The Fear of Hell

[PumpkinCookie]

There is God knowing that “we will choose”. All is in the Eternal Now for Him. There is only knowing in the Now.

So just as God has no blame for my choice at this very moment, He also has no blame for my choice in 2008, nor my choice in 2019.

OK I am done after this, because despite my attempts to make this abundantly clear, I seem to fail.

God is not to blame for our choices (well, maybe a little bit depending upon your opinion of “free will” and “grace”)…God is to blame for our existence in the first place.

 

[PRmerger]

OK I am done after this, because despite my attempts to make this abundantly clear, I seem to fail.

Don’t leave!!

God is not to blame for our choices (well, maybe a little bit depending upon your opinion of “free will” and “grace”)…God is to blame for our existence in the first place.

Ok! Got it! God is guilty as charged for creating you and me!

So what??? I am soooo happy to exist. And because I exist, 4 more beautiful people exist. And one other soul in heaven.

 

[Bradski]

Well, my co-worker talks about her grandfather who dragged his wife through the house by her hair, simply because his dinner wasn’t to his liking.

It seems to me that justice demands that he be in hell.

OK, so me and a couple of mates turn up at this guys house. We’ve got baseball bats. We’re going to start breaking all his bones, one by one. Then we’re going to start tearing his fingernails out. One of the guys has some surgical instruments and I’ve got a blow torch. The other guy is a doctor. He’s there to make sure the guy stays alive as long as we want him to. We will torture him continuously. We start right now. As you read this sentence.

How long do you think this should go on as a punishment for beating his wife? An hour? All day? A week? It seems to you that is should go on for ever. And it will. Unless you tell us to stop or…you can take the blue pill which will make you forget what he’s going through.

What do you do?

What if the man subsequently repented?

Are you kidding me. IF he repented? Are you seriously suggesting that someone would choose not just a lifetime of torment, but eternal torment, rather than repent? If this hell you’re all so sure exists and you get a chance to avoid it by repenting, then trust me, it’s empty. It was a waste of time building the place in the first instance.

All mildly interesting questions…

Which should deserve some answers. However, as has been pointed out, the good father who proposed this scenario didn’t actually follow it through too far.

Here’s another mildly interesting one: How far removed from you personally does the person in hell have to be before they are ‘forgotten’. Cousin? Close friend? Casual acquaintance? Do you really want to spend eternity knowing that the guy who services your car is being tormented every second?

Heaven becomes The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

And yet you make the very, very illogical assertion that “justice demands” that we treat unequal things equally. Can you give a list of people that you believe are beneath you in dignity and worth?

As well as a list of people that are above you in dignity.

Not things. People.

As far as people beneath me in dignity, I think your co-workers grandfather might make the cut. Dignity has to be earned. I don’t think he deserves any. As to his worth, I don’t know. So I’ll go with Bryant as having less worth than I do.

Those who have more?

There’s what they call an RSL club at the end of the beach. A Returned Servicemen’s Club. Lot’s of them about. Primarily formed for ex servicemen to have somewhere to call their own when they wanted to go for a beer. But anyone can, and does, go. Being on the beach, the local one is packed on a weekend. Young crowd generally. Lucky to get a seat most times.

There are pictures of local soldiers (diggers we call them) on the walls. Those who have been killed in action. Some of them quite recently. And there’s a red light in the corner which is always on in remembrance of all those who have fallen.

At 6:00pm every day, the lights dim, the music stops, the sport is turned down, the bar stops serving and whatever you were doing, you stop and stand, face the light and remain silent for a few seconds whilst someone quietly says a few words. However packed the place, however rowdy the crowd, however many beers have been sunk that afternoon, the place is perfectly silent for a few seconds. You can hear kids on the beach and the surf breaking. There’s a quiet murmur of ‘Lest we forget’ and then it’s back to calling the next round and arguing the results of last night’s game.

All those we were thinking of in those moments? I’ll nominate them as having more dignity and worth than me.

