The Fall of mankind: inevitable part of God’s plan or unexplainable mystery of faith?

[Lily_Bernans]

I’m just reading the Bible for the first time (In Leviticus now), but I’ve thought about this a lot. The way I see it, yes, God could have made Adam so he wouldn’t sin, similar to how he made the Pharaoh continuously deny Moses and the Jews their journey to worship Him, and I think they’re events with similar points to be made. In the latter, God wanted the world to know that He was with the Jewish people, and I believe in the former God had a point he wanted to make. Perhaps just to show that we are not puppets and to emphasize our free will? He gives us the choice to sin, and whether or not we do it is entirely up to us, only know that you will not be the only one who suffers because of it.

Sorry, I rambled a bit. I’m trying to piece it together myself.

Believe me, you are not rambling. Welcome to the forum, and please know that your opinions are valued here.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Per the Catechism of the Church:
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God

398 seems to indicate Adam preferred himself to God. That seems to imply desire towards what the apple represented.

I think Adam and Eve did prefer themselves over God at that point.

 

[Giovonni]

I wouldn’t say God created Adam with a character that involved fear, mistrust, and pride. He created with free will. Had he created a man he knew could not sin, could not make the wrong choice, he would have deprived Adam of free will. However, God is omniscient, so he knew Adam would fall. It’s beyond our understanding because we cannot know what it is like to live in timelessness.

God could have created man who could sin, but didn’t sin because he had the character which allowed him to discern that Satan was not to be trusted.

If it is beyond our understanding, then it seems my second option in the original post would be correct.

 

[Giovonni]

I’m just reading the Bible for the first time (In Leviticus now), but I’ve thought about this a lot. The way I see it, yes, God could have made Adam so he wouldn’t sin, similar to how he made the Pharaoh continuously deny Moses and the Jews their journey to worship Him, and I think they’re events with similar points to be made. In the latter, God wanted the world to know that He was with the Jewish people, and I believe in the former God had a point he wanted to make. Perhaps just to show that we are not puppets and to emphasize our free will? He gives us the choice to sin, and whether or not we do it is entirely up to us, only know that you will not be the only one who suffers because of it.

Sorry, I rambled a bit. I’m trying to piece it together myself.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Giovonni]

I think Adam and Eve did prefer themselves over God at that point.

So they were initially Prideful, which sort of brings us full circle.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Two points here… One, I think the bible shows they do have desires:
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom,

So they knew death was bad and they desired wisdom. It doesn’t say this desire was introduced to them by Satan. It is implicit they had these desires as part of their character.

Secondly, God is Omniscient so he knew Satan would intervene.

I think the difference in what we’re saying is that you’re saying this desire was inherent in their nature, where as I’m saying that it was a potential in their nature. It might seem to be a small difference, but it’s a very important one.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

God could have created man who could sin, but didn’t sin because he had the character which allowed him to discern that Satan was not to be trusted.

If it is beyond our understanding, then it seems my second option in the original post would be correct.

Don’t you think that would be taking away our free will? I do.

I do think it’s all part of God’s plan for humanity, but I believe that plan is beyond our understanding right now.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

So they were initially Prideful, which sort of brings us full circle.

I think they had the potential to let pride overtake them, and ultimately, of course, with a little coaxing, it did.

 

[Giovonni]

I think the difference in what we’re saying is that you’re saying this desire was inherent in their nature, where as I’m saying that it was a potential in their nature. It might seem to be a small difference, but it’s a very important one.

Fair point. So lets say they initially had no pride, but then developed pride. I’m not sure someone completely innocent develops pride unless from an outside influence. Which would be Satan. So are you saying Satan made them proud?

 

[MT1926]

Imagine two possible free-willed Adams. One who loves God so much that he trusts him more than the serpent and another one who doubts God. Both have free will.

Yes, for you and I growth and maturity help us to resist temptation. We are born sinful and full of sinful desire. We experience the hardships of life and we turn to Jesus to lift us up.

So what you seem to be saying is that God makes us weak so that we may grow and mature. Sounds an awful lot like God made weak willed man knowing he would fall and then be lifted up through God’s plan of salvation.

I know this isn’t what you mean but of course God makes us weak we are babies how much weaker can we be.

To take this a different direction your question makes it sound like God created Adam, the next day Eve, the third day they ate the fruit and day 4 gone. What a wimp couldn’t even last a week.

Some questions: If you take this into perspective it might help.
How long were Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall?

Personally, I don’t think we can figure it out. Now Genesis 5 says Adam was 130 when he became the father of Seth. Now I would argue what does this mean? Is it 130 years on earth? Does this include the garden or is it 130 years after the garden? Wait a minute how old was Adam when he was created? In my opinion, which others are free to disagree with or correct me from the bible, I would be willing to believe since they were immortal before the fall time had no meaning in the garden. Therefore, Adam and Eve could have been in the garden for millions of years prior to the fall.

