The Fall of mankind: inevitable part of God’s plan or unexplainable mystery of faith?

[fisherman_carl]

I understand what all of you are saying, it’s just hard when I read about elementary school girls in Africa being kidnapped by Boko Haram and sold into slavery or some other atrocity. I do believe God has a plan, but when those things happen, it’s hard to believe he always has our best interests at heart. Still, I do have faith that all will be put right in the end.

I don’t think God wants the atrocities to happen, but why he allows them, what good can come of them, especially for the victims, it’s just hard.

And the joke with the pies was funny! Thanks!

Yes, it is sometimes difficult to trust in God’s providence in the face of suffering and huge evils. What I find comforting is in the words of Jesus in the Mel Gibson movie, when Jesus was carrying his cross, he said “Behold, I make all things new.” Taken from Revelations.

Jesus suffered with us and for us, and he will wipe away every tear.

youtu.be/-oagv9-fWpM

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes, it is sometimes difficult to trust in God’s providence in the face of suffering and huge evils. What I find comforting is in the words of Jesus in the Mel Gibson movie, when Jesus was carrying his cross, he said “Behold, I make all things new.” Taken from Revelations.

Jesus suffered with us and for us, and he will wipe away every tear.

youtu.be/-oagv9-fWpM

Yes, I do believe that.

 

[OneSheep]

I understand what all of you are saying, it’s just hard when I read about elementary school girls in Africa being kidnapped by Boko Haram and sold into slavery or some other atrocity. I do believe God has a plan, but when those things happen, it’s hard to believe he always has our best interests at heart. Still, I do have faith that all will be put right in the end.

I don’t think God wants the atrocities to happen, but why he allows them, what good can come of them, especially for the victims, it’s just hard.

And the joke with the pies was funny! Thanks!

No good can come from these atrocities unless people of faith make it happen. God put us in charge of our own destiny. Our destiny will be secure in complete happiness in heaven if we choose to love God and neighbor.

I think David is spot-on, and we can extend “heaven” to “the Kingdom”, specifically Earth. As we choose to love the people of Boko Haram, starting with understanding and forgiving them (for they know not what they do), we are co-creators of the Kingdom. “Our destiny will be secure” in happiness on Earth when we choose to love God and neighbor. This is “on Earth as it is in heaven”.

When we forgive, we make manifest in what we have faith, we make it “all right in the end”. We can have hope because forgiveness happens, and it starts with those who follow the Gospel. We reap what we sow.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think David is spot-on, and we can extend “heaven” to “the Kingdom”, specifically Earth. As we choose to love the people of Boko Haram, starting with understanding and forgiving them (for they know not what they do), we are co-creators of the Kingdom. “Our destiny will be secure” in happiness on Earth when we choose to love God and neighbor. This is “on Earth as it is in heaven”.

When we forgive, we make manifest in what we have faith, we make it “all right in the end”. We can have hope because forgiveness happens, and it starts with those who follow the Gospel. We reap what we sow.

That’s true of course. I just find it so difficult to understand. One of my favorite college professors would always say “God does what is most fitting for us.” Okay. But it’s hard to believe how being kidnapped and sold into slavery is “most fitting” for so many young girls. My heart just breaks for them. It’s not that I don’t trust God. I do. It’s that I love the girls to whom Boko Haram has brought harm.

I’m not arguing with you! Not at all. Just pointing out that some things are so hard for me to accept. And I do realize that man, not God, is the author of sin. And I do think my professor was talking about the “big picture” when he spoke of “most fitting.” But how would one explain God’s love and mercy to an innocent ten-year-old kidnapped from a loving home and parents and sold into slavery?

 

[fisherman_carl]

But how would one explain God’s love and mercy to an innocent ten-year-old kidnapped from a loving home and parents and sold into slavery?

By rescuing them.

 

[fisherman_carl]

"Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” ( Ps 82:3-4)

 

[OneSheep]

That’s true of course. I just find it so difficult to understand. One of my favorite college professors would always say “God does what is most fitting for us.” Okay. But it’s hard to believe how being kidnapped and sold into slavery is “most fitting” for so many young girls. My heart just breaks for them. It’s not that I don’t trust God. I do. It’s that I love the girls to whom Boko Haram has brought harm.

I’m not arguing with you! Not at all. Just pointing out that some things are so hard for me to accept. And I do realize that man, not God, is the author of sin. And I do think my professor was talking about the “big picture” when he spoke of “most fitting.” But how would one explain God’s love and mercy to an innocent ten-year-old kidnapped from a loving home and parents and sold into slavery?