 

[tonyrey]

I thought you would vociferously argue that their fate would be due to their own choice? Why would it be “diabolical” in this case? Further, yes, their eternal torment would the result of their choices, but their existence would be our (and God’s) responsibility. If my theoretical children were to end up in hell, I would rightly blame myself to some extent since they wouldn’t have existed at all (and thus would have been better off) if I hadn’t biologically created them in the first place.

Our existence is certainly God’s responsibility but that doesn’t exonerate us from our evil decisions. Their “eternal torment” is an unbalanced description of their choice of absolute freedom to live for themselves which has compensations you have repeatedly ignored. Your objection is undermined by the fact that **no one would opt for undiluted misery. **

But it is a question of risk in the sense that we do not know if we have been “given the grace of final perseverance” until we’re already dead. For all any of us know, we’ll be continuing our chat ad infinitum whilst being tormented forever and forever!

Our ignorance doesn’t matter in the slightest because we are ones who determine whether we are given the grace of final perseverance.

To me it would seem that “total independence” would require both omnipotence and omniscience, so I’m not sure what you mean.

Total independence within our obvious limitations…

So, I’m guessing you are of the opinion that most humans spend time in purgatory rather than eternal hell? I think this is a minority opinion among the saints, popes, doctors, and councils of the Roman Catholic church. Maybe you’re right. Let’s hope so

.
Time doesn’t exist in the spiritual life. Terms used to describe purgatory are symbolic.

So, you’re saying that hell offers a degree of fulfillment? It’s just a somewhat unpleasant place where everyone gets to indulge all of their vices? Just a slightly uncomfortable, maybe not-so-nice place for people to experience “total independence?” Everyone wants to be there, and the punishments are only self-inflicted? How does that jive with “the lake of fire?” or the “outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth?” Just some good ol’ Jewish hyperbole? Maybe! Then again…maybe eternal torment as defined by the RCC is a result of the same mistake…maybe the “eternal” aspect of hell is annihilation (which never ends of course). Many Jews believed just that. Maybe Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism, or pagan mystery cults influenced early believers and tainted their concept of “hell.” Possible no?

The weakness of your objections is that they are have no bearing whatsoever on the consequences of utter selfishness in this world - which is the best indication of what will happen after death. There are people who are already in a hell of their own making which may well be a prelude to their ultimate existence unless they change their ways. And others of course who have a foretaste of heaven because their unselfish love for others liberates them from vices which bring them misery.

To create us in His own image implies that we are eternal and indestructible.

This isn’t good enough evidence. I might as well say “to create us in his own image we have to be omnipotent and omniscient.”

It is an evasion to suggest “in His image” implies being identical in every respect. How else do you explain our autonomy, insight and creative power?

Are you saying God doesn’t have the freedom to annihilate? Are you saying it isn’t in his nature? What of drowning the whole earth? What of killing the first-born of the Egyptians? What of the Amalekites? What of sodom and gomorrah?

Only Fundamentalists interpret the Old Testament literally.

 

[tonyrey]

I think there are other anthropologies that have equal explanatory power to the RC version of the “original sin” theory. In humanity I see suffering caused by a mistaken quest for happiness. To be sure, some people think power is their happiness, and maybe these people cause the most harm, I don’t know. But, suffice it to say that the RC “original sin” postulate is by no means the most convincing explanation for the human condition, in my opinion.

Not all evil can be explained by ignorance. Otherwise all punishment is unjust. What** is **the most convincing explanation of the human condition?

There is no doubt that hell is evil! It is not unfair because no one is compelled to be evil.

This is what no one seems to understand. Hopefully the careful reader will get it:
We may not be compelled to be evil, but we are compelled to exist!!!

Precisely how can we be given a choice whether to exist?

We are compelled to exist, by a being who knows infallibly, before we exist, that we will choose to be evil and incur unending punishment…and yet he chooses to create anyway. That makes this being an “accessory before the fact.” For anyone well versed in this argument, they will know that this argument is neither original to me nor particularly well stated. But, I have never seen a satisfactory response to this particular issue.

