The Fall of mankind: inevitable part of God’s plan or unexplainable mystery of faith?

[Giovonni]

According to the Catechism, the reason for the first sin is that (CCC 398) “man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God…. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God” but “without God, before God and not in accordance with God”.

My question is, why would pre-fallen man prefer himself to God? It seems Adam, while created very good, was easily susceptible to emotions of fear, mistrust of God’s promise, and possibly pride. God could have left out these traits and desires during his creation and still preserved Adam’s free will. So why didn’t God create a man of strong character who would have resisted temptation (while still preserving his ability to choose)? It seems to me there are two responses:

1. It was God’s divine plan for Adam to fall. Or…
2. It is beyond our ability to understand why Adam was created this way.

The first answer is problematic because it is contrary to the faith. Yet saying we can’t know is challenging, since our understanding of the fall is critical to everything that follows, from free will to salvation.

 

[Abu]

why would pre-fallen man prefer himself to God?
It seems to me there are two responses:

1. It was God’s divine plan for Adam to fall.
   Or…
2. It is beyond our ability to understand why Adam was created this way.

Free-will enabled Adam to act for good or evil.

The devil enticed Adam to evil. Adam failed himself and God, resulting in his downfall. God acted to punish disobedience as forewarned, in His super human being and his descendants. Without punishment from God evil would run riot and thus the obvious examples of Sodom etc. as fair warning. Since the world and everything in it was created for the benefit of mankind, as good, and Adam was given a specific order/warning NOT to commit a specific act, which he disobeyed, losing for his descendants Sanctifying Grace, Integrity, Immortality, Happiness, and Enlightenment – justice, charity and hope were restored in the Redemption by God the Son.

Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, “for as by the disobedience of one man many * were made sinners” (Romans 5:19).
newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm*

 

[MT1926]

My question is, why would pre-fallen man prefer himself to God? It seems Adam, while created very good, was easily susceptible to emotions of fear, mistrust of God’s promise, and possibly pride. God could have left out these traits and desires during his creation and still preserved Adam’s free will. So why didn’t God create a man of strong character who would have resisted temptation (while still preserving his ability to choose)? It seems to me there are two responses:

1. It was God’s divine plan for Adam to fall. Or…
2. It is beyond our ability to understand why Adam was created this way.

The first answer is problematic because it is contrary to the faith. Yet saying we can’t know is challenging, since our understanding of the fall is critical to everything that follows, from free will to salvation.

You said “It seems Adam, while created very good, was easily susceptible to emotions of fear, mistrust of God’s promise, and possibly pride.” The first thought that came to my mind when I read this is that you just described what makes up free will. The choice to be good or evil having emotions of fear or trust, love, pride, etc.

I don’t think for God makes us strong of character and able to resist temptation, I think our growth, maturity and life experiences make us able to resist or not resist temptation. To not give us any choice than to be strong of character takes away our free will.

That is my understanding

Matthew 19:26

 

[Giovonni]

Free-will enabled Adam to act for good or evil.

The devil enticed Adam to evil. Adam failed himself and God, resulting in his downfall.

Thank you for the response. Yes, free-will enabled Adam to act for good or evil, but it was his desires/character which resulted in him choosing disobedience. Why didn’t God create a free-willed Adam with stronger character or less fear or more trust? One who freely chose not to disobey?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

According to the Catechism, the reason for the first sin is that (CCC 398) “man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God…. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God” but “without God, before God and not in accordance with God”.

My question is, why would pre-fallen man prefer himself to God? It seems Adam, while created very good, was easily susceptible to emotions of fear, mistrust of God’s promise, and possibly pride. God could have left out these traits and desires during his creation and still preserved Adam’s free will. So why didn’t God create a man of strong character who would have resisted temptation (while still preserving his ability to choose)? It seems to me there are two responses:

1. It was God’s divine plan for Adam to fall. Or…
2. It is beyond our ability to understand why Adam was created this way.

The first answer is problematic because it is contrary to the faith. Yet saying we can’t know is challenging, since our understanding of the fall is critical to everything that follows, from free will to salvation.

Part of God’s plan.

 

[Giovonni]

You said “It seems Adam, while created very good, was easily susceptible to emotions of fear, mistrust of God’s promise, and possibly pride.” The first thought that came to my mind when I read this is that you just described what makes up free will. The choice to be good or evil having emotions of fear or trust, love, pride, etc.