An elaboration on Carl (whose answer was excellent).

Little Girl: Why is this “most fitting” for me?

OneSheep: It is not most fitting for you. What is most fitting for you is to be with you family as a free person. God loves you and wants the very best for you.

Little Girl: Why then, does God let these people do this all bad stuff?

OneSheep: Because God gave us free will, and He does not impose himself on us.

Little Girl: But I prayed! I asked God to take me away from these mean people!

OneSheep: And God called me to be here to help you get out of this mess. Let’s get started!

Well, it doesn’t solve the mystery, because there is this one question that remains unanswered if I boil everything down. That question begins with “Why are humans born ignorant?” Why can’t we all just have an “infused knowledge”?
A: We are experiencing an infused knowledge, all wisdom comes from God.
Me: Okay then, why does the infusion have to happen so blasted slowly?
A: ?

I have no idea.

BTW: I know, you aren’t arguing, but we can have really great discussions and simply disagree, and those disagreements will most likely be because of a differing set of definitions and experiences, right? And those differences are to be respected, even cherished. My son always wants to agree on everything, but I know that some of the experiences behind our opinions are not even accessible, so we have to give it a rest for awhile knowing that some answer is sure to surface. In the mean time, it’s all good!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

An elaboration on Carl (whose answer was excellent).

Little Girl: Why is this “most fitting” for me?

OneSheep: It is not most fitting for you. What is most fitting for you is to be with you family as a free person. God loves you and wants the very best for you.

Little Girl: Why then, does God let these people do this all bad stuff?

OneSheep: Because God gave us free will, and He does not impose himself on us.

Little Girl: But I prayed! I asked God to take me away from these mean people!

OneSheep: And God called me to be here to help you get out of this mess. Let’s get started!

Well, it doesn’t solve the mystery, because there is this one question that remains unanswered if I boil everything down. That question begins with “Why are humans born ignorant?” Why can’t we all just have an “infused knowledge”?
A: We are experiencing an infused knowledge, all wisdom comes from God.
Me: Okay then, why does the infusion have to happen so blasted slowly?
A: ?

I have no idea.

BTW: I know, you aren’t arguing, but we can have really great discussions and simply disagree, and those disagreements will most likely be because of a differing set of definitions and experiences, right? And those differences are to be respected, even cherished. My son always wants to agree on everything, but I know that some of the experiences behind our opinions are not even accessible, so we have to give it a rest for awhile knowing that some answer is sure to surface. In the mean time, it’s all good!

One problem is: we can’t rescue those girls. And why them and not me? What did they do that they became kidnap/slavery victims and I grew up in the safety and security of a Carmelite cloister? I don’t know the answers. I just wish people wouldn’t be so apathetic to the problems of the suffering. It seems, for many, if it doesn’t affect them, they don’t care. And I’m not jaded or pessimistic, either. At least I never thought so.

Yes, I greatly respect differences of thought as long as people are polite, and this seems to be a very polite thread.

 

[MT1926]

One problem is: we can’t rescue those girls. And why them and not me? What did they do that they became kidnap/slavery victims and I grew up in the safety and security of a Carmelite cloister? I don’t know the answers. I just wish people wouldn’t be so apathetic to the problems of the suffering. It seems, for many, if it doesn’t affect them, they don’t care. And I’m not jaded or pessimistic, either. At least I never thought so.

Yes, I greatly respect differences of thought as long as people are polite, and this seems to be a very polite thread.

I can agree with you and I do feel your pain when you say “we can’t rescue those girls”. Just typing it brings a tear to my eye. Yes there is a lot of apathy in the world but it is not for us to judge, God will be their judge. We can’t always know if that person truly doesn’t care or if they are so hurt by the sight of this atrocity that they are unable to even face the sight of it.

“What did they do” is a difficult question, that will most likely remain unanswered in our lifetime. When I read it I was reminded of a response I heard to the question of evil. Back to the free will response, it is not just the free will of the men that took them, but also the free will of the little girls fathers and their fathers and the fathers of the fathers of the men that took them. As well as the fathers of men who might of been able to stop this when it first began. The list goes on and on. It starts to become mind blowing. However, this thought makes me think and appreciate what I have in my life. It makes me think about the type of person God wants me to be. I am constantly reminded of all the gifts and abilities he has given me. I try to think of this all of the time, because the decisions I make today can have consequences on my life as well as the lives of my great, great, great, great … grandchildren who might not be born for another 100 years.

