The Fear of Hell

[PRmerger]

As far as people beneath me in dignity, I think your co-workers grandfather might make the cut.

You can look at someone’s actions and determine his worth? Really?

#chilling

So if this man fell off a cliff and was hanging by a tree limb, and all you had to do was toss him a rope, would you do it? Given that he is below you in worth and all that.

Dignity has to be earned.

#scary.

So this creature, who has done nothing, has no dignity?

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[PumpkinCookie]

It upsets you to imagine people suffering eternally.
To see them suffer thusly would be hell for you.

Now you are going on about blame, so (piutting on my Dr. Phil hat :tiphat this could be simply anxiety arising form neurotic conflict, guilt/resentment.

On the other hand, maybe it is a message about all the people you could be helping right here and now, that you will never be able to, ever, for all eternity, when time runs out.

God is Love, get on with it.

Maybe you’re right. But, I can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t be similarly “neurotically anxious” if they actually believed that any other human beings were going to be tortured in hell forever. Further, I no longer believe in eternal hell (though I’m not absolutely certain) so I have been feeling much better than previously.

Also, you’re right! I feel terrible that I can’t do too much to help anyone avoid hell. Now, if only I had perfect knowledge, limitless power, and infinite love… Wouldn’t it be great if a being like that would help everyone and ensure that no one goes to hell?

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe you’re right. But, I can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t be similarly “neurotically anxious” if they actually believed that any other human beings were going to be tortured in hell forever. Further, I no longer believe in eternal hell (though I’m not absolutely certain) so I have been feeling much better than previously.

Also, you’re right! I feel terrible that I can’t do too much to help anyone avoid hell. Now, if only I had perfect knowledge, limitless power, and infinite love… Wouldn’t it be great if a being like that would help everyone and ensure that no one goes to hell?

Let’s make one thing clear:

You’re not saying that if God exists, hell couldn’t exist, right?

You’re simply saying that if hell exists, you don’t like that it’s eternal, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

No, this is incorrect! God’s moral responsibility far surpasses mine because he lives in the “eternal now” and knows everything.

Is God responsible for me typing this word right now…

wait for it…

wait for it…

“Commencement”.

Yes? Or no?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Is God responsible for me typing this word right now…

wait for it…

wait for it…

“Commencement”.

Yes? Or no?

Yes. It’s more complex than that, but essentially, yes.

Yes, I’m OK with the concept of hell as a place of punishment and and/or annihilation. But, I think that the phrases “God is goodness” or “God is love” or “God is beauty” or “God is justice” or “God is truth” are literally meaningless in the sense that they don’t refer to anything if hell is eternal punishment. If even one person is tormented by God forever, then I don’t know what God is, but it is certainly not love in any meaningful sense of the word.

I’ve explained my reasoning at length, and any reader is able to go back and understand. I don’t think I’ve been very unclear but perhaps I have failed to communicate well.

 

[PRmerger]

All those we were thinking of in those moments? I’ll nominate them as having more dignity and worth than me.

That’s touching…men and women who died for your liberty. #heroic

And yet…surely out of those thousands of men and women you indicate had more dignity than you…sure 2-3 were also wife-beaters, hypocrites, liars, cheaters, adulterers, thieves, yes?

How do you measure their dignity knowing this, too?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. It’s more complex than that, but essentially, yes.

Well, that’s not the Catholic teaching.

Catholicism professes the sublime and eminently wonderful gift of our free will.

God is no more responsible for my typing the word “coercsion” incorrectly, than He would be for me to type it correctly.

If you don’t believe in free will, then what’s the point of anything, PC? Why are we even in dialogue about this if we are all automatons?

#inutile

Yes, I’m OK with the concept of hell as a place of punishment and and/or annihilation. But, I think that the phrases “God is goodness” or “God is love” or “God is beauty” or “God is justice” or “God is truth” are literally meaningless in the sense that they don’t refer to anything if hell is eternal punishment. If even one person is tormented by God forever, then I don’t know what God is, but it is certainly not love in any meaningful sense of the word.

Fair enough.

So you believe God could exist, but not a loving God, if hell exists?

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger, you seem to think hardly anyone goes to hell anyway, so no issue. I disagree, and I suppose it can’t be proven either way.

Just a wee correction: I have no idea how many people go to hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I am saying that there is no Past, Present or Future to God.

There is only the Eternal Now.

If there is “no Past, Present or Future to God” as in God not knowing anything about the “Past, Present or Future” of someone that God created, which is what I tried to convey, than you are saying that God is not only not Omniscient concerning His creation but is totally unknowing concerning His creation.

Would you say that God is Omniignorant concerning His creation?

As far as “There is only the Eternal Now”.

Are you also saying that the Incarnation didn’t happen?

Are you also saying that God did not enter His creation by visiting, so to speak, when He spoke to Moses and some of the other “visitings” that God did?

“Visiting” as opposed to when God became a part of God’s creation in the Incarnation.

 

[PRmerger]

Which should deserve some answers.