You overlooking the principle of choosing the lesser evil. We are not isolated individuals but members of a universal community who are deeply affected by the decisions of others. The immense complexity of our relationships makes it impossible for us to judge who should or shouldn’t exist. It is highly presumptuous to condemn the Creator for being “an accessory before the fact” without even knowing for certain the precise degree of pleasure and misery experienced in hell. What is certain is that co-existence with those who reject God’s love is impossible for anyone who loves God. They isolate themselves but they are not compelled to do so, as you have insinuated, and they are prepared to pay the price. It would be unjust if everyone shared the same destiny regardless of their treatment of others. As I pointed out, there is abundant evidence that heaven and hell begin in this world and no reason to believe any sane person wishes to cease to exist for all eternity. How do explain the deep-rooted belief in justice even among children if it just a human convention? Is it reasonable to suppose everyone shares the same fate after death regardless of how they have behaved? Extinction for example? Or universal happiness?

 

[Bradski]

They would be only deprived of the opportunity of life in this world - which wouldn’t be an irrevocable disadvantage whereas Bryant wouldn’t exist in any shape or form.

We are talking of the potential descendants of the people whom Bryant murdered. And you say they would only be deprived of life in THIS world? Hang on. Let me get my head around this…

You are saying that if someone is killed before they have progeny, their non-existent descendants will have a life in another world? What the…? There are non existent people in heaven? It’s not just full of all the good people who have ever lived. It’s full of people who have never lived as well.

That is the weirdest thing you have yet suggested.

Precisely! That is why the objection is worthless. It is not for us with our limited insight and knowledge to decide who should be born. We don’t know, for example, how many people benefited from Bryant’s life before he went beserk.

Well, I think we do. His life was examined in minute detail and cannot be described as anything other than a tragedy for all concerned. He was a sadistic loner who brought nothing but despair and harm to all those close to him. If there ever was a life less worth living, his was it.

That in comparison to the 35 he killed (some were children), many more he injured and the countless who were left traumatised and grief stricken.

I think the ledger shows quite clearly what his life was worth and how much suffering would have been saved had he not lived. But will he go to hell? Well, he has the mental capacity of an eleven year old, so maybe he isn’t fully aware of the consequences and will perhaps repent in any case.

Hey, that’ll mean he’ll end up in heaven with all his victims. And, would you credit it, all the non-existent descendants of his victims as well.

‘Hi, I’m Martin. And you are…?’
‘Peter. I’m the son that the twelve year old girl you shot in the head never had the opportunity of having’.
‘Hey, how is your mum? The last time I saw her she was just this high’.

Heaven and hell. What wonderful concepts…

We may not be compelled to be evil, but we are compelled to exist!!! We are compelled to exist, by a being who knows infallibly, before we exist, that we will choose to be evil and incur unending punishment…and yet he chooses to create anyway. That makes this being an “accessory before the fact.” For anyone well versed in this argument, they will know that this argument is neither original to me nor particularly well stated. But, I have never seen a satisfactory response to this particular issue.

You and me both.

Your name is Bryant. You just got married. You are looking forward to having a son. You will call him Martin. Then you have a glimpse of Port Arthur on the day of the massacre.

You see the people being shot at point blank range, husbands trying to protect their wives, women trying to protect their children. You see him follow the twelve year old girl as she runs from her murdered mother and baby sister and you watch as your son kills her as she cries.

Do you have that son? Because, hey, it won’t be your fault if you do. You’ll teach him to make his own mind up about things and if he chooses to do evil, then who can blame you!

I would have literally gone insane from grief if I knew for a fact my father were in hell.

As indeed would anyone. Draw your own conclusions…

 

[tonyrey]

They would be only deprived of the opportunity of life in this world - which wouldn’t be an irrevocable disadvantage whereas Bryant wouldn’t exist in any shape or form.

It is a genuine possibility that the people murdered by Bryant would have had descendants in this world if they hadn’t been murdered. Why not? What’s the obstacle? At one stage we were all non-existent! Does that mean we could never come into existence?

But I meant Bryant’s** victims **were not deprived of life in the next world whereas Bryant would have been deprived of life altogether.

It is not for us with our limited insight and knowledge to decide who should be born. We don’t know, for example, how many people benefited from Bryant’s life before he went beserk.