I think that all we can do some times is pray and trust in God’s plan. God has given me many great gifts and abilities and I have seen the holy spirit working in my life many times. Yet trusting in his plan and giving it up to God is probably what I struggle with most. This is what puts me in the later group, I find it very difficult to face the things that I cannot fix.

God Bless,

Matthew 19:26

 

[OneSheep]

One problem is: we can’t rescue those girls.

Well, every little bit helps:

usccb.org/about/anti-trafficking-program/coalition-of-catholic-organizations-against-human-trafficking.cfm

slaverynomore.org/organizations/

And why them and not me? What did they do that they became kidnap/slavery victims and I grew up in the safety and security of a Carmelite cloister? I don’t know the answers. I just wish people wouldn’t be so apathetic to the problems of the suffering. It seems, for many, if it doesn’t affect them, they don’t care. And I’m not jaded or pessimistic, either. At least I never thought so.

Wow, those are some tough questions. What I have been focusing on lately in my reading is the healing of losses. We so often think of grieving associated with death, but there are so many other times to grieve. You obviously care a great deal about the suffering victims, and their loss is your loss. When I think about it, one of the worst answers might be “you should just be thankful for what you have”. Such an answer shuts down or pushes away the process of grieving, which is more like admitting our sadness, anger (i.e. toward the perpetrators or the apathetic), and other feelings such as guilt (I should have done more to stop this!), working through the grief rather than pushing it away.

Other answers that well-meaning people around us may give, but do not address the real need to grieve:

“Here, donate money and you will feel better”. (Did I just do that above? If so, inadvertently)
“Just get over it.”

It seems a little ridiculous for me to be writing this to someone involved with hospice, because you know all of this, but we cannot take for granted that readers do. What else do you have to offer about the grieving process and its application? Do hospice workers tend to ignore their own “minor” grieving because they are dealing with such “bigger” problems?

As far as people caring, it serves us all to be a bit desensitized, or everything would be a bit overwhelming, as we discussed earlier. Also, it is a human reality that our care rarely extends to people in the “outgroup”, so there is that going on too. Every case of apathy is a different case. And perhaps when we complain or seem “jaded and pessimistic” it is all part of the grieving process, and I suppose acknowledging that may change our outlook from one of self-judging to one of self-nurturing.

Yes, I greatly respect differences of thought as long as people are polite, and this seems to be a very polite thread.

Your own empathy, openness, and humility work wonders. You help create a tone.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I can agree with you and I do feel your pain when you say “we can’t rescue those girls”. Just typing it brings a tear to my eye. Yes there is a lot of apathy in the world but it is not for us to judge, God will be their judge. We can’t always know if that person truly doesn’t care or if they are so hurt by the sight of this atrocity that they are unable to even face the sight of it.

“What did they do” is a difficult question, that will most likely remain unanswered in our lifetime. When I read it I was reminded of a response I heard to the question of evil. Back to the free will response, it is not just the free will of the men that took them, but also the free will of the little girls fathers and their fathers and the fathers of the fathers of the men that took them. As well as the fathers of men who might of been able to stop this when it first began. The list goes on and on. It starts to become mind blowing. However, this thought makes me think and appreciate what I have in my life. It makes me think about the type of person God wants me to be. I am constantly reminded of all the gifts and abilities he has given me. I try to think of this all of the time, because the decisions I make today can have consequences on my life as well as the lives of my great, great, great, great … grandchildren who might not be born for another 100 years.

I think that all we can do some times is pray and trust in God’s plan. God has given me many great gifts and abilities and I have seen the holy spirit working in my life many times. Yet trusting in his plan and giving it up to God is probably what I struggle with most. This is what puts me in the later group, I find it very difficult to face the things that I cannot fix.

God Bless,

Matthew 19:26

I’m making an assumption here, but I believe when you say we are not called to judge, you mean judge the person. No, we are not called to judge the person, I agree with you on that. However, we are called to judge the act. It’s the difference between moral relativism and moral realism, which I think you know. For the sake of our Catholic moral theology, we are called upon to condemn the act as evil.

Thank you for your response to me, and my apologies if I repeated what you said. I’m just striving for clarity. Thank you.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Well, every little bit helps:

usccb.org/about/anti-trafficking-program/coalition-of-catholic-organizations-against-human-trafficking.cfm

slaverynomore.org/organizations/

Wow, those are some tough questions. What I have been focusing on lately in my reading is the healing of losses. We so often think of grieving associated with death, but there are so many other times to grieve. You obviously care a great deal about the suffering victims, and their loss is your loss. When I think about it, one of the worst answers might be “you should just be thankful for what you have”. Such an answer shuts down or pushes away the process of grieving, which is more like admitting our sadness, anger (i.e. toward the perpetrators or the apathetic), and other feelings such as guilt (I should have done more to stop this!), working through the grief rather than pushing it away.