Well, as a lover of science and philosophy, I’m all about asking questions and seeking answers.

So I don’t begrudge you your questions. I’ll try to entertain them if you answer my questions first:

How would you answer your 5 yr old son who asks you:

“Do I think about my toy truck when I’m in my marriage bed, but just don’t want it anymore?”

“And how do you know, Daddy Bradski, that I won’t want my truck? Nor think about my truck. I love my truck oh so very much, so I really don’t believe you, dearest Daddy Bradski.”

 

[PRmerger]

If there is “no Past, Present or Future to God” as in God not knowing anything about the “Past, Present or Future” of someone that God created, which is what I tried to convey, than you are saying that God is not only not Omniscient concerning His creation but is totally unknowing concerning His creation.

You are thinking way too linearly, Tom.

Would you say that God is Omniignorant concerning His creation

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

As far as “There is only the Eternal Now”.

Are you also saying that the Incarnation didn’t happen?

Nope.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Can you give me an example of things in the present that are so difficult to believe?

One would be basically an unknown being granted, by God, the “experience” of hell.

And I don’t mean to “see” others in hell but to “experience” their own hell.

That is just one.

You can look it up but there have been many who have had “experiences” in life in the present day, in Jesus’s day and in OT times that were not believed until after their deaths.

Some of the stories in the bible, itself, speaks of this.

If you think about it, how much concerning Jesus was believed before His death?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Well, that’s not the Catholic teaching.

Catholicism professes the sublime and eminently wonderful gift of our free will.

God is no more responsible for my typing the word “coercsion” incorrectly, than He would be for me to type it correctly.

If you don’t believe in free will, then what’s the point of anything, PC? Why are we even in dialogue about this if we are all automatons?

So you believe God could exist, but not a loving God, if hell exists?

Go ahead and google “compatibilst theories of free-will.” The RCC teaches some form of compatibilist free will, depending on the teacher of course, there is no consensus to my knowledge. Then, read this article:

newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#cat

You, and many others who attempt to argue for the justice of hell, assert (implicitly in your case) the existence of “libertarian” free will. But, the RCC does not endorse this theory.

Further, the RCC teaches not only that God has created the universe way back at the big bang, but that God sustains the existence of every single thing. Consequently, it can be said that all of your actions, thoughts, and your essence are the continuously active work of God. That doesn’t mean you are an automaton, rather God’s will and your will have “synergized” and are working together, at least according to the RCC. Some theologians have called this “non-competitive.” What is the opposite of competitive? Co-operative!

We can have this dialogue because I believe that our thoughts are among the most “free” things about us.

If there is an eternal hell populated by even one conscious being, then existence to me is utterly contemptible and I wish I had never been born. I would not call the author of that universe God whatsoever. I would refuse to acknowledge that being with a name, and then submit to my eternal torture.

You say

Just a wee correction: I have no idea how many people go to hell.

And yet, prior to this you stated that you’re pretty sure you and your family aren’t headed there. I don’t want to make this personal, but I took your optimistic outlook for your own situation as your general view…unless of course you and your family are just ever so much better than the rest of us?

 

[tonyrey]

God lives in the “eternal now” with full knowledge and complete power. He chooses to hold everything in existence at all times. At any moment, he could let go and we would be blotted out from existence. That he chooses not to do this for the souls being tormented endlessly in hell, is unconscionable.

His knowledge, coupled with his omnipotence are precisely what make him guilty (given the RCC’s account).

1. You have overlooked the moral obligation of choosing the lesser evil. It would be a greater evil to create beings incapable of choosing their own destiny. Being a person is preferable to being an animal even if it entails suffering. As J S Mill remarked, it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied rather than a pig satisfied.
2. Any form of existence - apart from God’s of course -has its disadvantages and limitations. No creature’s life can be perfect in every respect. The issue is to what extent its disadvantages outweigh its advantages - which is impossible to determine where hell is concerned. Since we have no precise knowledge of what being damned entails in terms of fulfilment and frustration we are not justified in believing God is guilty of permitting unjustified suffering. In this world many people choose to endure pain and misery to achieve their goals - and they are regarded as heroes rather than fools. Of course cynical hedonists reject such sacrifice as lunacy but most of us admire their courage and determination. It is not fanciful to believe that in hell misguided individuals choose to strike out on their own instead of being what they regard as timid lapdogs (an accusation frequently levelled at religious people who are supposed to be afraid of disobeying God’s will and motivated more by fear than love).
3. The statement that souls are tormented in hell is a distortion of the fact that the damned choose to suffer in order to be independent. Considering how many people in this world have chosen to die rather than be a slave - or virtual slave - it is to be expected that in the next world there are some who do likewise. The very mention of a Father in heaven makes some individuals contemptuous and sarcastic. They do not necessarily reject God when they die but it seems unlikely that no one ever decides to live for themselves in “splendid isolation”.
4. Pride is undoubtedly the worst vice and it causes more misery than anything else both for the individual and his/her victims. If we believe we are superior to everyone else we are capable of doing anything to achieve our goals. That is why** hell is not an illusion but a reality that begins here and now.** From start to finish there is a constant struggle between good and evil, between love and hate. Yet creation is more enduring than destruction. Ultimately the light is more powerful than the shadows which are restricted by their dependence. The scope of evil is similarly confined to isolated individuals who lack the power to harm anyone but themselves.
5. The alternative to belief in heaven and hell is a denial not only of the reality of good and evil but also free will. Justice becomes a fantasy and life a nightmare in which the lust for power triumphs over unselfish love. Saints are no different from criminals because there is no criterion by which to distinguish them except wishful thinking. Everything descends into an amoral morass in which nothing is significant or meaningful. Without hell heaven becomes a fool’s paradise. In other words it amounts to wishful thinking in both directions. Why should one exist without the other when there is such a vast gulf between the positive and negative aspects of life? In my opinion it must be a question of both or neither…

