The fault in Aquinas' First Way

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What goes on in my mind? This: you are using doubt as your last refuge not to face life. It is the excuse that you are constantly offering to yourself because you know that you will surrender to it. Faith, and not doubt, is your greatest challenge. Doubt keeps you in the same grey place; no good puzzles in it at all. Faith will illuminate what is in front of you, and will provide good challenges to you. Even doubt will then become a challenge, but not yours. Faith, and not doubt.

God bless you.
JuanFlorencio
Thank you, it’s nice to finally know what you’re really thinking. And who knows, you might actually be right on some points, who am I to say. After all, you’re the one with the degree, so I’ll bow to your expertise.
You will need to provide me with much more material in order for me to know if you are God or not.
Why don’t we see if the world exists only in your mind first?
To begin with let me reiterate, as a soft solipsist I don’t necessarily believe that the world exists only in my mind, I simply accept it as a possibility, and one which by its very nature can neither be proven nor disproven. I can however examine the likelihood and possible causes of a consciousness created reality.

The first observation, which seems fairly self-evident, is that even if consciousness could create its own reality, it couldn’t create itself. Thus consciousness must arise from something, the nature of which may be conjectured, but can never be known with certainty. Thus even if there is a God, His existence outside of the conscious mind can never be known. Ever!

But let’s assume for the sake of argument, and in keeping with the theme of this thread, that Aquinas’ Five Ways are correct, and there is a God. Which would then seem more likely, that God created a material world, or that He created an immaterial world? If we stick with our assumption that Aquinas’ Five Ways are correct then the Fourth Way tells us that by the argument of gradation we can know the relationship between the creator and the created. They must be the same, varying only by degree. What this means is that if realty is material, then God is also material. But if God is immaterial, then reality is also immaterial. It would therefore seem logical that if Aquinas’ Fourth Way is correct, then either God is material, or we’re not.

Thus, given the choice between either a material God or an immaterial reality, it would seem more likely that we’re living in an immaterial reality. The fact that it appears to be material is simply an illusion. But this leads to a second question, who created it? Did God create it, and it created me? Or did God create me, and I created it? If reality is really just an illusion, then who created it? Well let’s look at the evidence. Does the world around you, with all of its violence, suffering, indifference and death look like something that a loving, benevolent God would create, or does it look like something that you or I would create. I would argue that it looks like something that I would create. But why?

This leads us to a third question, the one which religion proposes to answer. Why is the world the way it is? The theist would argue that God created the world, but in His benevolence granted us free will, and its we and our free will that brings suffering into the world. But I would argue that if God truly wanted to grant us free will, then He wouldn’t just grant us the freedom to choose, He would grant us the freedom to create, and the evidence suggests that that’s exactly what He did. The world looks much more like something I would create, then something that a benevolent God would create.

Still, why is there such suffering? If I have the power to create, why don’t I simply create my own personal concept of heaven? The answer may simply be, that I can’t. Because the world is just a reflection of my doubts, and fears, and hopes, and desires. I could argue that the world is the way it is because the conscious mind attempts to avoid cognitive dissonance. Attempts to cope with the questions of where did I come from, where am I going, and why am I here. Attempts to give itself context. But why can’t it create context without creating such suffering? Perhaps because it simply can’t imagine light without darkness, warmth without cold, and good without evil. And so it exists in a world that’s inevitably torn between the two, and it imagines a God for whom such heavenly things are possible.

But as I say, I’m a soft solipsist, so I can’t say if any of this is true. I’m simply imagining how it could be true. If you would like me to imagine that the world exists simply in a computerized matrix, I can do that also. But the entire point of soft solipsism is that although I can imagine many things, I can never be certain of anything. Strangely, what this means is, I have the power to choose. I have free will. The ultimate truth is that each of us believes what we choose to believe, but NONE of us can ever know if we’re right.

I would appreciate any and all arguments against the solipsistic mind as presented above. Yes it’s farfetched. Yes its probably delusional. But is it wrong, and can you prove it’s wrong?
 
Well, that is a steaming pile, but I’ll let Juan respond because the ball is in his court.

Linus2nd.
 
… I would appreciate any and all arguments against the solipsistic mind as presented above. Yes it’s farfetched. Yes its probably delusional. But is it wrong, and can you prove it’s wrong?
The best test of any theory is whether it corresponds to the way we live. Do you behave as if you are the only person that exists? 😉
 
Well, that is a steaming pile, but I’ll let Juan respond because the ball is in his court.
Could there be just a touch of bias in that critique?

I realize that I had to give the ultra abridged version of the theory, but I do believe that each point will hold up to scrutiny. If you don’t believe that they will, then pick the one that you believe to be the most malodorous, and we can reason through it together.