Other answers that well-meaning people around us may give, but do not address the real need to grieve:

“Here, donate money and you will feel better”. (Did I just do that above? If so, inadvertently)
“Just get over it.”

It seems a little ridiculous for me to be writing this to someone involved with hospice, because you know all of this, but we cannot take for granted that readers do. What else do you have to offer about the grieving process and its application? Do hospice workers tend to ignore their own “minor” grieving because they are dealing with such “bigger” problems?

As far as people caring, it serves us all to be a bit desensitized, or everything would be a bit overwhelming, as we discussed earlier. Also, it is a human reality that our care rarely extends to people in the “outgroup”, so there is that going on too. Every case of apathy is a different case. And perhaps when we complain or seem “jaded and pessimistic” it is all part of the grieving process, and I suppose acknowledging that may change our outlo

ok from one of self-judging to one of self-nurturing.



Your own empathy, openness, and humility work wonders. You help create a tone.

Thank you for your response, One Sheep.

Some hospice volunteers cannot continue because they become overcome with grief, especially if the family is grieving terribly. Despite hospice care, many families still cling to the hope that their loved one will recover.

Good hospice workers - the nurses and the volunteers, but especially the volunteers, tend to bond with the patient if he or she is there for any length of time. The volunteers often spend a lot more time with the individual patients. We listen to what they have to say, we read to them, pray with them, hold their hand. We can’t help but bond with them. I’ve known hospice workers, and I am one myself, who become closer to some patients than their own family members are. Sometimes the family has just been through so much that this end, this finality, is a relief for them despite their sadness.

All patients die in their own way. A few fight it to their last breath, but I’ve found these are far and few between. Most have accepted their death, and they seem to find a certain grace in dying, and that grace can be shared with the volunteer assigned to them. I don’t really know how to explain this grace, but I feel you understand.

Hospice workers do grieve, we aren’t really disinterested, but we have to move on. There is always another person who needs us very much.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses and your kind words. They are much appreciated.

 

[MT1926]

I’m making an assumption here, but I believe when you say we are not called to judge, you mean judge the person. No, we are not called to judge the person, I agree with you on that. However, we are called to judge the act. It’s the difference between moral relativism and moral realism, which I think you know. For the sake of our Catholic moral theology, we are called upon to condemn the act as evil.

Thank you for your response to me, and my apologies if I repeated what you said. I’m just striving for clarity. Thank you.

Yes you are correct. Love the sinner condemn the sin as they say.

No apologies necessary this is a difficult subject to wrap around our brains sometimes.

Matthew 19:26

 

[OneSheep]

Yes you are correct. Love the sinner condemn the sin as they say.

No apologies necessary this is a difficult subject to wrap around our brains sometimes.

Matthew 19:26

You’ve nailed that one, MT. It is very difficult to love the sinner and condemn the sin.

In my own observations, we very naturally tie people to their acts. This is confirmed by studies with infants; they select ingroups and outgroups based on mutual likes. In addition, it is part of our functioning to condemn the source of an evil act, I find myself immediately thinking that someone who breaks an important rule as a “jerk” and worse. My mind automatically dehumanizes. The best I can do is to become aware that I am condemning a person.

Once I’ve discovered this, I have the discipline to forgive the “trespasser” through understanding why he trespassed in the first place. I put myself in his shoes and discern why I would do what he did. With the help of prayer, there is always an answer, an answer that illuminates a good intent, an inner innocence.

What I find almost impossible as an adult is to simply “not condemn the sinner”. I could do that as a child, but as an adult I have found that I really have to set my efforts toward understanding the person in order to honestly let go of the condemnation. I come to a point of being able to say, “I could have done that if I were in his shoes” through understanding motives and by seeing the blindness, the limitations in awareness.

So yes, I agree!

 

[cornbread_r2]

From CAF apologist Fr. Vincent Serpa when answering a related question. Emphasis mine.

God the Father and God the Son love each other so much that whatever one wants, the other wants also. Jesus said in Jn. 10:18, “No one takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.” From all eternity the Father and the Son wanted the Son to take on a human nature and redeem the human race on Good Friday. Since God has no beginning or end, the Father and the Son have always known that they wanted this. Why? We will have to ask them when we see them in heaven. I hope this helps.

