seem to find this understanding to be trivial. The understanding of the Trinity is central to understanding the Gospels, where all of the doctrines of Christ’s Church originate.
 
I looked at this the first time and thought it was about the fall of Mormonism …
 
Good one, Bart.

I am looking for a publisher for my book. It should be very good for RCIA in areas where LDS is a problem. Got it just about done, just a few more routine things to do to it.

Anyone who wants a copy, PM me your e-mail. Of course, I will be selective who I send it to. 😛

I am very interested in getting constructive criticism.
 
I have never argued that the disobedience of Adam was not a sin. Transgression and sin are the same thing:

The words “forgiven,” “guilt,” and “sin” all imply sin. Transgression and sin are the same thing.

zerinus
From Paul G:
Yes of course, disobeying Gods commands does equal sin for all the children of Adam and Eve. As I see it, Adam and Eve where innocent not knowing good or evil. I would say that they transgressed but did not sin. All others from then knowing good from evil could sin, but that first act, I believe, was not a sin.
Paul
Perhaps you and Paul G should get together and discuss it, so that Mormons can present a more consistent view of what the LDS Church teaches on this subject. Paul G says Adam’s disobedience wasn’t a sin. You say that it was a sin. I agree with your conclusion, not his. Now, which one of you is more accurately stating the **official **LDS teaching on this matter? I really want to know.
 
From Paul G:

Perhaps you and Paul G should get together and discuss it, so that Mormons can present a more consistent view of what the LDS Church teaches on this subject. Paul G says Adam’s disobedience wasn’t a sin. You say that it was a sin. I agree with your conclusion, not his. Now, which one of you is more accurately stating the official LDS teaching on this matter? I really want to know.
Mormonism permints diversity of opinion. Neither of us speak “officially” on behalf of the Church. I respect his views, and I am sure he respects mine. It is not, after all, a doctrine that is essential for our salvation.

zerinus
 
Originally Posted by Chris-WA
Paul, I think this assertion is highly mistaken, and not just a matter of interpretation either. What Adam did was a great sin, and calling it a “transgression” doesn’t somehow lower its gravity. Remember God’s ominous warning to him if he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, “For in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” That’s pretty darn serious, don’t you think? One does not earn spiritual death for some trivial violation. One receives spiritual death from sin and sin only.

Your next question might be, “If they were innocent, would they even know what death meant?” After all, nothing had died yet. But the answer has to be an emphatic “yes,” necessarily so, since it would be sensless to threaten a man with a meaningless penalty. It’s not clear how Adam knew, but it’s reasonably certain that he knew to partake of the fruit was a serious violation of God’s commandment. Whatever he thought death was, he had to know that it was something really bad, and thus to be avoided at all costs. Again, God’s penalty would have been meaningless if Adam didn’t have a good idea what God meant.

And if that’s not sufficient for you, let’s hear what St. Paul says about Adam’s sin:
Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned–for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

So even though sin wasn’t accounted for before the law (which refers to the law of Moses), sin was still sin, and it was in the world from the time of Adam’s first sin. St. Paul tells us that all have sinned (even those up to the time of the law, including Adam). And if you still don’t believe, this will really drive it home:
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgement that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:16-17 (emphasis added)
Who was the one person who sinned? Adam. For after one sin refers to which sin? Adam’s. St. Paul makes no distinction here between sinning, trespassing, or transgressing. They’re all three the same thing–sin. So I think we can now safely dismiss this notion that Adam did not sin when he violated God’s commandment.

Are there any LDS out there who still believe Adam’s disobedience was not sin?
I agree that Paul the apostle uses the word transgression and sin interchangeably, but I think he is the only one in scripture that does. Can you point out to me in the Old Testament where the word “sin” is used in connection to Adam and Eves actions? Or perhaps the first place it is used at all?

Paul
 
Mormonism permints diversity of opinion. Neither of us speak “officially” on behalf of the Church. I respect his views, and I am sure he respects mine. It is not, after all, a doctrine that is essential for our salvation.

zerinus
I agree.

Paul
 
The doctrine of the Trinity is scriptural, you just choose to not accept the Truth.

More: in that, when reading the Gospels, the understanding of Who Jesus Is, is much more important and profound. He is God, Incarnate, the Divine made material. God among us, teaching His Truth, as a Person who we understand. Jesus is God revealing Himself to us.

When reading the Gospels the understanding who Who Jesus Is brings a further understanding of what He is talking about. When He tells the Apostles the Father is in me and I am in Him and you are in Me, we understand the incredible meaning of this statement. We understand further that He said this after first teaching the Apostles of the Eucharist, and so we have even a larger understanding that is even more profound. Your understanding of Christ provides no way for you to have an ability to understand the Real Presence in the Eucharist, which is very central.

When reading the Gospels the understanding of Who Jesus Is brings further understanding to His Sacrifice. We understand that Jesus is God Incarnate, a Divine sacrifice, a suffering and redemption for our souls of incredible proportions. Your understanding of God does not enable you to understand even what the redemption is for.

You do not have this understanding and seem to find this understanding to be trivial. The understanding of the Trinity is central to understanding the Gospels, where all of the doctrines of Christ’s Church originate.
What you may understand from the reading of the Gospel narratives is not the same as “the’ Gospel of Jesus Christ. His Birth, His Death, His Resurrection and how these events pertain to our existence is the “Gospel”

Paul
 
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