I don’t think for God makes us strong of character and able to resist temptation, I think our growth, maturity and life experiences make us able to resist or not resist temptation. To not give us any choice than to be strong of character takes away our free will.

That is my understanding

Matthew 19:26

Imagine two possible free-willed Adams. One who loves God so much that he trusts him more than the serpent and another one who doubts God. Both have free will.

Yes, for you and I growth and maturity help us to resist temptation. We are born sinful and full of sinful desire. We experience the hardships of life and we turn to Jesus to lift us up.

So what you seem to be saying is that God makes us weak so that we may grow and mature. Sounds an awful lot like God made weak willed man knowing he would fall and then be lifted up through God’s plan of salvation.

 

[Giovonni]

Part of God’s plan.

Would you say it was God’s intent that Adam fall?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Imagine two possible free-willed Adams. One who loves God so much that he trusts him more than the serpent and another one who doubts God. Both have free will.

Yes, for you and I growth and maturity help us to resist temptation. We are born sinful and full of sinful desire. We experience the hardships of life and we turn to Jesus to lift us up.

So what you seem to be saying is that God makes us weak so that we may grow and mature. Sounds an awful lot like God made weak willed man knowing he would fall and then be lifted up through God’s plan of salvation.

Of course God knew Adam would fall. God lives in timelessness and is omniscient.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Would you say it was God’s intent that Adam fall?

No, I would just say he knew it would happen. He wouldn’t take away Adam’s free will. I guess I would go with something between one and two. God would not deprive Adam of free will, but he knew man would fall.

 

[Abu]

Why didn’t God create a free-willed Adam with stronger character or less fear or more trust? One who freely chose not to disobey?

The reality from Fathers Rumble and Carty:
“618. When our first parents fell victims to an enemy far stronger than themselves, true mercy would have forgiven them.
“Firstly, Adam did not Fall a victim to an enemy far stronger than himself. We are dealing with sin, and sin is an evil choice of a free will. Now, even as God Himself would not coerce the will of Adam in favor of fidelity, so the devil could not coerce the will of Adam in favor of sin. He might tempt, suggest, allure; but he could not touch the will of Adam or Eve. Our first parents remained in control of their own destinies, and they were fully responsible for their choice. Secondly, mercy did grant ultimate forgiveness to them, for Scripture tells us that God drew them from their sin. (Wisd. X., 2.) But mercy itself demanded that this should be only after they had learned humility from consequent miseries. Physical sufferings are secondary when compared with wreckage of character. And if such sufferings contribute to the restoration of character they are not an unmitigated evil. Emotional pity and sentiment often lead human beings to mistake weakness for mercy. Parents who say they are too merciful to punish wrongdoing in their children are not really merciful to their children at all. They are too weak to do their duty; and how cruel they have really been is evident from the miserable and spoiled characters of those children throughout all their later years. There is something in being “cruel in order to be kind”; and God knows what is best for the welfare of human souls, whatever their circumstances.” [My emphases].
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Adam+and+the+Fall&db=2

 

[Giovonni]

No, I would just say he knew it would happen. He wouldn’t take away Adam’s free will. I guess I would go with something between one and two. God would not deprive Adam of free will, but he knew man would fall.

Alright, thank you for the response. So God creates Adam with a character that involved fear, mistrust, and pride, knowing that it would lead to the fall. I suppose my question boils down to, why not make Adam less fearful and mistrusting of God to begin with? Creating him trustful of God doesn’t violate his free will, any more than making him distrustful of God does.

 

[Thom18]

I’m just reading the Bible for the first time (In Leviticus now), but I’ve thought about this a lot. The way I see it, yes, God could have made Adam so he wouldn’t sin, similar to how he made the Pharaoh continuously deny Moses and the Jews their journey to worship Him, and I think they’re events with similar points to be made. In the latter, God wanted the world to know that He was with the Jewish people, and I believe in the former God had a point he wanted to make. Perhaps just to show that we are not puppets and to emphasize our free will? He gives us the choice to sin, and whether or not we do it is entirely up to us, only know that you will not be the only one who suffers because of it.

Sorry, I rambled a bit. I’m trying to piece it together myself.