Well, I think we do. His life was examined in minute detail and cannot be described as anything other than a tragedy for all concerned. He was a sadistic loner who brought nothing but despair and harm to all those close to him. If there ever was a life less worth living, his was it.

That in comparison to the 35 he killed (some were children), many more he injured and the countless who were left traumatised and grief stricken.

I think the ledger shows quite clearly what his life was worth and how much suffering would have been saved had he not lived. But will he go to hell? Well, he has the mental capacity of an eleven year old, so maybe he isn’t fully aware of the consequences and will perhaps repent in any case.

Hey, that’ll mean he’ll end up in heaven with all his victims. And, would you credit it, all the non-existent descendants of his victims as well.

‘Hi, I’m Martin. And you are…?’
‘Peter. I’m the son that the twelve year old girl you shot in the head never had the opportunity of having’.
‘Hey, how is your mum? The last time I saw her she was just this high’.

Heaven and hell. What wonderful concepts.

A big happy family! But of course we all vanish regardless of how we have lived - and all talk of justice is sheer baloney. It doesn’t make any difference how we behave. We’re naked apes that exist by sheer chance for no reason or purpose whatsoever. Schopenhauer was right: it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet…

 

[Aloysium]

When it’s said that it would have been better if someone had not been born, what is meant is that the person’s actions and their consequence are very bad. Literally the comment is meaningless. Consider yourself - it is impossible that you could not exist, because you do. Now, it is up to you to decide what you will do with your life, with the cards granted to you. Now you can whine it away, caught up in some paranoid illusion of reality, you can take a clear look at the world around you and try to make it better. Are you going to be a disappointment to God, who made you, who knows all your strengths and weaknesses, who knows the choices you’ve encountered and the how’s and whys you chose them. Who you make yourself is who you are; there’s always an opportunity to change until time runs out. One life; what will you do with it? Who will you become?

 

[Bradski]

When it’s said that it would have been better if someone had not been born, what is meant is that the person’s actions and their consequence are very bad. Literally the comment is meaningless.

So if you are Bryant’s potential father and you knew the outcome of his life, you knew he would massacre so many, do you still have a son?

Or let me put it another way. If you did have that son, knowing what was going to happen, how do you think people would feel about you?

 

[Bradski]

A big happy family!

Isn’t it?

Don’t you get to meet the guy who tortured, raped and killed your infant? He repented! Now you get the chance to forgive him. Now you get to know what good came of it. And all the mothers who watched as their babies heads were smashed against a tree in the camp outside Pnom Penh (don’t go there after heavy rain because you get bone fragments washed out of the ground). They can chat with the guy who did it (he was just following orders…had to save bullets) because he repented as well. He’s over there talking to Pol Pot himself. Another repenter.

One big happy family.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

OK I am done after this, because despite my attempts to make this abundantly clear, I seem to fail.

God is not to blame for our choices (well, maybe a little bit depending upon your opinion of “free will” and “grace”)…God is to blame for our existence in the first place.

Correct.

Either that or we wouldn’t exist at all.

With existence, in our case, comes a choice.

Are you going to act like Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler? For God or for the devil? There’s no third option.

It’s your choice.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Isn’t it?

Don’t you get to meet the guy who tortured, raped and killed your infant? He repented! Now you get the chance to forgive him. Now you get to know what good came of it. And all the mothers who watched as their babies heads were smashed against a tree in the camp outside Pnom Penh (don’t go there after heavy rain because you get bone fragments washed out of the ground). They can chat with the guy who did it (he was just following orders…had to save bullets) because he repented as well. He’s over there talking to Pol Pot himself. Another repenter.

One big happy family.

A couple of points - the infants are still spiritually alive. So are their murderers.

Where they are now though is a moot point - if the repentance was not sincere, the murderer will be in hell for eternity. The infants would almost certainly be in heaven, not having had the chance to commit any grave sins.

What you’re protesting about is** human evil, **and nothing else. God’s not responsible for that - we are, encouraged by the devil.