All that I’m asking, is if I’m wrong, show me where I’m wrong. If my logic is faulty, show me where it’s faulty. I’m actually asking for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m sorry if that’s too much to ask.
 
But being the inquisitive type, my ultimate goal is to find out, and that’s the actual purpose of this thread, to see if reason, and in particular Aquinas’ Five ways, can prove once and for all that I’m not the creator of the world around me. The task I’m afraid is most likely doomed.
Oh my. I think your “inquisitiveness” has become a little unhealthy. Ever hear the expression “curiosity killed the cat”? Well, St. Thomas agrees: curiosity is a vice, a sin. See II-II, Q.167.

And so is folly. *Do you actually believe that you alone exist? *
 
The best test of any theory is whether it corresponds to the way we live. Do you behave as if you are the only person that exists? 😉
I behave as if life is an amazingly wonderful gift, and it doesn’t matter to me what its source is. For regardless of its source, it’s all that I may ever have. That makes it extremely precious. There are people all over this world living passionate, fulfilling lives while at the same time believing in Gods that you claim aren’t real. Does their delusion make their lives less fulfilling? If you truly believe it does, then I feel sorry for you. It’s not what a person believes that determines the value of their life, but rather the character with which they live it. Living life with honor, and humility, and compassion isn’t the sole dominion of Catholics, or Christians, or theists. It’s the dominion of us all. We each live in the manner of our own choosing, and the best that we can hope to do, is to live it well, and be content in the knowledge that we have persevered.

👍 Here’s hoping that your life is as fulfilling as your heart desires it to be.
 
All that I’m asking, is if I’m wrong, show me where I’m wrong. If my logic is faulty, show me where it’s faulty. I’m actually asking for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m sorry if that’s too much to ask.
This assertion is totally insincere. You are wrong because you are taking for granted that another human being apart from yourself can actually challenge your assumptions and alter the way you think. If you actually lived what you claim to believe, you wouldn’t be on an online forum asking other people for their “(name removed by moderator)ut.” We either exist (and you are wrong) or we don’t (and you are talking to yourself).
 
*Do you actually believe that you alone exist? *
That would be hard solipsism. I’m a soft solipsist. That means that as a conscious self-aware being there’s no way that I can ever be certain if the world around me is real or not. It’s not something in which I have a choice. The only choice that you, I, or anyone else has is whether or not to accept it. It’s a fact that you can ignore, but it’s not one that you can change.

You can never be certain if anything outside of yourself, is objectively real. But without it, what do you have?
Umm, no there isn’t. Your own narrative and vocabulary betrays you. At least be consistent.
As I mentioned above, that would be hard solipsism. I’m not saying that you don’t exist. I’m simply saying that I have no way of being certain that you exist.
 
I’m not saying that you don’t exist. I’m simply saying that I have no way of being certain that you exist.
Do you have any way of being certain that anything exists? Do you certainly exist? What is your definition of certainty?
 
Do you have any way of being certain that anything exists? Do you certainly exist? What is your definition of certainty?
We probably all agree that certainty comes in varying degrees. It’s not always absolute. The only one who could be absolutely certain of everything is God, and we’re not God. At least I don’t think that I’m God. So what is there that we can be absolutely certain of? Well the one thing that I’m most certain of, is me. As Descartes says, I think, therefore I am. But can I extend that reasoning to your existence? Unfortunately, no I can’t. Which means that I’m more certain of my existence than I am of your existence. And that means that there must be some degree of uncertainty to your existence. I simply can’t be absolutely certain. I can be functionally certain. I can live as if you’re real. I just can’t know.

And the fact that I can’t know is tremendously important, because people judge, and condemn, and kill based upon things that they simply can’t know. It’s a fantastic thing to have faith, but remember that that’s what it is, faith. Faith demands humility, because it’s the admitting of uncertainty. How can you have one without the other?

I’m not asking you to live your life in constant uncertainty, I’m asking you to live it in humility. That’s all soft solipsism really is. It’s not thinking you’re God, it’s knowing you’re not.
 
We probably all agree that certainty comes in varying degrees. It’s not always absolute. The only one who could be absolutely certain of everything is God, and we’re not God. At least I don’t think that I’m God. So what is there that we can be absolutely certain of? Well the one thing that I’m most certain of, is me. As Descartes says, I think, therefore I am. But can I extend that reasoning to your existence? Unfortunately, no I can’t. Which means that I’m more certain of my existence than I am of your existence. And that means that there must be some degree of uncertainty to your existence. I simply can’t be absolutely certain. I can be functionally certain. I can live as if you’re real. I just can’t know.

