The Fear of Hell

[PRmerger]

You must be confusing me with someone who thinks that we are all born equal. Which is an odd notion, to put it mildly. We are all slaves to our genetic inheritance. I guess we all have a limited opportunity to make the best of the cards that are dealt, but no, we are not all born equally.

However, the very concept of justice demands that we should be treated equally

Ummm…no, Bradski.

If we are not all equal, the “very concept of justice” demands that we should be treated…

unequally.

Right?

I mean, doesn’t that make sense?

Justice means giving people what they are due. And if people are not equal (your claim, not mine, nor any Christian’s), then they don’t deserve to be treated equally.

That seems pretty obvious, no?

 

[PRmerger]

Human memories are not to be compared to a toy truck!

Why not?

They make us “us,” particularly when both the consciousness, and the natural body have been lost.

I am not my memories, Eddie.

And neither are you.

And, whatever anybody may say, no-one has “memories” of hell; therefore there would be no need to erase anybody’s memories.

ICXC NIKA.

I don’t think you’ve kept up with the conversation.

The point of the possibility of “erased memories” is that someone posited that we can’t be truly happy in heaven if we’re aware of loved ones who are in hell.

Therefore, perhaps, as Fr. Groeschel suggests, we simply forget that we ever knew our loved one who is in hell.

 

[GEddie]

You may not be your memories, but they make you “you.”

I mean,

Take away your body…

And your stream of consciousness…

And the memory, and what at all would be left of you?

A ball of spiritual nothing without a body or memories would be indistinguishable from any other!

To tell the truth, I have never thought much about the issue of family members in Hell. But methinks we would be wise enough that we’d understand why they had to be there. It’s no faith issue for me.

ICXC NIKA

 

[PRmerger]

You must be confusing me with someone who thinks that we are all born equal. Which is an odd notion, to put it mildly. We are all slaves to our genetic inheritance. I guess we all have a limited opportunity to make the best of the cards that are dealt, but no, we are not all born equally.

However, the very concept of justice demands that we should be treated equally.

I’m still scratching my head at this assertion.

Let’s put your assertion into more concrete terms.

So let’s take 2 unequal things:

This:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

and this:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Are you really proposing that we treat the used, dirty tissue equal to this magnificent altar?

 

[PRmerger]

You may not be your memories, but they make you “you.”

I am no less of a person because I lost my memories of what happened to me from birth to age 3, Eddie.

I am no less of a person because I can’t remember what I wanted to wear for my 4th grade school picture, before I wore what my mother made me wear.

I am no less of a person because I can’t remember if I had artificial flowers or real flowers at my wedding.

No, my memories do not make me “me”. And loss of a certain number of memories do not make me any less of a person.

 

[GEddie]

I am no less of a person because I lost my memories of what happened to me from birth to age 3, Eddie.

I am no less of a person because I can’t remember what I wanted to wear for my 4th grade school picture, before I wore what my mother made me wear.

I am no less of a person because I can’t remember if I had artificial flowers or real flowers at my wedding.

No, my memories do not make me “me”. And loss of a certain number of memories do not make me any less of a person.

But losing them ALL would be a different matter.

Even all those idiotic movies about amnesia premise the victim becoming a “different person” as a result.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[PRmerger]

Imagine me asking PR if she was worried about her children going to hell and she responded: ‘Not really, because if they do end up there, God will make me forget about them, so I’ll be fine’.

Actually, there’s no need to speculate what I would say. I’m right here.

Here’s how the conversation ensues:

Bradski: Aren’t you worried, PR, about your children going to hell?

PR: No, Brad. I am not worried. The entire Christian ethos is about hope. “Be not afraid” is our mantra. I certainly hope for their salvation, my salvation, the salvation of DH, your salvation, as well as the salvation of the entire world.

In fact, dear Brad, if you were more familiar with Catholicism, you would know that we have already won. Sin was defeated with Christ’s passion, death and resurrection–we were saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved.