 

[PRmerger]

Go ahead and google “compatibilst theories of free-will.” The RCC teaches some form of compatibilist free will, depending on the teacher of course, there is no consensus to my knowledge.

Just so you know, the Catholic Church isn’t Roman.

That’s why this apostolate isn’t called Roman Catholic Answers.

It’s just Catholic Answers.

The Roman, or Latin, rite is only one of many rites in the universal Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Further, the RCC teaches not only that God has created the universe way back at the big bang, but that God sustains the existence of every single thing.

I think you have overstated your position, PC.

The Catholic Church teaches creatio ex nihilo.

But it does not endorse (nor reject) the Big Bang.

If you are insistent upon the “RCC” teaches the big bang, please offer your source for this.

Consequently, it can be said that all of your actions, thoughts, and your essence are the continuously active work of God. That doesn’t mean you are an automaton, rather God’s will and your will have “synergized” and are working together, at least according to the RCC. Some theologians have called this “non-competitive.” What is the opposite of competitive? Co-operative!

Now this? Very Catholic

We can have this dialogue because I believe that our thoughts are among the most “free” things about us.

Ah. So there you go.

If our thoughts are free, God did not responsible for our thoughts–however evil they may be.

If there is an eternal hell populated by even one conscious being, then existence to me is utterly contemptible and I wish I had never been born. I would not call the author of that universe God whatsoever. I would refuse to acknowledge that being with a name, and then submit to my eternal torture.

That you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

You can close your eyes and proclaim, “I hate fire! Fire hurts!” but, fortunately or unfortunately, that doesn’t make fire nonexistent.

And yet, prior to this you stated that you’re pretty sure you and your family aren’t headed there.

Yep. That’s about a hundred people. Compared to…what…billions? Trillions?

So yep, pretty much I don’t know how many people are in hell.

I don’t want to make this personal, but I took your optimistic outlook for your own situation as your general view…unless of course you and your family are just ever so much better than the rest of us?

That, my friend, is above my paygrade.

And it’s also against Catholic teaching, in case you were wondering, for me to decide whether you and your family, and everyone else in the world, is destined for hell or not.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has suggested that perhaps those in heaven don’t have this knowledge. They have been given the gift of “forgetting” that there are any of their loved ones not in heaven with them.

You wrote this in response to “But, imagine the coldness and callousness of the saints, for them to be happy in heaven with the knowledge of their endlessly suffering brothers and sisters in hell, regardless of how they got there.”

Whereas, Thomas Aquinas supposedly said that part of the “joy” of heaven, maybe just indirectly, would be to see the “horrors” of those in hell.

I have said many times that “God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof” and “It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows”.

Who knows, maybe our thoughts on hell are part of God’s search of our hearts and minds, just a thought.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You must be confusing me with someone who thinks that we are all born equal. Which is an odd notion, to put it mildly. We are all slaves to our genetic inheritance. I guess we all have a limited opportunity to make the best of the cards that are dealt, but no, we are not all born equally.

However, the very concept of justice demands that we should be treated equally.

I believe that I just might be the one that someone is speaking of but I did NOT say, “we are all born equal”, what I said was, “In second grade I was taught that we are all equal in God’s Eyes”.

Can you see the difference, the big difference between, “we are all born equal” and “we are all equal in God’s Eyes”.

Being “equal in God’s Eyes”, has nothing, absolutely nothing with being the same.

One could say that it does have everything to do with being different, not the same, uniquely different.

 

[fifiandizzy]

An everlasting eternity WITHOUT Christ…The LakeOfFire is the final stage of hell…if you need to know…yikes!

 

[PRmerger]

You wrote this in response to “But, imagine the coldness and callousness of the saints, for them to be happy in heaven with the knowledge of their endlessly suffering brothers and sisters in hell, regardless of how they got there.”

Whereas, Thomas Aquinas supposedly said that part of the “joy” of heaven, maybe just indirectly, would be to see the “horrors” of those in hell.

Groeschel or Aquinas–we can certainly believe either of them.