And the fact that I can’t know is tremendously important, because people judge, and condemn, and kill based upon things that they simply can’t know. It’s a fantastic thing to have faith, but remember that that’s what it is, faith. Faith demands humility, because it’s the admitting of uncertainty. How can you have one without the other?

I’m not asking you to live your life in constant uncertainty, I’m asking you to live it in humility. That’s all soft solipsism really is. It’s not thinking you’re God, it’s knowing you’re not.
I don’t need solipsism or any other “ism” to know I’m not God.

Furthermore, it is utterly absurd to say that you are certain of your own existence but not the existence of others. You can know; you just like pretending you can’t. To believe otherwise is folly.

But I get the impression that nothing I say (if indeed I’m saying it) or Descarte for that matter, who never existed mind you, could ever persuade you otherwise. Such pride. You preach humility yet you have none; for you could never be wrong.

Good bye, and good luck.
 
A man who is a pure skeptic (although I doubt there is one) would say “I can’t be sure of anything” then one could respond "are you sure that you can’t be sure, he resolves himself into an irrational corner, he contradicts himself so he dismisses himself from any rational dialogue. We can suffer from degrees of skepticism We can also suffer from Agnosticism, people who say they can’t know God, or anything about Him, although they may not deny His existence. It is also true, that one may be convinced that he knows the truth, even about himself and what he thinks, and be completely wrong until it is revealed to him by an internal revelation (the light comes on to reveal the truth). St.Paul had this experience, and so have many others, and it’s call “grace” of interior illumination. This condition is not known to exist by the individual who has this condition, it is a spiritual blindness. And this is a possibility in everyone of us, and it takes God to remove it. Food for thought.
 
Thank you, it’s nice to finally know what you’re really thinking. And who knows, you might actually be right on some points, who am I to say. After all, you’re the one with the degree, so I’ll bow to your expertise.
To begin with let me reiterate, as a soft solipsist I don’t necessarily believe that the world exists only in my mind, I simply accept it as a possibility, and one which by its very nature can neither be proven nor disproven. I can however examine the likelihood and possible causes of a consciousness created reality.

The first observation, which seems fairly self-evident, is that even if consciousness could create its own reality, it couldn’t create itself. Thus consciousness must arise from something, the nature of which may be conjectured, but can never be known with certainty. Thus even if there is a God, His existence outside of the conscious mind can never be known. Ever!

But let’s assume for the sake of argument, and in keeping with the theme of this thread, that Aquinas’ Five Ways are correct, and there is a God. Which would then seem more likely, that God created a material world, or that He created an immaterial world? If we stick with our assumption that Aquinas’ Five Ways are correct then the Fourth Way tells us that by the argument of gradation we can know the relationship between the creator and the created. They must be the same, varying only by degree. What this means is that if realty is material, then God is also material. But if God is immaterial, then reality is also immaterial. It would therefore seem logical that if Aquinas’ Fourth Way is correct, then either God is material, or we’re not.

Thus, given the choice between either a material God or an immaterial reality, it would seem more likely that we’re living in an immaterial reality. The fact that it appears to be material is simply an illusion. But this leads to a second question, who created it? Did God create it, and it created me? Or did God create me, and I created it? If reality is really just an illusion, then who created it? Well let’s look at the evidence. Does the world around you, with all of its violence, suffering, indifference and death look like something that a loving, benevolent God would create, or does it look like something that you or I would create. I would argue that it looks like something that I would create. But why?

This leads us to a third question, the one which religion proposes to answer. Why is the world the way it is? The theist would argue that God created the world, but in His benevolence granted us free will, and its we and our free will that brings suffering into the world. But I would argue that if God truly wanted to grant us free will, then He wouldn’t just grant us the freedom to choose, He would grant us the freedom to create, and the evidence suggests that that’s exactly what He did. The world looks much more like something I would create, then something that a benevolent God would create.

Still, why is there such suffering? If I have the power to create, why don’t I simply create my own personal concept of heaven? The answer may simply be, that I can’t. Because the world is just a reflection of my doubts, and fears, and hopes, and desires. I could argue that the world is the way it is because the conscious mind attempts to avoid cognitive dissonance. Attempts to cope with the questions of where did I come from, where am I going, and why am I here. Attempts to give itself context. But why can’t it create context without creating such suffering? Perhaps because it simply can’t imagine light without darkness, warmth without cold, and good without evil. And so it exists in a world that’s inevitably torn between the two, and it imagines a God for whom such heavenly things are possible.