We remain joyful, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

But losing them ALL would be a different matter.

Sure. That’s true.

How does that apply in the context of this discussion on our loved ones in hell?

 

[GEddie]

Sure. That’s true.

How does that apply in the context of this discussion on our loved ones in hell?

Because you were maintaining that our memories will be erased to prevent our awareness of such.

Really, the prospect of amnesia frightens me MORE than family members possibly going to Hell; I am unaware of any who are more likely than I to go there.

ICXC NIKA

 

[PRmerger]

Because you were maintaining that our memories will be erased to prevent our awareness of such.

Firstly, I was speculating about the possibility.

Secondly, you do understand that it is simply the memory of a loved one who is in hell, right? Not our aggregate memories.

Not sure why you believe that removal of that memory–only 1 person out of all of our memories–would equate to loss of our personhood in its entirety.

And remember, this is only IF our loved one is indeed in hell. And what are the chances of that?

Probably pretty slim, personally speaking.

 

[GEddie]

OK, correction taken.

I thought you were arguing for total erasure of our minds after death.

I guess I shouldn’t reenter a conversation after having been out of it without reading the whole thing…

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bradski]

Justice means giving people what they are due. And if people are not equal (your claim, not mine, nor any Christian’s), then they don’t deserve to be treated equally.

Being equal means being the same. Having equal worth. One not being better or worse than the other. On any criteria you’d like to mention, one person will be better than the other. And that irrespective of your definition of ‘better’, even if it’s entirely subjective.

We all have the ability to improve the hand we are dealt, but that simply means becoming better than someone who doesn’t make the effort. And even if you don’t succeed, surely the person who tries is the better person?

Being treated equally has to be enshrined in the law because we know that the drug dealing, wife beating racist isn’t equal to the charity worker but justice demands that they both be treated equally. Even past criminal records are not admissible in court because of this.

The point of the possibility of “erased memories” is that someone posited that we can’t be truly happy in heaven if we’re aware of loved ones who are in hell.

Therefore, perhaps, as Fr. Groeschel suggests, we simply forget that we ever knew our loved one who is in hell.

This leads to all sorts of bizarre scenarios. Do you only remember those who didn’t go to hell? Do other people remember them? If you’re in heaven and you remember you had two children, how could you be sure of that? If someone you know dies, would you prefer not to know if they went to heaven?

In fact, you’d have to not know if anyone was in hell. I don’t care how little you knew them, or even if you didn’t know them at all, I propose that if you knew someone was being tormented every second of every hour of every day for year upon year you would not be able to function normally.

The thing is, treating hell as being apart from God or simple non-existence works perfectly well for those who believe in God and are looking forward to heaven. But…it ain’t going to work for those who don’t believe in God or heaven and entirely accept that they will cease to exist when the time comes.

They don’t believe in the carrot and the stick holds no fear. So you need a bigger stick. The thing is, it got so big as to be a risible concept.

And no-one want to suggest someone deserving of torment for eternity? Real or fictitious, I don’t mind. I mean, there must be someone down there. Who do you think it is?

 

[PRmerger]

And no-one want to suggest someone deserving of torment for eternity? Real or fictitious, I don’t mind. I mean, there must be someone down there. Who do you think it is?

Well, my co-worker talks about her grandfather who dragged his wife through the house by her hair, simply because his dinner wasn’t to his liking.

By. her. hair.

It seems to me that justice demands that he be in hell.

Don’t you think so, Bradski?

But then, again, I can’t see into his heart. I don’t know the entirety of his life, his psyche, his spirit, his history, his remorse, his attempts to atone for this action…

But what do you think, Bradski, should happen to someone like this (with the concession, of course, that there is a God and there is an immortal soul)?

 

[PRmerger]

OK, correction taken.

I thought you were arguing for total erasure of our minds after death.