Given what was written here, it seems that Jesus has always existed as the savior and that The Fall was indeed inevitable.

 

[cornbread_r2]

From CAF apologist Fr. Vincent Serpa when answering a related question. Emphasis mine.

God the Father and God the Son love each other so much that whatever one wants, the other wants also. Jesus said in Jn. 10:18, “No one takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.” From all eternity the Father and the Son wanted the Son to take on a human nature and redeem the human race on Good Friday. Since God has no beginning or end, the Father and the Son have always known that they wanted this. Why? We will have to ask them when we see them in heaven. I hope this helps.

Given what was written here, it seems that Jesus has always existed as the savior and that The Fall was indeed inevitable.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

From CAF apologist Fr. Vincent Serpa when answering a related question. Emphasis mine.

Given what was written here, it seems that Jesus has always existed as the savior and that The Fall was indeed inevitable.

I think the fall was part of God’s plan, too. I think, in part, to show us how much he loves us. Some people say we could know that if we were still sinless and living in the Garden, but I don’t agree.

If I have a friend who says he or she loves me, and I trust that friend, I believe him or her. However, if some day that same friend risks his or her own life to push me out of the way of a speeding car or some such other thing, I believe him or her all the more. This is a very weak analogy, but I think you get my point.

U agree that Jesus has always existed as the Savior, but I don’t believe he had a body until the Incarnation. Human beings are created, and I think Jesus took on that creation when the time was right. However, since God lives in timelessness and not linear time like man, I’m not sure. When timelessness enters the picture, it becomes something else again. For God, our redemption is only beginning, yet it is also complete.

 

[cornbread_r2]

I think the fall was part of God’s plan, too. I think, in part, to show us how much he loves us. Some people say we could know that if we were still sinless and living in the Garden, but I don’t agree.

If I have a friend who says he or she loves me, and I trust that friend, I believe him or her. However, if some day that same friend risks his or her own life to push me out of the way of a speeding car or some such other thing, I believe him or her all the more. This is a very weak analogy, but I think you get my point.

U agree that Jesus has always existed as the Savior, but I don’t believe he had a body until the Incarnation. Human beings are created, and I think Jesus took on that creation when the time was right. However, since God lives in timelessness and not linear time like man, I’m not sure. When timelessness enters the picture, it becomes something else again. For God, our redemption is only beginning, yet it is also complete.

If you agree that Jesus has always exited as savior, then do you also agree that necessarily implies that the Fall was inevitable?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

If you agree that Jesus has always exited as savior, then do you also agree that necessarily implies that the Fall was inevitable?

Yes, sure do. But what then does that say about free will if Adam and Eve were destined to fall?

 

[MT1926]

Yes, sure do. But what then does that say about free will if Adam and Eve were destined to fall?

That is a great question and a deep question. This doesn’t really answer it but I found a list of the Church dogmas yesterday. Wow, never new there were 255 church dogmas. Anyhow, the “faithful” answer to the question, not the human answer goes as follows:

10. God is actually infinite in every perfection.
11. God is absolutely simple.
12. There is only One God.
13. The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God.
14. God possesses an infinite power of cognition.
15. God is absolute Veracity.
16. God is absolutely faithful.
17. God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
18. God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
19. God is absolute Benignity.
20. God is absolutely immutable.
21. God is eternal.
22. God is immense or absolutely immeasurable.
23. God is everywhere present in created space.
24. God’s knowledge is infinite.
25. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae).
26. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis).
27. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty.
28. God’s Divine will is infinite.
29. God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom.

I think if you put all of these dogmas together it helps us come to a conclusion I guess. But the faithful answer is #27.

An older movie from 2007 comes to mind called Next. It was about a guy that had the ability to foresee every possible outcome of a move he would make over the next 5 minutes. Since God is everywhere, in all time and his knowledge is infinite we know he knows everything. I think of like this: he has the ability to know every possibly decision we can ever make on any given day and the outcome of those decisions and how those outcomes effect other decisions. So basically God already knew the outcome of the fall and he knew the fall could have occurred on any day of the week from here to eternity and the outcome of the fall on each and everyday that it could have occurred, but it was Adam and Eve’s free will to choose when they wanted to fall.

It is all kind of confusing and might not be correct but that is kind of the way I think about it. God has the vision to see every possible move we could ever make and the outcomes of those decisions and how those decisions effect our lives and other decisions we make. When we come to a fork in the road he already knows where both paths lead but we still have the free will to choose the path.

Matthew 19:26