But lets not even go there. Let’s use Genesis 5 that confirms Adam was 130 when he became the father of Seth. Now we know Cain and Able were before Seth and Able was killed before Seth was Born. Now Genesis 5 says:21 When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he became the father of Methu′selah. So lets assume Adam was 65 when Cain was born the youngest a man was stated to be when he became a father in Genesis. Since my first daughter was born one week prior to my first wedding anniversary I would think it might be safe to assume Adam and Eve were 64 at the fall. So basically depending on how old they were when created I think we can say they might have been in the garden for 40 to 50 years prior to the fall.

40 to 50 years with one woops kind of makes me rethink the “weak/no will power theory”.

Matthew 19:26

 

[Giovonni]

Don’t you think that would be taking away our free will? I do.

I do think it’s all part of God’s plan for humanity, but I believe that plan is beyond our understanding right now.

I don’t think imbuing someone with a sense of trust or love for God takes away free will. Not at all.

It’s as if you’re saying, the way we know we have free will is because we chose sin. I don’t find that to be a true statement.

 

[Giovonni]

I know this isn’t what you mean but of course God makes us weak we are babies how much weaker can we be.

To take this a different direction your question makes it sound like God created Adam, the next day Eve, the third day they ate the fruit and day 4 gone. What a wimp couldn’t even last a week.

Some questions: If you take this into perspective it might help.
How long were Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall?

Personally, I don’t think we can figure it out. Now Genesis 5 says Adam was 130 when he became the father of Seth. Now I would argue what does this mean? Is it 130 years on earth? Does this include the garden or is it 130 years after the garden? Wait a minute how old was Adam when he was created? In my opinion, which others are free to disagree with or correct me from the bible, I would be willing to believe since they were immortal before the fall time had no meaning in the garden. Therefore, Adam and Eve could have been in the garden for millions of years prior to the fall.

But lets not even go there. Let’s use Genesis 5 that confirms Adam was 130 when he became the father of Seth. Now we know Cain and Able were before Seth and Able was killed before Seth was Born. Now Genesis 5 says:21 When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he became the father of Methu′selah. So lets assume Adam was 65 when Cain was born the youngest a man was stated to be when he became a father in Genesis. Since my first daughter was born one week prior to my first wedding anniversary I would think it might be safe to assume Adam and Eve were 64 at the fall. So basically depending on how old they were when created I think we can say they might have been in the garden for 40 to 50 years prior to the fall.

40 to 50 years with one woops kind of makes me rethink the “weak/no will power theory”.

Matthew 19:26

That’s a pretty big whoops. And 50 years for them at the time would’ve been a drop in the pond considering they had eternity. Seems like they tripped right out of the gate.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I don’t think imbuing someone with a sense of trust or love for God takes away free will. Not at all.

Well, let’s say you meet a woman you like and she likes you because she really can’t like anyone but you. That kind of negates free will, doesn’t it? Would you even want a woman like that? I would not want a man like that. I believe God wants us to come to him freely, out of love, not because we can’t resist.

 

[Neofight]

The devil enticed Adam to evil.

Mankind, not specifically Adam, was enticed by Satan…actually it was Eve and not Adam who was enticed by Satan…Genesis 3 shows us Eve gave the fruit to Adam, without Adam communicating directly with Satan.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That’s a pretty big whoops. And 50 years for them at the time would’ve been a drop in the pond considering they had eternity. Seems like they tripped right out of the gate.

But Genesis isn’t to be taken literally.

 

[Giovonni]

Well, let’s say you meet a woman you like and she likes you because she really can’t like anyone but you. That kind of negates free will, doesn’t it? Would you even want a woman like that? I would not want a man like that. I believe God wants us to come to him freely, out of love, not because we can’t resist.

This is a false analogy. We aren’t saying Adam has to obey, only that he will obey. Its a small distinction but an important one.

And btw… I love that my wife is irresistibly attracted to me. But she is still free to do whatever she wants.

 

[Giovonni]

Mankind, not specifically Adam, was enticed by Satan…actually it was Eve and not Adam who was enticed by Satan…Genesis 3 shows us Eve gave the fruit to Adam, without Adam communicating directly with Satan.

Some people think Adam was with Eve the whole time which means they were both enticed.

 

[Giovonni]

But Genesis isn’t to be taken literally.

I was going with his comment for the sake of argument.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This is a false analogy. We aren’t saying Adam has to obey, only that he will obey. Its a small distinction but an important one.

And btw… I love that my wife is irresistibly attracted to me. But she is still free to do whatever she wants.

To me, creating a man you know will obey is the same thing as creating one who must obey if he can’t do differently. It’s like God saying, “II will create a man who will love and obey me no matter what even though, should he want to disobey, he can. Though he won’t.” To me, that takes free will out of the equation.

Not trying to argue with you, just understand.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Some people think Adam was with Eve the whole time which means they were both enticed.

I wasn’t there, LOL, but I believe Satan tempted Eve and Eve tempted Adam.