I guess I shouldn’t reenter a conversation after having been out of it without reading the whole thing…

ICXC NIKA

:tiphat:

 

[GEddie]

Well, my co-worker talks about her grandfather who dragged his wife through the house by her hair, simply because his dinner wasn’t to his liking.

By. her. hair.

It seems to me that justice demands that he be in hell.

Don’t you think so, Bradski?

What if the man subsequently repented?

ICXC NIKA

 

[PRmerger]

This leads to all sorts of bizarre scenarios. Do you only remember those who didn’t go to hell? Do other people remember them? If you’re in heaven and you remember you had two children, how could you be sure of that? If someone you know dies, would you prefer not to know if they went to heaven?

All mildly interesting questions…

analogous to a 5 yr old asking,“Do I think about my toy truck when I’m in my marriage bed, but just don’t want it anymore?”

“Do 5 yr olds who are alive when I’m 25 want their toy trucks even though you say I won’t want mine?”

“If someone I know actually does bring his toy truck to his bed with him, would I want know about it when I’m married?”

…and I suppose if I were this little boy’s mom I would try to entertain these questions. Although I think the answers would be meaningless to this boy who simply cannot apprehend the beauty and love he will enjoy in the marital embrace.

 

[PRmerger]

What if the man subsequently repented?

ICXC NIKA

Egg-zactly.

(Did you see my “but then again” remark on post #382?)

 

[PRmerger]

Being equal means being the same. Having equal worth.

You are correct. That’s what we Christians mean by all human persons being equal–that is, they all have equal worth.

One not being better or worse than the other

Yes. In their worth and dignity.

But you don’t believe that, correct?

You believe we are UNEQUAL, and therefore some folks have more dignity and worth than others.

And yet you make the very, very illogical assertion that “justice demands” that we treat unequal things equally.



Can you please explain how “justice demands” that I treat a used kleenex the same way that I treat my wedding ring?

My definition of justice seems that I give things what they are rightfully due.

And if things are UNEQUAL, they SHOULD NOT be treated equally.

That just seems obvious to me.

But not to you?

Being treated equally has to be enshrined in the law because we know that the drug dealing, wife beating racist isn’t equal to the charity worker but justice demands that they both be treated equally. Even past criminal records are not admissible in court because of this.

So they are not equal in dignity and worth, simply because they are a human creature?

Can you give a list of people that you believe are beneath you in dignity and worth?
As well as a list of people that are above you in dignity and worth (presuming, of course, that you don’t believe you’re at the top of the heap and that you have room for improvement?)

 

[GEddie]

Equality, it has been said, is medicine, not food.

Human beings are not innately equal: not in their bodies nor in their minds; but in the sphere of legal justice, must be treated as though they were; else the experience of hundreds of generations where culprits got off just for being blood to “somebody”, while the innocent were punished for being “nobody”, would be reasserted.

Also, the political sphere must assume equality, else we’d again have rule on behalf of the few at the expense of everybody. We’re getting there anyway.

But the standard of equality is there to correct injustice, not because it is objectively true.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[PRmerger]

Therefore, we will no longer be ourselves in heaven in any meaningful sense. If we have no memories, then we’re not us! This seems obvious to me.

Are you sure you don’t want to re-think this, Pumpkin?

Your memories today are surely different than the memories you had in, say, 2008, when you first joined CAFs.

And I don’t mean that you’ve simply accumulated more memories from 2008 to 2015.

I mean that what your memories in 2008, of, say, what you ate for breakfast in 2007, are different from the memories you currently have. That is, while you may have remembered something that occurred in 2007 in 2008, you have no memory of this today.

Are you really saying that you are a completely different person today because your memories are different than in 2008. If so, who were you in 2008? And who are you now?

How have you changed ontologically due to your different memories?

Answer: you have changed NOT AT ALL. You were PumpkinCookie in 2008.

You are PumpkinCookie in 2015, even if you have no recollection of what you ate for breakfast in 2007.

And you’ll be PumpkinCookie in heaven, even if you have no memories of your mom.