But as I say, I’m a soft solipsist, so I can’t say if any of this is true. I’m simply imagining how it could be true. If you would like me to imagine that the world exists simply in a computerized matrix, I can do that also. But the entire point of soft solipsism is that although I can imagine many things, I can never be certain of anything. Strangely, what this means is, I have the power to choose. I have free will. The ultimate truth is that each of us believes what we choose to believe, but NONE of us can ever know if we’re right…
Dear Partinobodycula:

We need to choose a starting point. But if we need to do so, it is because we are late.

Descartes was late too when he thought that he would need to start from the beginning. There were too many opposed doctrines already. But he was too late too when he said: “Cogito, ergo sum”.

Perhaps his regression would have been better if he had said:

Cogito…
Sum.

But even so he would have been very late.

What should be our starting point? Should we oppose one doctrine against another? I don’t think it would make sense. We would be late!

What then?

I don’t see you. I don’ hear you. I don’t feel you. But I can read you. For me you are a discourse that is progressively displayed in front of me. And you can think the same of me. But we cannot start like this. We would be as late as before. I think you should be alone.

I said before that I would be just an aspect of you, the one that makes questions and from time to time establishes certain relations. This would be my role, at least for a time, if you accept.

I think that Descartes would have been closer to the beginning if he had said:

“Words…”
“Language…”
“There is language”

Shall we start from there? You should repeat those words to yourself: “There is language”. First, language, then you. This is the right order, isn’t it?

What is language then? You should not look for information in a book or somewhere else. It would be a big mistake: you would be too late again!

So, what is language, Partinobodycula?

Regards
JuanFlorencio
 
I behave as if life is an amazingly wonderful gift, and it doesn’t matter to me what its source is. For regardless of its source, it’s all that I may ever have. That makes it extremely precious. There are people all over this world living passionate, fulfilling lives while at the same time believing in Gods that you claim aren’t real. Does their delusion make their lives less fulfilling? If you truly believe it does, then I feel sorry for you. It’s not what a person believes that determines the value of their life, but rather the character with which they live it. Living life with honor, and humility, and compassion isn’t the sole dominion of Catholics, or Christians, or theists. It’s the dominion of us all. We each live in the manner of our own choosing, and the best that we can hope to do, is to live it well, and be content in the knowledge that we have persevered.

👍 Here’s hoping that your life is as fulfilling as your heart desires it to be.
Thank you for that kind thought which I reciprocate. I entirely agree with you about the value of life and how we live it but everything you write implies that others exist. 🙂

I don’t claim other people’s Gods aren’t real. I simply believe the Christian concept of God is far closer to the truth because of the beauty and nobility of Christ’s teaching that is reflected in the way He lived and died for us out of unimaginably perfect love. It far surpasses all the fiction that has ever been written. The truth certainly shines by its own light.
 
I don’t claim other people’s Gods aren’t real. I simply believe the Christian concept of God is far closer to the truth because of the beauty and nobility of Christ’s teaching that is reflected in the way He lived and died for us out of unimaginably perfect love. It far surpasses all the fiction that has ever been written. The truth certainly shines by its own light.
And that my friend is why it says “Christian Solipsist” in the upper right hand corner of this post.
 
Even if we assume that Aquinas’ First Way is a sound argument, it still contains at least one major fault:

That fault being that although it explains the presence of motion in material things, it doesn’t explain the existence of material things.

The First Way simply posits that everything in motion must have been put in motion by something else, and since an infinite regress is impossible, there must have been a first mover, an unmoved mover. But this does nothing to explain where that which was put in motion came from. It simply argues for an unmoved mover, not a creator.

We could imagine a universe in which nothing was in motion, in which case Aquinas’ First Way would do absolutely nothing to explain the world’s existence. If nothing is in motion, then there would be no need for a first mover.

So Aquinas’ First Way simply argues for God as a manipulator of matter, but not as a creator of it.
Aquinas unmoved mover argument is actually about change, not merely motion of a body. When Aquinas used the word motion at that time it meant change. In today’s language it has become associated with the moving of a body through space. So for anything to change it must have the potential to change. Since in our universe we observe change all around us. Indeed we ourselves change. Then in our universe Aquinas’ argument is valid because it argues that there must be something that is pure Actuality, that has no potentiality in order to actualize everything else. Indeed if it needed to be actualized then it could not be the unmoved mover. Just as a house requires a foundation so does change require an unchanged changer.

For more info see

edwardfeser.com/mediaappearances.html

Anything that is material is subject to change. Anything that is material is composed of parts and thus requires an explanation for how those parts came together, an explanation that involves change. And change is the actualization of a potential. Any material has properties, like the color redness for instance, that were actualized.
 
Indeed existence itself must be actualized for anything that begins to exist.
 
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