And we’ll answer for it too.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

When it’s said that it would have been better if someone had not been born, what is meant is that the person’s actions and their consequence are very bad. Literally the comment is meaningless. Consider yourself - it is impossible that you could not exist, because you do. Now, it is up to you to decide what you will do with your life, with the cards granted to you. Now you can whine it away, caught up in some paranoid illusion of reality, you can take a clear look at the world around you and try to make it better. Are you going to be a disappointment to God, who made you, who knows all your strengths and weaknesses, who knows the choices you’ve encountered and the how’s and whys you chose them. Who you make yourself is who you are; there’s always an opportunity to change until time runs out. One life; what will you do with it? Who will you become?

No, I mean that the person themselves would have been better off if they had never existed, since, in my opinion, non-existence is better than eternal damnation.

Further, God cannot be disappointed, because he knows everything infallibly. Disappointment requires ignorance. Yes, I agree that we “make ourselves who we are” to some extent. But, we are not responsible for our own existence in the first place, therefore God rightly shoulders some of the moral blame or praise if we are evil or good.

 

[PRmerger]

But, we are not responsible for our own existence in the first place, therefore God rightly shoulders some of the moral blame or praise if we are evil or good.

Only in the sense that you would be responsible for the moral blame if you bore a child who ended up being a mass murderer. You always know that’s a possibility, right?

But I think any person with even a rudimentary understanding of free will grasps that you are not responsible for your adult son’s choices, in any meaningful way.

And, again, God is in the Eternal Now, so there is no such thing as God knowing what your son “will do”. It’s all happening in the Now.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

As I awoke I thought of the most basic and simple way I can think of to express the issue here.

1. Eternal torment is contingent upon sin
2. Sin is contingent upon human choice
3. Human choice is contingent upon existence
4. Existence is solely the continuous work of God

Therefore, at bottom, God is morally responsible for the infinite evil of hell. Hell is infinitely evil because no “greater good” emerges from it which would balance unending torment.

What does the RCC say is necessary for a mortal sin? 1) Grave matter 2) Full knowledge 3) Sufficient Freedom

1. Eternal torment is most certainly a grave evil
2. God is omniscient, so has full knowledge of the souls in hell at all times (the “eternal now”)
3. God is omnipotent and thus has complete freedom in a way far surpassing any human being, and could have chosen not to call into existence those who are in hell

God must, therefore, be at least significantly responsible for the unspeakable horror of eternal hell, given the RCC’s account of morality/metaphysics. This makes God seem like a morally evil monster, but that is impossible, therefore something about either hell or God must be fundamentally untrue. Atheists say that God’s existence is the untruth. I assert that hell’s eternity is untrue. If hell were proportional, retributive, or restorative, it would be just. Eternal torment can never be just, in my opinion.

We don’t have to “throw out the baby with the bath water.” Hell can still be a horrific place of temporary, proportional punishment in retribution for our sins and willful rejection of God’s mercy. He can torment us and then annihilate us (if we truly hate him and want nothing to do with him) while the blessed victims of our sins cheer and cry tears of joy. We can keep our absolute, divine morality. We can keep our free will. But, this alternative won’t make everyone think that God is unspeakably evil.

Prove me wrong. There have been no successful attempts here, to my understanding. Maybe I’m just a bit slow, or willfully ignorant. To my mind, all that has been done here is the proposal of various kinds of heresies or totally unwarranted beliefs to avoid the central issue. I suppose I’m among like-minds in that sense.

Tonyrey, I think you have tried to suggest that hell maybe isn’t so bad afterall, so no issue. I disagree, and I suppose it can’t be proven either way.

PRMerger, you seem to think hardly anyone goes to hell anyway, so no issue. I disagree, and I suppose it can’t be proven either way.

Further, I am by no means a fundamentalist regarding scripture. I do not believe God actually killed everyone on the earth in a flood, or ordered the slaughter of an entire race of people. But, I do believe that the scriptures are meant to tell us, in an indirect way, about the nature of God. I believe that the God of the bible would have no qualms about utterly annihilating his sworn enemies, and I believe he does just that, when all is said and done.