 

[Giovonni]

The reality from Fathers Rumble and Carty:
“618. When our first parents fell victims to an enemy far stronger than themselves, true mercy would have forgiven them.
“Firstly, Adam did not Fall a victim to an enemy far stronger than himself. We are dealing with sin, and sin is an evil choice of a free will. Now, even as God Himself would not coerce the will of Adam in favor of fidelity, so the devil could not coerce the will of Adam in favor of sin. He might tempt, suggest, allure; but he could not touch the will of Adam or Eve.

It was their created desires and fears which resulted in them to disobeying. Coerced is too strong because it takes away free will. Let’s say heavily influenced…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It was their created desires and fears which resulted in them to disobeying. Coerced is too strong because it takes away free will. Let’s say heavily influenced…

This assertion isn’t supported by the Bible. There is no indication that there was any desire for or fear of the apple. It was Satan who introduced the notion that God was withholding something from them, that feeling was not a part of their initial being. Therefore, they were neither coerced nor heavily influenced by their created nature.

 

[Giovonni]

This assertion isn’t supported by the Bible. There is no indication that there was any desire for or fear of the apple. It was Satan who introduced the notion that God was withholding something from them, that feeling was not a part of their initial being. Therefore, they were neither coerced nor heavily influenced by their created nature.

Per the Catechism of the Church:
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God

398 seems to indicate Adam preferred himself to God. That seems to imply desire towards what the apple represented.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The reality from Fathers Rumble and Carty:
“618. When our first parents fell victims to an enemy far stronger than themselves, true mercy would have forgiven them.
“Firstly, Adam did not Fall a victim to an enemy far stronger than himself. We are dealing with sin, and sin is an evil choice of a free will. Now, even as God Himself would not coerce the will of Adam in favor of fidelity, so the devil could not coerce the will of Adam in favor of sin. He might tempt, suggest, allure; but he could not touch the will of Adam or Eve. Our first parents remained in control of their own destinies, and they were fully responsible for their choice. Secondly, mercy did grant ultimate forgiveness to them, for Scripture tells us that God drew them from their sin. (Wisd. X., 2.) But mercy itself demanded that this should be only after they had learned humility from consequent miseries. Physical sufferings are secondary when compared with wreckage of character. And if such sufferings contribute to the restoration of character they are not an unmitigated evil. Emotional pity and sentiment often lead human beings to mistake weakness for mercy. Parents who say they are too merciful to punish wrongdoing in their children are not really merciful to their children at all. They are too weak to do their duty; and how cruel they have really been is evident from the miserable and spoiled characters of those children throughout all their later years. There is something in being “cruel in order to be kind”; and God knows what is best for the welfare of human souls, whatever their circumstances.” [My emphases].
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Adam+and+the+Fall&db=2

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Per the Catechism of the Church:
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God

398 seems to indicate Adam preferred himself to God. That seems to imply desire towards what the apple represented.

True, but it’s a non-sequitur to infer that that desire was inherent in their initial makeup. Had Satan never intervened, there’s no reason to think that they would have eventually eaten the apple.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Alright, thank you for the response. So God creates Adam with a character that involved fear, mistrust, and pride, knowing that it would lead to the fall. I suppose my question boils down to, why not make Adam less fearful and mistrusting of God to begin with? Creating him trustful of God doesn’t violate his free will, any more than making him distrustful of God does.

I wouldn’t say God created Adam with a character that involved fear, mistrust, and pride. He created with free will. Had he created a man he knew could not sin, could not make the wrong choice, he would have deprived Adam of free will. However, God is omniscient, so he knew Adam would fall. It’s beyond our understanding because we cannot know what it is like to live in timelessness.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

True, but it’s a non-sequitur to infer that that desire was inherent in their initial makeup. Had Satan never intervened, there’s no reason to think that they would have eventually eaten the apple.

I do not know, of course but I think they would have. Their sin was pride. They wanted to be like God and know what God knows.

 

[Giovonni]

True, but it’s a non-sequitur to infer that that desire was inherent in their initial makeup. Had Satan never intervened, there’s no reason to think that they would have eventually eaten the apple.

Two points here… One, I think the bible shows they do have desires:
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom,

So they knew death was bad and they desired wisdom. It doesn’t say this desire was introduced to them by Satan. It is implicit they had these desires as part of their character.

Secondly, God is Omniscient so he knew Satan would intervene.