And, punishment is most assuredly still just even in the case of ignorance. People punish children and “sorry judge, I didn’t know the law” is no excuse. You may get a lighter sentence if the court cannot prove “Mens Rea” but you will still be justly punished for breaking the law and/or harming others.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . in my opinion, non-existence is better than eternal damnation . . . God cannot be disappointed, because he knows everything infallibly. Disappointment requires ignorance. Yes, I agree that we “make ourselves who we are” to some extent. But, we are not responsible for our own existence in the first place, therefore God rightly shoulders some of the moral blame or praise if we are evil or good.

.

I’m not sure I can explain this.

You exist. That is reality. There are no other options. This life is suffering, wherein lies the cure? Not in whining about it for sure. Try to alleviate other’s suffering if there is nothing you can do about your own. Nonexistence, when there is so much to be done? You are merely speculating, but what would it say about a person who would choose to live by such values?

Perdition is simply being the person one has made oneself; it is ultimately a failure to repent.

As to God’s disappointment, you should reflect on what is the reality of free will and Divine omnipotence and omniscience. Outside a personal relationship with God, it seems a contradiction. Within that relationship it all makes sense. Faced with the reality of Love as the ultimate Foundation and the End of our journey, we are all going to fail, some more than others; God is all merciful and forgiving, welcoming all who seek Him.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Only in the sense that you would be responsible for the moral blame if you bore a child who ended up being a mass murderer. You always know that’s a possibility, right?

But I think any person with even a rudimentary understanding of free will grasps that you are not responsible for your adult son’s choices, in any meaningful way.

And, again, God is in the Eternal Now, so there is no such thing as God knowing what your son “will do”. It’s all happening in the Now.

No, this is incorrect! God’s moral responsibility far surpasses mine because he lives in the “eternal now” and knows everything.

I do not know if my child will become evil.

God has always and will always know if my child will become evil.

God lives in the “eternal now” with full knowledge and complete power. He chooses to hold everything in existence at all times. At any moment, he could let go and we would be blotted out from existence. That he chooses not to do this for the souls being tormented endlessly in hell, is unconscionable.

His knowledge, coupled with his omnipotence are precisely what make him guilty (given the RCC’s account).

I am becoming exasperated because I continue to fail to express what I think is an obvious and clear problem. I apologize for my tone if it is offensive to anyone.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

…God lives in the “eternal now” with full knowledge and complete power. He chooses to hold everything in existence at all times. At any moment, he could let go and we would be blotted out from existence. That he chooses not to do this for the souls being tormented endlessly in hell, is unconscionable.

…His knowledge, coupled with his omnipotence are precisely what make him guilty (given the RCC’s account)…
.

God’s given us clear warnings. If someone sticks up a warning sign eg. “sharks offshore”, and you just go in the water and get eaten, who are you going to blame?

Note that these just some of the Gospel warnings, most often quoted by Christ himself. There’s plenty more from the other New Testament and Old Testament documents. Which is why I get annoyed with the comment Hell is merely the absence of God. I get a rather vivid picture of punishment from my reading. I had to edit to save space.

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:43-48
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. …

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

John 5:29
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 16:26-27
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, ***and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

---

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Mark 9:48-49
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

[Aloysium]

No, this is incorrect! God’s moral responsibility far surpasses mine because he lives in the “eternal now” and knows everything.. . .

It upsets you to imagine people suffering eternally.
To see them suffer thusly would be hell for you.

Now you are going on about blame, so (piutting on my Dr. Phil hat :tiphat this could be simply anxiety arising form neurotic conflict, guilt/resentment.

On the other hand, maybe it is a message about all the people you could be helping right here and now, that you will never be able to, ever, for all eternity, when time runs out.

God is Love, get on with it.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you kidding me. IF he repented? Are you seriously suggesting that someone would choose not just a lifetime of torment, but eternal torment, rather than repent?

I think it’s clear that we all choose to do really bad things, despite knowing that there may be some really bad consequences…but we choose to do them anyway.

http://media.recovery.org/wp-content/uploads/crystal-meth-addiction.jpg

So it’s not too hard to extrapolate from our bad choices now to our bad choice in eternity.

IOW: we choose hell every day, every single time we sin.

(And let’s set aside the discussion whether addiction is a disease. Let’s just start with that decision to try meth–the first time, or the second time…)